twoscoops
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My sandwich trade - why I'm saying goodbye to it.This post is very long, but I’m so glad I’ve got it all off my chest!
I’ve been making sandwiches here for two years next month, and have decided to wind-up the operation on April 30th. When I went through the plan with my accountant we were looking at £200 net in my back pocket every week, which would have been great. Plus the bonus of the add-ons, not just drinks and crisps but my other sock items. However, I decided I didn’t want to sell a load of rubbish, and I used my existing suppliers of good quality ham, beef, turkey, salami & cheese in the fillings. This is the stuff I was selling anyway, so it made sense to use them and in turn sell more which would give me better buying power. I also buy very good quality bread, as my landlord won’t let me cook on the premises. I launched it with printed menus and a car-full of free sandwiches which I took around local businesses. That really worked, and coupled with the strong tourist trade we get here the sandwiches took off and our turnover has been OK, if only 10% of my entire business. The problem is that I didn’t keep a balance sheet for this end of the shop to monitor the profitability – very bad of me, but it was a mistake and the man who never made a mistake never made anything. Over the two years I’ve really enjoyed making sandwiches – I really love having a laugh with the punters and flirting with the girls. It has also made me very proud that my sandwiches are the best in town – everybody knows it and they tell me.
We had an OK Christmas trading period, same as everybody, but I got into January, paid my bills and wondered why I had no money in the bank. I started to suspect I was doing something wrong with the sandwich business, so I bought a book called How to run a Sandwich-Coffee bar. I read it over a couple of days and realised that I was doing everything right (apart from making up sandwiches ready for people to pick up and buy) but decided to create a second bookkeeping spreadsheet just for sandwiches, monitor it until September when the tourist season winds down and make a decision to keep it going or possibly knock it on the head at the end of the year. The result of just monitoring it for a couple of months was terrifying. The balance sheet included all the income which goes through the sandwich till, but the outgoings don’t include my buying of the non-sandwich related items which people sometimes take as well, which makes it even less profitable. So I went to see my accountant again who told me that firstly my baguettes were too big, I was too generous with the fillings and the fillings were too good. Well he is absolutely right, but I already knew most of what he was telling me.
Now, I’ve got long term plans for my business, and everything I do here has to be about quality for it to develop and succeed. I could easily overhaul the lunch business and turn it into a profitable one with cheaper ingredients, but I don’t want to. I’ve got nothing against anyone who makes a living from sandwiches but I don’t want to go down that road.
Because this is my business I’m passionate about making sandwiches, and while it is relatively easy to find nice ladies to work here who are interested in food and talking about ingredients etc it is very difficult to inspire passion in people where making sandwiches are concerned. So you hire someone who is bright, which they have to be if you want them to understand your philosophy, you train them and very quickly they get bored. So you have to keep finding new staff. Also, running the sandwich area is an all day job, a lot of prep in the morning, a busy hour and a half at lunchtime and a lot of cleaning in the afternoon. If we were in a big town we would probably have people coming in for sandwiches all day, but this is a relatively small country town and everybody gets a break in the middle of the day. So everybody wants their product at about the same time, and we make them to order. We have an internet phone line just for sandwiches, which helps sometimes when people phone before 12, but when they phone at 1.15 we can’t answer it, as we have a queue of people in front of us (what do they think we’re doing at that time, standing about scratching our heads?!!).
I sat down and started writing this at about 1.30, as we had sold out of bread for sandwiches (highly unusual, we usually have to throw some away) and got up a couple of times to disappoint a couple of regulars. Then another regular came in, I told him I had no bread and he went to the local supermarket, bought some, brought it back and I made 2 sarnies for him.
As the business owner I don’t have a salary, so when I’m helping the sandwich lass, which I have to do every day when it gets busy, that is taking me away from more important work. And yet I still have to do the buying for the sandwiches, deal with problems like the meat slicer going wrong which we use to slice the fillings, getting an engineer to come and fix the sandwich fridge (both those things happened in the last month and are expensive to fix), buying the consumables like napkins, paper bags, soup cups and looking after the risk management.. Even with a full time person looking after the sandwich area it takes up a huge amount of my time. Also, I’ve been here for just over two years and I’m not building this shop any more, I’m managing it, so I could hire a manager and I can move on and start to develop my brand.
So there will be a meat slicer and 2x 1.5 metre serveover fridges going on ebay in May, just in case you were thinking of opening a sandwich bar! In seriousness it is bloody hard work, but you can make a living out of it,
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Jonnyboy
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Sounds like you made the right choice, and you have learned a lot in the process.
