Silas
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N Ireland - bring home the troops.The people of NI have voted for the DuP. The peace process is now dead in the water. I think it time we washed our hands of them and brought the troops home and leave Paisley to sort the bloody mess out by himself.
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Bernie66
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Whether the British should be in Northern Ireland is a debate in itself.
I am concerned for the peace process with the defeat of David Trimble as he came across as more moderate in his views than ian Paisley.
As with Iraq we have contributed to a situation and should see it through to the end. (I am thinking that we will still have troops in Iraq in 30 years the way it is going.)
I cannot agree that walking out would be a morally viable option at this stage, a generation is in the process of growing up without living with constant violence and that is the only way IMHO of breaking the cycle.
I am led to believe that alot of the violence is now gang related with drugs as opposed to religious or political and if this is the case then "going home" without the NI police force ready to cope on theiir own does not appear to be a solution long term.
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Silas
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Paisley has stated that the peace process is dead. He will not share a negotiationg platform with Sinn Fein and there is now no hope for a lasting peace in NI. The NI people have voted for this situation and if that is what they want, then we should just leave them to it and bring our troops home.
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Bernie66
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Sorry can't agree with that, there would or could be too many innocent live lost. As with Iraq we went into an area and cannot leave it "half done". Yes it has dragged on for too long-possibly the troops should never have gone in and or possibly we should have learned from NI before we went into Iraq i.e. have a proper exit plan before hand.
The "Bloody mess" both here and in NI is what i fear
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Andy B
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I think we should pull out and let the UN deal with it, nobody can say we haven't had a go at sorting it out.
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Silas
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If Paisley and his bunch of thugs want British help, then they should be seen to be helping themselves first by pushing forward the peace process, not stopping it dead in its tracks. I have lost patience with the bigoted idiot and if the people of NI have decided to support him - then they deserve all they get.
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Bernie66
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Trust me, I am in no way a fan of Ian Paisley. Only around 22% of the people who are eligible to vote in this general election voted for Labour to return to power and i would imagine a similar proportion in NI actually voted for the Paisley party DUP. That ,if my reckoning is correct leaves around 78% to be left to their "bloody mess". Is that deemed to be moral by the British government who have to take some responsibility for the way NI is now
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jema
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I find mysefl wondering if this will in a roundabout way create movement in the peace process?
It was easy for Unionists to throw rocks at Trimble, as he was in a thankless position. Now those doing the damage have the responsibility and that will I think scare a lot of people, it scares me 
Next time around sanity may prevail in a big way...
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Bernie66
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Next time around sanity may prevail in a big way...[/quote]
Lets hope and pray the young people in NI can start to live life in some semblance of normality. Old wounds take a while to heal but if the youngsters see no violence for a generation there is hope for the future
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Silas
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| Bernie66 wrote: | | Trust me, I am in no way a fan of Ian Paisley. Only around 22% of the people who are eligible to vote in this general election voted for Labour to return to power and i would imagine a similar proportion in NI actually voted for the Paisley party DUP. That ,if my reckoning is correct leaves around 78% to be left to their "bloody mess". Is that deemed to be moral by the British government who have to take some responsibility for the way NI is now |
Thing is, in this country all we do is vote for the party we want to balls it all up this time - over there it is a bit more important!
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Bernie66
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| Silas wrote: | | Bernie66 wrote: | | Trust me, I am in no way a fan of Ian Paisley. Only around 22% of the people who are eligible to vote in this general election voted for Labour to return to power and i would imagine a similar proportion in NI actually voted for the Paisley party DUP. That ,if my reckoning is correct leaves around 78% to be left to their "bloody mess". Is that deemed to be moral by the British government who have to take some responsibility for the way NI is now |
Thing is, in this country all we do is vote for the party we want to balls it all up this time - over there it is a bit more important! |
OK, it would appear to be, but having lived with no end of violence for so many generations it probably has become part of status quo to them as opposed to something which actually seems to have an end in sight. Its amazing what some of the things societys puts up with as a norm across the world that we would not put up with if it was sudenly put upon us
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Silas
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Yes, I agree. But so many people have worked so hard to bring about the fragile peace that is there, so many compromises have been made, yet they vote to chuck it all in the bin.
