ksia
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No fridgeWe've read with interest past posts re people not having (or not using) fridges.
So, to those who don't have one can you give us an update?
What are the problems? What to we avoid etc.
Still thinking about it...
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ksia
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(just reactivating question to try to catch someone who might've missed it first time)
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otatop
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Way back in the 1950's my father "built" a fridge for my mother - a pit in the garden, 3 or 4 feet deep, beautifully lined with concrete and with a close-fitting wooden lid. My father always said that it worked very well once he'd designed a device for raising and lowering the contents. However my mother never used it - she was extremely miffed because she wanted an electric one the same as her friends.
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Penny
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We always had a little cupboard with a wire mesh front on it at the top of the cellar stairs, where we kept butter and milk and stuff.
Seemed to work really well, as far as I can remember, although I'm sure my Mother was delighted when we finally got a fridge 
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Mr BlueSky
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Hard Working Hippy has an ace leccy-less fridge in her kitchen.
As far as I can remember it is on the north facing wall with no insulation on the wall side but insulated on the other sides. It's made of wood and part of the kitchen cupboard range. You wouldn't know it was anything other than a cupboard to look at it.
Where is she these days? 
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dpack
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a damp stone slab in a drafty cellar is good
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woodsprite
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HWH has been without internet access for ages but she's back online now, she'll be by sometime soon I'm sure.
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Slim
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stream house if your property allows it?
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welsh lamb
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Our Kitchen is currently a fridge - was built in c1760 - this is the first year it has felt so cold - I blame the east wind 
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ksia
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Ta for the replies. The north-wall-fridge sounds good. We'll let you know what we do .....
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gil
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I went back to using a fridge for the summer and autumn because of needing the extra freezer space it had, as well as the chest freezers.
Ain't it a habit ? it's minus whatever here now, and I've still got the fridge going (freezer space issues persist).
Thanks for the reminder, ksia - must rationalise the freezers and switch the fridge off for the rest of winter.
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Helen_A
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Hmmm - atm the fridge is frequently warmer inside than the kitchen is out... Does anyone have any links to info on 'north wall' fridges or 'real' larders? I need something to wave past DP so that we could possibly plan something in as with tear out the existing kitchen later this year 
(DP already thinks I'm slightly nuts, because I want to 'de-fit' generally..... but he is coming around to the idea that the expensive bits of kitchen kit can therefore come with us when we next move...)
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ksia
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We've finally got round to experimenting with this. Yes, in summer I know!
Over a month ago we moved the fridge with small freezer compartment moved into the coldest room in house.
Ex-fridge part used as shelving storage. (Things in jars Olives, tahini paste etc)
Ex-freezer part for things which need to be chilled a little (butter, cheese etc) - frozen bottle of water put in from time to time to keep it cooler and give us a chilled drink.
Problem is even though we go in the ex-fridge part every day it's getting mouldy. So we're thinking of either taking the door off or compromising and putting the fridge on during summer...though after having house guests I'm too tired to make a decision today.
Anyway, anyone else further 'no-fridge' experiences to share?
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gil
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If you shut the doors to a fridge or freezer which is not switched on, it will always go mouldy inside.
I've got the fridge on for summer.
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Belinda
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One approach is to look at what people used before most people had fridges. A lot of 1930s houses for instance were built with small kitchens but big understairs shelved larders on the assumption that people wouldn't have a fridge. We are fortunate in that our understairs area is still a shelved, properly ventilated (airbrick type thing with wire mesh) larder which hasn't been 'updated' into a coat storgae area or whatever. It does stay quite cool. People would have then kept a marble slab on the larder shelf (to provide a cool base even in hot weather) and would have kept milk in a covered jug in a bowl of water. You can make a minifridge for cheese or butter with a flowerpot-and-wet-teatowel arrangement.
We would manage perfectly without a fridge and I'd barely miss it at all. The real hardship would be managing without a freezer, as it holds our stocks of homegrown fruit/veg for winter use. But I suppose if freezers suddenly weren't available, I'd just go back to bottling, drying, and salting things down in jars.
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Nat S
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I'm wanting to build a larder type thing here like I saw years ago at the CAT centre - it had really thick walls and was partially dug intot he ground, with a thick turf roof to keep the temp. constant.
in my tent I used a big bucket of water, as long as I didn't buy too much of any perishables at a time it worked beautifully. before people had fridges I guess they had daily milk deliveries and went shopping for butter cheese etc more often?
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ksia
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We've decided to relent and (like you gil) go for a summer fridge. As you say Ixy, milk is a problem - but mostly we found "left-overs" tipped the balance for us. Unfinished quiche makes a nice following lunch - but not when it's furry. And a crumble will often last us 3 or 4 days - in the fridge.
You're right Belinda, if we had to we'd find other methods .... but for now ....!