I'm really chuffed that the rest of your business is doing well, how about an update on that?
Cheers
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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Thanx for putting all that. Very interesting.
We've called in to the shop when travelling and been very impressed with it. As Jonnyboy says - how's the rest doing?
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twoscoops
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I didn't know you had been in?! Yes going great thanks, will be featured on Come Dine With Me on C4 soon.
Other things I forgot to mention...
I want my shop to look beautiful all of the time (it makes people buy more) - another time issue
We can focus more on selling cheese (a piece of cheese for £8 and little or no effort or a sandwich for £3?)
I can significantly reduce my wage bill and have at least one full weekend off a month (i think I've had four Saturdays off in over 2 years)
Everything said when I feel least motivated I am still more motivated than my most motivated when working for somebody else.
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vegplot
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You must have built up a large sandwhich customer base. Is this saleable or is your sandwich shop physically part of your other business?
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twoscoops
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It is in the shop but away from the main sales area. If it was in a separate unit I would certainly re-launch it, turn it into something profitable and try to sell it on.
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Jonnyboy
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| twoscoops wrote: | | Everything said when I feel least motivated I am still more motivated than my most motivated when working for somebody else. |
Brilliant, just brilliant.
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twoscoops
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When is Chez Jonnyboy opening?
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jocorless
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Having been in the sandwich business myself - I totally understand where you are coming from Twoscoops - its a shame but understandable
Lovely to hear that you are so busy though - We drove through Moreton on Marsh last year on the way to my brothers sadly we couldn't stop as we had the dog in the back of the car and it was a really hot day but I was able to notice that your shop was absolutely heaving so you must be doing something right 
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jema
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Only seen you once, but when driving through we have picked up a sandwich a couple of times. They are/were very good.
Advice on being more profitable by skimping on them seems wrong to me though.
Good advice on monitoring just what is profitable and what is not. There are parts of my business that are just not worth the time and aggravation for the profit involved.
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twoscoops
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| jocorless wrote: | | we couldn't stop as we had the dog in the back of the car and it was a really hot day |
I remember that day.
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vegplot
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| jema wrote: | | Advice on being more profitable by skimping on them seems wrong to me though. |
Indeed, couldn't agree more.
| jema wrote: | | Good advice on monitoring just what is profitable and what is not. There are parts of my business that are just not worth the time and aggravation for the profit involved. |
 Domains for one.
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twoscoops
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My accountant was looking at it from a financial point of view, and he was right, it would certainly be a solution. He made the point that people don't expect free-range beef from a local farm when they buy a sandwich, and on reflection I can see that I was making the mistake of thinking volume would automatically equal profit. I want everything I sell to be of good quality, and therefore give the perception that my business name is a quality brand.
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jema
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| vegplot wrote: |
| jema wrote: | | Good advice on monitoring just what is profitable and what is not. There are parts of my business that are just not worth the time and aggravation for the profit involved. |
Domains for one. |
I'll have you know I have made $25 in the last three years selling domains 
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dougal
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| vegplot wrote: | | jema wrote: | | Advice on being more profitable by skimping on them seems wrong to me though. |
Indeed, couldn't agree more.
... |
However, if one is truly selling a superior product, then it needs to be sold at a premium price.
However, if the market really won't pay enough, then sadly, it means that the market for the better product doesn't really exist.
Which would be sad.
Unfortunately, there is almost always a market for any product being sold uneconomically cheaply...
Was there no promotional value in getting additional sales of other products from the extra 'footfall'?
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twoscoops
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Well put. You buy a sandwich, bag of crisps, can of pop and you want change from a fiver. That's the way it is.
What do you mean by promotional value?
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sean
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I assume that Dougal means people buying their sandwich, pop and crisps, then saying "Ooh, while I'm here I'll have some cheese, anchovies, marinated olives and coffee."
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jema
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| dougal wrote: |
However, if one is truly selling a superior product, then it needs to be sold at a premium price. |
Twoscoops sarnies were I think at a fairly premium price, probably near the point where I would be unhappy paying more. I'd guess therefore the pricing was not far off optimum.