I really despair. I don't have the patience for them any more.
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Bernie66
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| Silas wrote: | Yes, I agree. But so many people have worked so hard to bring about the fragile peace that is there, so many compromises have been made, yet they vote to chuck it all in the bin.
I really despair. I don't have the patience for them any more. |
The political parties DUP etc-i have no patience for. I have alot of time for the actual people on the streets of NI, they were born into a situation which is not of their making or wanting. I would have liked to see the two main parties over there to have been a David Trimbles UUP, as i believe he (if only he and not the whole party) really did want a peace and the other one to be the SDLP. They appear to be more likely to have been able to take this proces forward. I must admit that i am not really qualified to discuss this issue in great depth but,having studied Irish history out of interst for a while over the years do have a strong sense that the British government has alot to answer for
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Lloyd
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If NI has just voted in the UUP, isn't that a reason for our continued involvement?...ie, they are chosing to remain British. It would be different if Sinn Fein was voted in...or am I missing something?
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jema
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| Madman wrote: | | If NI has just voted in the UUP, isn't that a reason for our continued involvement?...ie, they are chosing to remain British. It would be different if Sinn Fein was voted in...or am I missing something? |
I think the point being made is that a vote for the DUP, and Sinn Fein also I gather did well, is a vote to send the peace process up in flames. Hence the wash hands and run view.
Not a point of view I agree with BTW, but a reaction I can understand.
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Jonnyboy
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Re: N Ireland - bring home the troops. | Silas wrote: | | The people of NI have voted for the DuP. The peace process is now dead in the water. I think it time we washed our hands of them and brought the troops home and leave Paisley to sort the bloody mess out by himself. |
What an idiotic statement, try looking into the situation a bit more before making crass, uninformed posts. Do you think the people here want violence?
And they are our troops too, you going to pull the police out of bethnal green next?
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tahir
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Got to agree with you JB, I know lots of people that live in NI and they all want peace, from Magherafelt to Coleraine to Belfast.
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Jonnyboy
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It makes me want to bang my head against a wall Tahir, on one hand Paisley does hold some extreme views but to write off an entire country, it's just stupid and ill informed. This wsn't a presidential campaign, people voted for local candidates.
Sadly, the moderate (ish) voice on both sides of the equation has lost out (UUP and SDLP), Trimble took a gamble on the Good Friday agreement which was seen by many as appeasing terrorism. The failure of it to move on and the continuing use of paramilitary violence has sealed his fate.
It's a sad fact that the IRA won't go until Sinn Fein have a lot more power than they have now, this way they can punch above their political weight. The risk to them is that without the IRA in the background they might fade away.
For all his faults Paisley recognises this, he's a bit like Scargill in that despite his personality he has been vindicated in certain respects.
One other thing is that labour etc, don't campaign over here. You only have local parties.
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tahir
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In cases like this the moderates always lose out, the vocal committed minorities are the voices that are given the most credence, and to be honest it must be very difficult for any unionist to sit down and talk to Sinn Fein (until the IRA ever decommissions)
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tahir
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | One other thing is that labour etc, don't campaign over here. You only have local parties. |
Why is that? No LibDems or anything?
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Silas
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Re: N Ireland - bring home the troops. | Jonnyboy wrote: | | Silas wrote: | | The people of NI have voted for the DuP. The peace process is now dead in the water. I think it time we washed our hands of them and brought the troops home and leave Paisley to sort the bloody mess out by himself. |
What an idiotic statement, try looking into the situation a bit more before making crass, uninformed posts. Do you think the people here want violence?
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Well they are certainly voting for it. The people OVER HERE are sick to death of the stupidity of it all, particularly the childish and dangerous attitude of Paisley and Paisley. If they want peace, they have to talk to people - no matter how much it may go agaist the grain.