We've now at least got the fridge in a better position. And it's clean! "Aim for the stars, end up in the tree-tops."
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Mutton
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We used to use the bowl of water with draped cloth to keep milk good in summer while camping. Stand it on the north side of the tent. The milk certainly kept overnight in hot weather. Can't remember now whether it kept longer than that - been some years since we went camping.
Friends flat has a corner cupboard in the kitchen, north side of building, air vent bricks top and bottom and that stays cold. Just uses as a larder not a fridge.
Saw an article can't immediately find on new build eco homes for housing association with old fashioned larders built on them.
Freezers - interesting balance. Wonder what the energy cost is of bottling with all the heat compared to storing in freezer. (Assuming for purposes of calculation that you empty the freezer by the following summer.) Also, in terms of shopping - if you have to drive say 10 miles to shops - what is balance of bulk buy and freeze so low mileage, against frequent shopping trips and no freezer.
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Belinda
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Yes, quite. I wonder about the electricity costs of running two freezers, but then we keep them full (which reduces running costs) and at some points in the year I just run one when stocks are low, rather than running two on half-empty. I balance that against the savings we make by freezing a lot of home-grown fruit and veg, being able to cook and freeze extra meals, etc.
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resistance is fertile
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If you build a ccolbox/fridge in a warm area it can work well too.
If you make a box of, say, thin stainless or tin sheet, inside a larger box and fill the cavity with an insulate that is then saturated with water (sand, wool) and then vent this cavity the moisture evaporating in the warm atmosphere will draw heat from the inner box and keep it cool.
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RichardW
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A good freezer will use about 1kwh per day (365kwh per year).
A 47kg bottle of propane contains about 650kwh of energy (13.9kwh per kg).
A quick google gives me a gas consumption per gas stove ring of 1.5 to 3.5 (wok) kwh so 2kwh seems a good number to use.
So if you are using more than 182 hours (or a 1/3 of a 47kg bottle) of single gas ring time to can / bottle it might be better to freeze for the same volume. If the produce last one full year before using (which is not real world use). Canning & bottling will pull back if stored for longer.
Richard
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boisdevie1
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We have a fridge but we changed over to a smaller more energy efficient one. At first it seemed ridiculously small. Now it seems absolutely fine. I think it takes a bit of discipline. I have some friends, a retired couple, who have one of those massive American style fridges - do they really need a 300 litre fridge? No, of course not.
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cassy
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| Slim wrote: | | stream house if your property allows it? |
Has anybody got any experience of using a stream or spring to cool a cellar or house built on top of it?
It sounds like a really interesting idea (if you've got a suitable stream or spring). We are going to experiment with a sunken insulated box, cooled with plastic bottles of frozen water and terracotta pots sandwiched with damp sand, but a spring house would be a much better, long term alternative.
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Bulgarianlily
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We are in a hot climate here in the Summer but are managing with a very small hotel bedroom sized fridge, as you say it takes some discipline to not buy anything that needs too much space in it. It is 47 liters and says it uses 160 kw a year, we could have got a slightly more economic one, but it only puts out 36 decibels and as we sleep and live in the one room noise is an issue! I think we will turn it off in the winter, and use a meat safe outside. We are currently feeding four people every day here.
What temperature would you say you need to keep milk safe and water nice and cold?
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RichardW
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For 160kwh per year you could have a normal full sized fridge. Our large larger fridge uses less than that. If noise is a big issue you can turn them off overnight on all but the hottest nights (UK temps).
It sounds like you have a non compressor type fridge (like most 12v / lpg gas ones). They are the least efficient type but they are silent.
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hardworkinghippy
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Lily,
When I was researching how I could do without a 'fridge most of the sites I visited said that milk and food had to be stored under 45° (about 6°C).
Over the past eight years I've not been able to manage as low as that in our "cupboard" fridge.  At the moment it's been over 100° outside (35°Cish) for about a week here and a bottle of milk keeps OK at 14° for 4 days. I never keep any other potentially hazardous food longer than a few hours.
Wine taken from the cellar built into the bank in the back garden (Where the gloriette is.) is much cooler than in the "fridge" so it might be worth your while building as big a cellar as you can manage outside if you've a suitable place for it.
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RichardW
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Is that for shop bought pasturised or sterilised or home produced milk?
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Bulgarianlily
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Hmm time for a rethink, thanks for infomation.
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hardworkinghippy
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| Quote: | | Is that for shop bought pasturised or sterilised or home produced milk? |
Sorry Richard I should have said.
Sterilised bought milk lasts longest and is OK in the wall 'fridge. If we've fresh goat or cow's milk I keep it in the cellar but I've never saved more than two day's worth for cheese in the summer.
We also have one of those small 12v peltier coolbox/fridges which soaks up the excess energy produced by the solar panels in the summer but it's been 39° here today and the cheese is starting to poo in the coolbox - it's cooler in the cellar !
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