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vegplot
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| jema wrote: | | vegplot wrote: |
| jema wrote: | | Good advice on monitoring just what is profitable and what is not. There are parts of my business that are just not worth the time and aggravation for the profit involved. |
Domains for one. |
I'll have you know I have made $25 in the last three years selling domains |
You'll be ready to retire soon 
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twoscoops
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My sandwiches were all £2.45 and baguettes £2.95 (up from £2.25 and £2.75 in January). I don't think that's too bad, go to most places where they make them on the premises and the prices will range from £2.20 for cheese up to £3.50 for salmon, then go to London and we are in a different league altogether. Add to that the quality of the bread, the beef, the pesto, free-range mayo and you can see that I wouldn'ty be making as much profit as my competitors (in this town there are three supermarkets and three other places making sandwiches to order). People are certainly prepared to pay for quality, but that is more about trading up to better quality luxury food rather than every day staples.
The add-on sales do happen, but I have included them in my sandwich income. They are not that huge, maybe a packet of pasta here or a few olives sometimes.
That's another thing - sandwiches are 10% of my business but so are olives. We sell absolutely tons of them, especially at weekends, and the effort is minimal.
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vegplot
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| twoscoops wrote: | | That's another thing - sandwiches are 10% of my business but so are olives. We sell absolutely tons of them, especially at weekends, and the effort is minimal. |
On that score it's a no brainer. Did you try raising prices and seeing what effect it had on volume and turnover?
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dougal
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| sean wrote: | | I assume that Dougal means people buying their sandwich, pop and crisps, then saying "Ooh, while I'm here I'll have some cheese, anchovies, marinated olives and coffee." |
Just so. More people coming in, and buying anything else as well as a sarnie.
Sadly, if you are limited to a sales price of , say £3, then it comes down to "how good/big can I afford to make it while being businesslike".
Making the best possible sarnie, and selling it at a capped £3, just doesn't work as a business proposition.
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twoscoops
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I raised the sandwich prices in January because the price of everything is rocketing, but like I said there is only so much people are prepared to pay for a sandwich.
I went on a sales trip with my olive supplier in November and I got chatting to a guy who runs a farm shop. I told him that I was hesitant to raise the price of my olives, and that I didn't include the weight of the plastic pot. He told me that i should raise the price, as they are a quality product, far better than any you can get in a supermarket, and that I should charge for the pot (ie weigh the olives and the pot together and reach a gross weight price). So I tried it from December 1st and haven't had a single comment about it. One lady, who wasn't a regular, said they were quite expensive, and I said that they had gone up 8% and that was the first increase in 2 years. On the subject of charging for the pot I tend to agree with him now. Last year a lady, who was a bit miserable (!) came in and spent about £2 on a piece of cheese and she asked for a plastic knife. Now, if she had spent £8 I would have given her the knife, no problem, but she hadn't so I charged her 10p for it. she couldn't believe I wasn't giving it to her, so I said 'are you saying that you want a guy in China to build a factory out of the goodness of his heart, make plastic knives and get loads of people to come and work for him for nothing, and then somebody to ship it around the world for nothing because you're not prepared to pay for it. Good luck with that'.
And another thing, that was a three day sales trip to Spain to see olive oil production, you don't get that from selling sandwiches.
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RichardW
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I thought that selling product with the weight of the packing was not allowed? Or that was the advice I got from TS when i asked about our prepacked sausages. I have to program the scales with a tare weight so when we are packing the weight of the tray is not charged for (but obviously its included in our calcs of what to charge per kg) at the per kg price.
Justme
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twoscoops
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Good point, though I've not been picked up on it. I did ask a retail consultant (I didn't pay him, he's a pal) who said that as long as I indicated that the price per 100g was gross weight I had nothing to worry about. One thing I'm about to change is print new olive description labels with a disclaimer at the bottom outlining that while all efforts have been made to remove stones some may still remain. Dental bills can be expensive.
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jema
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I'm with Justme on that one, I think you are astray of the law on this.
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Slim
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reading your original post my first thought was also to raise your prices. Perhaps you can raise the prices of the your high quality sandwhiches, and experiment with lower quality ingredients at the current price. Then people can see just what they're paying for.
I obviously don't know your market at all but sometimes people want to pay more for things just to feel like they know its quality, etc...
Have you got other options to sell at lunch as well? The sandwhiches could be a bit of a loss-leader and you try to make up for it with gourmet chips (you call them crisps don't you?) gourmet coffee, and/or gourmet soft drinks.
Maybe on the time-saving side you could start requiring some or all customers to pre-order their sandwhiches? Or try a deli style set of pre-made lunch items that would make good sides or even good meals if one ordered enough? Then it's just scooping 'em into containers or on plates, ya?
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twoscoops
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Hmm, will look into the law issue, 'onestly copper.