The fact that they want to remain british does not mean that briton wants them, this particular briton dosent, as a matter of fact, not until they come to their senses anyway. The attitude of the DUP will put the peace process back at least 10 years and is likeley to spark off more violence, particularly from the loyalists.
You can certainly argue that British Politics was responsible for all the troubles in the first place, but it is up to the politicians over there to find a peace - I can't see how that can ever happen now the DUP have the upper hand.
What a waste. I really thought that we were very close to a permanent and lasting peace, but the voters of NI have decided that it is not to be - what conclusions are we to draw from that?
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Bernie66
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Re: N Ireland - bring home the troops. | Silas wrote: | | Jonnyboy wrote: | | Silas wrote: | | The people of NI have voted for the DuP. The peace process is now dead in the water. I think it time we washed our hands of them and brought the troops home and leave Paisley to sort the bloody mess out by himself. |
What an idiotic statement, try looking into the situation a bit more before making crass, uninformed posts. Do you think the people here want violence?
|
Well they are certainly voting for it. The people OVER HERE are sick to death of the stupidity of it all, particularly the childish and dangerous attitude of Paisley and Paisley. If they want peace, they have to talk to people - no matter how much it may go agaist the grain.
The fact that they want to remain british does not mean that briton wants them, this particular briton dosent, as a matter of fact, not until they come to their senses anyway. The attitude of the DUP will put the peace process back at least 10 years and is likeley to spark off more violence, particularly from the loyalists.
You can certainly argue that British Politics was responsible for all the troubles in the first place, but it is up to the politicians over there to find a peace - I can't see how that can ever happen now the DUP have the upper hand.
What a waste. I really thought that we were very close to a permanent and lasting peace, but the voters of NI have decided that it is not to be - what conclusions are we to draw from that? |
I would imagine the People OVER THERE are more sick of it than we are, i don't actually know personally anyone who has had the misfortune to die in the troubles. I am sure that in NI its harder ti find someone who doesn't.
I am sure that the average Iraqi would not thank you for washing your hands of them as they did not do enough to overthrow Sadam.
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Silas
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Re: N Ireland - bring home the troops. | Bernie66 wrote: |
I would imagine the People OVER THERE are more sick of it than we are, i don't actually know personally anyone who has had the misfortune to die in the troubles. I am sure that in NI its harder ti find someone who doesn't.
I am sure that the average Iraqi would not thank you for washing your hands of them as they did not do enough to overthrow Sadam. |
Well if they are sick of the troubles, why vote in a man who has clearly stated that as far as he is concerned the peace process is at an end.
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Bernie66
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i am guessing that it was probably only around 25% that did actually vote for him, either way it still does not mean that we should abandon the general public of NI to whatever they would be left with without British involvement.
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Silas
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| Bernie66 wrote: | | i am guessing that it was probably only around 25% that did actually vote for him, either way it still does not mean that we should abandon the general public of NI to whatever they would be left with without British involvement. |
There are those that woulkd argue that it was 'British involement' that caused all the troubles in the first place.
I'm not saying things were perfect before this, far from it, but at least there was real hope - now there is nothing.
If John Reid said to Paisley that if he did not open dialogue with Sinn Fien then british troops would be withdrawn within one month then things just might move, but then again, I doubt it - Paisley thinks he has the moral high ground, and he has god on his side.
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Bernie66
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Ther are many who feel British involvement and the fact that the British are there at all is the cause of it-mainly Sinn Fein supporters i would imagine. Pulling the troops out would please them and not UDP and Ian Paisley. A threat like that would not actually make Sinn Fein work any harder to get the provo's to give up their arms and Paisley would be hard pushed to be able to make many concessions to Sinn Fein(not that he would want to). I feel that course of action would be catastrophic and the only way forward is another few years of negociations however trying and costly they will turn out to be.
I am happier with the way NI is now than the way it was 10 years ago and go along with John Majors theory of "I would negociate with the devil himself" to end the troubles and violence. Its got to be better than what it was like 10 years ago
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Silas
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Yes, I agree, however, Paisley will not even sit in the same room if a Sinn Fein member is in it, so what hope for negotiation?
The NI people know this so can you tell me why they voted for him?
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Bernie66
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The woman and children who you would leave to the mercy of the paramilitaries are the ones that have my concerns. What %age of the people in NI actually voted UDP~my guess is probably around 15% but this is a guess at present. If i am even close in my estimation(wild) then you are tarring a whole country/ province with the same brush.
Would you walk out of Iraq now and leave them to it because 15% want the coalition out?
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jema
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| Silas wrote: | Yes, I agree, however, Paisley will not even sit in the same room if a Sinn Fein member is in it, so what hope for negotiation?
The NI people know this so can you tell me why they voted for him? |
JB will be able to explain it far better, but 10 years of stalemate is probably enough of a reason for people living with a continued paramilitary/troop presence. Just because the bombs have gone, has not removed the problems.
A vote for the DUP ain't my idea of a good answer  but I am not surprised by it.
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Bernie66
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The DUP got in total 241000 votes out of a population of 1.7 million. (14%)Hardly the reason to pack your bags and disappear with a job half done after all that they have gone through over the past few hundred years
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Silas
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| Bernie66 wrote: | The woman and children who you would leave to the mercy of the paramilitaries are the ones that have my concerns. What %age of the people in NI actually voted UDP~my guess is probably around 15% but this is a guess at present. If i am even close in my estimation(wild) then you are tarring a whole country/ province with the same brush.
Would you walk out of Iraq now and leave them to it because 15% want the coalition out? |
If the people are concerned about the peace process, then they SHOULD be bothered to vote. If they don't then they share the responsobility for the mess that they are now in.
Stalemate it may be, but it is at least a peaceful stalemate that had the prospect of an eventual sucessful outcome, now there is nothing but a rabid bigot putting the brakes on everything.
Why do you keep comparing this with iraq - the two situations are not even remotly similar.
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Bernie66
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The other 85% did not "not bother to vote" they are too young, or voted for a different party. (my figures are not 100% accurate). My concerns re Iraq are that we will still be in there in 30 years as we are still in NI.I am aware they are different situations but am concerned that our troops will end up out there for too long
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leebu
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I would agree that Britain should pull troops out of Northern Ireland.. but not because we ought to give up on a situation that we had a very large part in causing and perpetuating. I simply believe that The British Army has not been seen as a neutral, peace keeping force by most people in Northen Ireland for all but the first three years of being there. Previous to that there was talk of the UN sending in the Blue Berets, refused by Britain only because of the embarrassment factor (I suppose). I think there is a strong case for a trully neutral peace keeping force if an armed presence is necessary.. but it aint us.
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Bernie66
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| leebu wrote: | | I would agree that Britain should pull troops out of Northern Ireland.. but not because we ought to give up on a situation that we had a very large part in causing and perpetuating. I simply believe that The British Army has not been seen as a neutral, peace keeping force by most people in Northen Ireland for all but the first three years of being there. Previous to that there was talk of the UN sending in the Blue Berets, refused by Britain only because of the embarrassment factor (I suppose). I think there is a strong case for a trully neutral peace keeping force if an armed presence is necessary.. but it aint us. |
Anything would be better than abandoning the NIrish people with a "sod them" attitude. I guess that a British soldier may be seen as not a great deal of help considering the history between the Irish people and the British army.And the fact that a British soldier is seen to be on the side of the Unionist is probably inflamatory at times.
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Jonnyboy
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The troop presence in N.I has largely gone, the RUC is now the PSNI, most day to day (rather than weekly) paramilitary violence revolves around the enclaves in east and west belfast. It's important to note that the recent case of the McCarthy murder involved IRA/Sinn Fein violence on the catholic community.
Trimbles problems come from many sources, he pushed through the peace process despite opposition within his own party and the process has utterly failed to show the dividends he promised. The paramilitaries (IRA/UDA/INLA/UFF etc) still deal in violence despite assurances to the contrary, although in many cases it's related to drug dealing, prostitution and extortion rather than political aims.