We sell very good crisps, drinks etc, but we did anyway in the 6 months before we set up the sandwich bar. We've tried salads and things like that, they didn't turn over fast enough. I'm not sad that the sandwich business didn't work out, it is just one of those things that I'm changing, and actually it is a bit like getting this shop up and running. I'm really excited about changing things round, finding a few new products, introducing local cider & perry and reducing my wage bill (oh, my wage bill!)
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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I'm guessing one of the issues is the town itself. Tim read this and said that your sandwich business would run itself practically if you were in London. I think the point you made about the spread of custom ( all in an hour and a half slot) and type of custom actually avaliable to you in the town is probably as important as the product you're trying to sell.
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Snowball
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I am fairly sure that you can't include the weight of the pot.
In Morrisons deli, we had to put a tare on the scales, and checking the tare was correct was part of the legal audit we had to do every day.
Your sandwiches were exceptionally good. Any mileage in employing someone for a few hours in the morning and just selling them ready made?
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Jonnyboy
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| twoscoops wrote: | | My sandwiches were all £2.45 and baguettes £2.95 (up from £2.25 and £2.75 in January). . |
That's cheap. Hospital crap sarnies are £2.30 here.
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sean
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Yeah, but hospital caterers have a local monopoly.
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Jonnyboy
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| sean wrote: | | Yeah, but hospital caterers have a local monopoly. |
That's in the mace shop on site. Sainsburys crappy sarnies are similarly priced. Hell, a subway is about 4 quid.
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sean
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Not enough people care to make a premium sandwich a viable proposition though. And the one's who do care (you, for instance) probably bring in their own food.
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Jonnyboy
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Probably, but in the main I'm just responding to Jema's comment that he considered the sandwiches to be premium priced. I would venture that they are not.
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Penny
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Probably, but in the main I'm just responding to Jema's comment that he considered the sandwiches to be premium priced. I would venture that they are not. |
I don't think they are either, but it dos depend on the local competition. A premium sandwich in Cheltenham would be £4+
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sean
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I'd agree with that. Some things there's just a ceiling on what people will pay though. If the chippy where I work had been maintaining its percentage margin over the last few years fish and chips would be a tenner a portion.
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bernie-woman
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | twoscoops wrote: | | Everything said when I feel least motivated I am still more motivated than my most motivated when working for somebody else. |
Brilliant, just brilliant. |
I am so pleased for you - great to hear that the business and yourself are doing so well
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twoscoops
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As Mrs F says it is the town - just not enough people here. I could go to £3.50 for a sandwich and £3.95 for a baguette, I'm sure there would be some people who would pay it, but we just don't have the volume of people in the area to make it a viable alternative to the supermarkets and the other sandwich-making businesses, unlike Cheltenham, London etc. Like any town we've got customers with plenty of money, there just aren't enough of them who come for thier lunch.
I've decided now, it is going, and I'm not having sleepless nights anymore. I went around six or seven local-ish competitors yesterday and got pretty fired up about new products and how I can use my time better. I'm practically doing a Lionel Ritchie about the prospect of changing the shop, so I'm not now going to consider making up baguetttes in the morning for punters to pick up themselves, although it was certainly something I was considering after I read the book.
I phoned my olive supplier about weighing the pot and they told me that some of thier customers do charge and some don't, but they will look into it and let me have a definitive answer.
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Northern_Lad
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Sounds like you've got a touch of vigor back, which is always good news when it's yourself you have to motivate.
Good idea to take orders in advance - you can make them up when you're quieter and still get your regulars coming through on a near daily basis.
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wildfoodie
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hey twoscoops,
very interesting to hear of your experience re sarnies.
my 10p's worth:
in your shoes I would definitely try for a higher price and distance yourself from the supermarkets as competition. your sarnies are in a different league. similar only so far as they are lunch fodder.
the recent price increases in the foods sector have been really shocking, that is going to take a lot of getting used to for consumers, but they need to be told where the increases have come from.
in our deli (before temporary closure )we stopped offering design your own sarnies as the prep was too onerous well over a year ago: we then went to a small selection of 4-5 fillings, tried to under- rather than overestimate demand and told disappointed customers to ring and reserve in future if they couldn't be there in good time. that strategy after a few months ensured a healthy lunchtime queue, helped reduce wastage.
re olive pots they are an expense that needs to be factored in. another way round it is to increase your olive price to account for packaging. Or perhaps encourage regulars to bring their own pots?
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