Trimbles fatal errors are that he failed to deal with the political infighting (Donaldson etc) and he lost touch with the grass roots opinion. The party has been in serious decline since 1991. In a way it's a parody of the tory woes.
Anyone who thinks that the people of Northern Ireland are anti peace utterly fails to grasp the concept here. The peace process is a farce compared to real life, newscasters trying to act as if Sinn Fein and the IRA are two different factions, the government avoiding using 'disbandment' as it amounts to 'surrender'.
The problem with the peace process as it stands is that it has failed to remove the gun from Northern Ireland politics. the mainland may be safe but people are still dying over here. It's just not newsworthy enough. Please note the word 'dying'; it's not an abstract.
The DUP has won power through the dissatisfaction of unionists at the way they have made repeated concessions without the removal of guns from politics. They are in no way anti peace but do not support further concessions without a real step forward in disarmament. As Bernie said, they do not speak for 100% of the population but they do attract sympathy with over 50% of voting unionists. Any argument towards letting the population 'sort itself out' is pushing racist boundaries IMHO.
I've been part of this scenario for over ten years ( that's only the first cease fire) and I don't fully understand it. It's impossible to judge the situation unless you've really lived here. This knee jerk judgement really pisses me off.
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Bernie66
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | This knee jerk judgement really pisses me off. |
Here Here
I have a great deal of time for the NIrish, noone who has not been part of the going's on over there can grasp the real issues as they only get what the papers want to give them. NI is still a major issue but is not reported as much over here. If you spend any time on the websites of any of the newspapers or political/semipolitical parties from NI it is obvious that there is a huge amount still to be sorted before peace of any kind is to be found.
Giving up is no answer to a problem which we created in the first place.
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tahir
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Well said JB and Bernie, if there was a simple solution it would have been found by now, it's going to take time and the disarming of the paramilitaries to get this resolved.
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Joey
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well said Jonnyboy!
Three points to make which may have already been said.
1.
NI is part of the UK so British troops are already at home. With a lot of the GB regiments moved on to other parts of the world or back to their home barracks, you will find a large proportion of troops there are now RIR, which since it's amalgamation with the UDR would make it far and away the biggest regiment in the British Army.
2.
I was shocked by the pathetic turnout at the poles in NI of only 62%
Not too long ago it would have been 90%. That is why the more middle ground parties have lost out. their traditional support does not give a damn when paramilitary activity is now largely in the
deprived city and town estates and not upsetting their selfish exsistance.
3.
Please don't knock the DUP in tarring them with the same brush as
Sinn Fein/IRA. Over the years you will find them invovled in activities
and protests no more sinister than has been seen in GB during Miners strikes, fuel protests and pro hunt demos.
Look behind Sinn Fein/IRA and you will find Armalites, bombs, extortion, drugs, murder.
Paisley with his "not and inch " stance neutralises the loyalist paramilitaries of having any support outside of their ghettos.
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cab
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| Jonnyboy wrote: |
The problem with the peace process as it stands is that it has failed to remove the gun from Northern Ireland politics. the mainland may be safe but people are still dying over here. It's just not newsworthy enough. Please note the word 'dying'; it's not an abstract.
|
JB, I agree with pretty much everything you've said; the only thing I'd add is that since the 'troubles' at least slowed down a bit (since, say, around 1995 when things started to get better) Northern Ireland has become a far better place. It's not over, there are still violent, evil factions killing people, but we've at least seen some progress.
Trimble pushed too hard in the wrong direction; the other choice Unionist voters have in Northern Ireland is Paisley. I don't for one minute believe that the Unionists in Northern Ireland support the more radical views that Paisley has put forward any more than I believe that the Nationalists support the IRA because they vote for Sinn Feinn.
The alternative Nationalist groups, such as the SDLP, the 'quiet nationalists', have really made the same errors as Trimble. They got too wedded to an ideal of a peace process, even when that process wasn't delivering for everyone in Northern Ireland.
It's a mess, but it's a hell of a lot less messy than it was when I first visited Belfast!
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cab
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Re: N Ireland - bring home the troops. | Silas wrote: | | The people of NI have voted for the DuP. The peace process is now dead in the water. I think it time we washed our hands of them and brought the troops home and leave Paisley to sort the bloody mess out by himself. |
A wonderful plan. While we're at it, why don't we pull the Police out of rough housing estates and let the people there sort out their own troubles? I know, lets also pull the Prison Officer service out of jails and let them rule themselves. Or for that matter, lets get the immigration service all pensioned off and let people sort their own passport checks out...
We have had an army presence in Northern Ireland because there wasn't another obvious alternative; but go there now and compare the streets with how they were and you'll see that the presence is now tiny in comparison. Was a time you'd see armed soldiers in the middle of Belfast; there was also a time when to go for a night out from one part of Donegal to another you'd take wellies, so you could trudge across a field rather than along the road which went through two army checkpoints (going over and back across the border).
We have a duty to our fellow citizens; whether we see them as Brits, Irish or Europeans, we still have that duty.
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Silas
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| Jonnyboy wrote: |
The problem with the peace process as it stands is that it has failed to remove the gun from Northern Ireland politics. the mainland may be safe but people are still dying over here. It's just not newsworthy enough. Please note the word 'dying'; it's not an abstract.
The DUP has won power through the dissatisfaction of unionists at the way they have made repeated concessions without the removal of guns from politics. They are in no way anti peace but do not support further concessions without a real step forward in disarmament. As Bernie said, they do not speak for 100% of the population but they do attract sympathy with over 50% of voting unionists. Any argument towards letting the population 'sort itself out' is pushing racist boundaries IMHO.
I've been part of this scenario for over ten years ( that's only the first cease fire) and I don't fully understand it. It's impossible to judge the situation unless you've really lived here. This knee jerk judgement really pisses me off. |
Well its news to me that the peace process is complete. I thought that it still had a long way to go and removing the gun from politics was still and objective, after all, they removed the bomb.
Shame really, I love ireland and the irish people, I just would have thought that if the north was really interested in a lasting peace, they would have done something about it at the ballot box.
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cab
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| Silas wrote: |
Well its news to me that the peace process is complete. I thought that it still had a long way to go and removing the gun from politics was still and objective, after all, they removed the bomb.
Shame really, I love ireland and the irish people, I just would have thought that if the north was really interested in a lasting peace, they would have done something about it at the ballot box. |
You'll find that they HAVE done something at the ballot box. They've found that the peace process isn't bringing them peace, so they've chosen to vote for those who would handle the peace process very differently.
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Jonnyboy
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| Silas wrote: |
Well its news to me that the peace process is complete. I thought that it still had a long way to go and removing the gun from politics was still and objective, after all, they removed the bomb. |
Where did I mention that it was complete?, it's far from complete. The peace process would be right on track if the various groups who signed up to it had honoured their commitments. And therein lies a lot of Trimbles problems, he's viewed as an appeaser when the violence and guns haven't gone away. To be honest I think Paisley hates Trimble more than he does Adams.
| Quote: | | Shame really, I love ireland and the irish people, I just would have thought that if the north was really interested in a lasting peace, they would have done something about it at the ballot box. |
They are interested in a lasting peace, why can't you see that? A lot of unionists just don't see the current process as it stands delivering that, a vote for the DUP isn't a vote for violence, does the DUP advocated armed struggle? No. What you are trying to do is blame unionism for a theoretical resumption of republican paramilitary violence.
Most republicans don't want violence either, 99% of the population never wanted any of this and get along fine. What the people here don't want is a faux peace with active paramilitary groups treated as participants in the peace process becasue it's politically expedient, the falsness of it all is hard to stomach.
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Silas
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| cab wrote: | | Silas wrote: |
Well its news to me that the peace process is complete. I thought that it still had a long way to go and removing the gun from politics was still and objective, after all, they removed the bomb.
Shame really, I love ireland and the irish people, I just would have thought that if the north was really interested in a lasting peace, they would have done something about it at the ballot box. |
You'll find that they HAVE done something at the ballot box. They've found that the peace process isn't bringing them peace, so they've chosen to vote for those who would handle the peace process very differently. |
From what I have read, they have chosen to vote for those who would pull the plug on the peace process completely.
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Silas
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Silas wrote: |
Well its news to me that the peace process is complete. I thought that it still had a long way to go and removing the gun from politics was still and objective, after all, they removed the bomb. |
Where did I mention that it was complete?, it's far from complete. The peace process would be right on track if the various groups who signed up to it had honoured their commitments. And therein lies a lot of Trimbles problems, he's viewed as an appeaser when the violence and guns haven't gone away. To be honest I think Paisley hates Trimble more than he does Adams.
| Quote: | | Shame really, I love ireland and the irish people, I just would have thought that if the north was really interested in a lasting peace, they would have done something about it at the ballot box. |
They are interested in a lasting peace, why can't you see that? A lot of unionists just don't see the current process as it stands delivering that, a vote for the DUP isn't a vote for violence, does the DUP advocated armed struggle? No. What you are trying to do is blame unionism for a theoretical resumption of republican paramilitary violence.
Most republicans don't want violence either, 99% of the population never wanted any of this and get along fine. What the people here don't want is a faux peace with active paramilitary groups treated as participants in the peace process becasue it's politically expedient, the falsness of it all is hard to stomach. |
I do have a lot of respect for your views Jonnyboy, yuo live there and live with it day to day, but I find Paisley and his mob quite terrifying. I just cannot understand why anyone who has read what he says and has watched him for the past 30 years or so can support him. I am not trying to blame unionism per se, but paisley is someone who is very likeley to provoke tension and conflict. I really think that moderation on all sides is needed. I know that the unionists feel that they have moved a lot, and indeed they have, early release must have been a very painful pill to swallow, but look at the then and now and tell me that things are not better and were not likeley to get better still.
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cab
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| Silas wrote: |
From what I have read, they have chosen to vote for those who would pull the plug on the peace process completely. |
Then your take on Northern Ireland politics is a little incomplete.
I first started following NI politics back in, what, 1995 or so. I used to know an SDLP councillor on Belfast City Council, a good bloke who we worled with on my project at the time.
I also got to meet the Lort High Mayor at a conference (on 'Environmental Biotechnology', which I still can't define) and various others, and it struck me straight away that the politics of the province are FAR more complex than you might imagine.
It isn't Unionist versus Republican. It's not even, strictly speaking, Unionist versus Unionist and Republican versus Republican, it's a highly complex voting system where you have to pick who to vote based on who you want, who you don't want, and how much you're prepared to risk someone who you're completely bored with/disagree with/hate getting in to get your first choice voer your second.
And that's not even going into Rule Number 1 of Northern Ireland Politics: The rhetoric only has passing resemblance to the policies. That means that the emotive speeches tell you only part of what a party really stands for; that's especially true when you have an orator like Paisley at your head.
It's been suggested that one problem in Northern Ireland is that the politics is all too testosterone fuelled; there's a lot of sense in that, and one party called the Northern Ireland Womans coalition has more or less completely failed to make an impact on this issue. Oh, well.
Voting for Paisley doesn't mean you believe, like him, that the Protestant women of Northern Ireland have a duty to outbreed the Catholics. It doesn't mean that you believe all power sharing on the assembly should cease. But it might mean that you're skeptical about Sinn Feins real power to make the IRA disarm, or even their interest in doing so, and that you would rather wait it out to see whether such a concession might be forthcoming.
Silas, if you haven't been to Northern Ireland, I urge you to go there. Other than in one place (oddly enough, the Student Union bar of Queens University; wierd experience I'll tell you about another time) I've found the whole place to be warm and friendly in a way that nowhere else I've been (other than maybe the dodgier parts of Glasgow) have been. Wonderful place, great people, and better Guiness than in Dublin.
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Silas
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I go there about three times a year.
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cab
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| Silas wrote: |
I do have a lot of respect for your views Jonnyboy, yuo live there and live with it day to day, but I find Paisley and his mob quite terrifying. I just cannot understand why anyone who has read what he says and has watched him for the past 30 years or so can support him. |
Remember one thing about Paisley; he's a great political survivor and strategist.
He sees which way the wind is blowing and, eventually, bends with it while maintaining his hard-line rhetoric. Look back at the civil rights movement of the '60's. He had a good working relationship with Devlin, who you might imagine he'd be massively opposed to, the two being as different as chalk and cheese, but the two worked together, got on, and where they differed they merely agreed to differ.
I've got very little timefor Paisley, but I do try to keep his rantings in context.
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cab
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| Silas wrote: | | I go there about three times a year. |
Cool. What for?
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Jonnyboy
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| Silas wrote: | | I go there about three times a year. |
My office overlooks the falls road, and I don't fully understand the political nuances, and in a way that's a big point to the discussion here. It's never as black and white as you make out.
I can understand how it could be viewed as such, but a limited media exposure makes it almost impossible to grasp all the variables.
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Silas
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| cab wrote: | | Silas wrote: | | I go there about three times a year. |
Cool. What for? |
I have a lot of friends in Belfast, mostly mainland ex-pats though.
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jema
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Silas wrote: | | I go there about three times a year. |
My office overlooks the falls road, and I don't fully understand the political nuances, and in a way that's a big point to the discussion here. It's never as black and white as you make out.
I can understand how it could be viewed as such, but a limited media exposure makes it almost impossible to grasp all the variables. |
Seems to me, when you are talking about illegal paramilitary groups, then no one can understand all the nuances. Does anyone claim to understand totally the role Adams, and McGuiness play or don't play in the IRA army council?
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cab
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I've sometimes wondered whether we should award every voter in NI an honourary doctorate in politics; the complexity of issues over there (and the knowledge the electorate seems to have) far surpasses anything else, anywhere else in Europe, as far as I can tell.
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Jonnyboy
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| jema wrote: |
Seems to me, when you are talking about illegal paramilitary groups, then no one can understand all the nuances. Does anyone claim to understand totally the role Adams, and McGuiness play or don't play in the IRA army council? |
Nope, but I'm sure those negotiating have a much better idea. It's only over the last few months that the respective governments have come out and stated that Adams and McGuinness sit on the IRA councils, To be honest I'm ambivilant about that as at least it means they can influence the direction from there. It does make a mockery of their public statements to the IRA though.
On the subject of unionist paramilitaries, well on the whole they are just low life thugs and drug dealers who don't care who they prey on.
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Silas
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Can anyone tell me just how the IRA can be accused of a crime, sentanced and punished for it, without it ever going to any court?
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Jonnyboy
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| Silas wrote: | | Can anyone tell me just how the IRA can be accused of a crime, sentanced and punished for it, without it ever going to any court? |
Sorry Silas, I don't understand your question, in what context are you talking?
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Silas
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I was thinking of the multi-million pound robbery. I know that the evidence, such as it is and the chief constable is convinced it was the work of the IRA, but it has not been tried.
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Jonnyboy
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| Silas wrote: | | I was thinking of the multi-million pound robbery. I know that the evidence, such as it is and the chief constable is convinced it was the work of the IRA, but it has not been tried. |
I don't know. I'm not privy to the information they have but I assume it's through intercept methods which are inadmissable. The Irish government is convinced they are involved as well.
I don't think they can prosecute an illegal organisation anyway, they need to obtain sufficient admissable evidence to try individuals.
IMHO the statements made are largely political, they are showing that the IRA is engaged in criminal activity despite it's supposed ceasefire.
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jema
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| Silas wrote: | | I was thinking of the multi-million pound robbery. I know that the evidence, such as it is and the chief constable is convinced it was the work of the IRA, but it has not been tried. |
The IRA is an illegal terrorist organisation, simply by dealing with it, ordinary standards do not apply. You cannot really have a peace process that that accepts where the IRA is blatantly illegal, e.g. its arms caches etc, and also insists on giving it the total benefit of the doubt on all its other illegal activities.
Unionists are going to have to swallow a lot in the peace process, but you cannot have the IRA totally taking the piss.
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