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cab

No pay-per-throw...

...apparently:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10251696.stm

But more incentives to recycle more.

So, to get those incentives, I've got to buy more crap, use less things over and over, and throw more of it into the recycling bin? 'Reduce' and 'Re-use' are so yesterday, now its all going to be about Recycling Confused

What a load of ****. Give people an incentive to STILL miss the point. An improvement on how things are now? Maybe, marginally. But woefully lacking in imagination.
JB

I have a vague suspicion that cab is not representative of the majority of people who these measures are aimed at Very Happy
cab

JB wrote:
I have a vague suspicion that cab is not representative of the majority of people who these measures are aimed at Very Happy


Probably not Laughing

However, the majority need to act more like we do in our house, at least in terms of waste management. And this ain't going to push them in that direction.
tahir

Agree 100% with Cab, the amount of waste people put out every week amazes us.
Treacodactyl

What's the solution thought? I thought most people, including DS users, were against pay per throw?
tahir

I can't think of a better way of dealing with the issue than pay per throw
JB

Treacodactyl wrote:
What's the solution thought? I thought most people, including DS users, were against pay per throw?


Tax waste production would be a start, that might remove a lot of the excess packaging which probably accounts for a lot of the waste being thrown away.
Treacodactyl

JB wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
What's the solution thought? I thought most people, including DS users, were against pay per throw?


Tax waste production would be a start, that might remove a lot of the excess packaging which probably accounts for a lot of the waste being thrown away.


I don't think packaging is the biggest problem, it seems that after garden waste kitchen waste is the next highest percentage of stuff thrown out. Perhaps some method of collecting that would be the best first step? I think our council collects garden waste, although it IS a pay per throw scheme, but I don't think there are any plans to collect kitchen waste or encourage people to reduce it.
tahir

Even collection of garden waste should be charged. We've started using green waste instead of mushroom compost for mulching, the amount of non degradable waste (plastic & metal) included in it is unbelievable.
JB

Treacodactyl wrote:
I don't think packaging is the biggest problem, it seems that after garden waste kitchen waste is the next highest percentage of stuff thrown out.


So I suppose one side effect might be that it draws people's attention to how much they waste. If it's an amorphous mess in a single bin it's a lot harder for someone to see how much food they discard than if they have a separate bin for kitchen waste (of course that might not happen, I'm just trying to be optimistic for a change)
chicken feed

Confused i am not sure on the best way around the waste problems whilst we have a 3 bin system here if it was to ever go to pay per throw i could imagine the fly tippers it got bad around here when skip prices went up so lord knows what the rural area would look like if it ever came to pay to throw.

as it is bin lids have to be closed else they are not emptied a while ago my daughter caught one of her neighbours filling her bin becasue theirs was already full nedless to say a few words were said and the rubish handed back to the rightful owner.
Bebo

My two point plan for immediate reductions in land-fill:
1) Penalise supermarkets and producers for excess packaging and not using biodegradeable or recycleable materials. WTF is the point of shrink wrapping a swede?
2) Re-introduce the feeding of swill to pigs, but make sure its treatment prior to feeding is properly regulated.
cab

It isn't 'pay per throw' or 'incentives for recycling' or nothing at all. I wouldn't say that either is the right answer.

If you want, say, less glass, plastic or metal going to landfill then put a tariff on those items, a deposit that you get back when you take them back. If you want to encourage more containers to be re-useable rather than recyclable then develop a simple range of containers that CAN be re-used by numerous manufacturers and impose a tax on products that aren't in those (who the hell needs a gazillion styles of wine bottle anyway?). If you want less food waste to go to landfill then collect it and compost it; you don't reduce that (or garden waste) in any way by incentivising 'recycling'.

As ever, what we're seeing from Government here is a completely lilly-livered bottling on the issue. No heart, no stomach, no imagination!
tahir

Bebo wrote:
WTF is the point of shrink wrapping a swede?


Sven Goran Eriksson?
cab

Bebo wrote:

1) Penalise supermarkets and producers for excess packaging and not using biodegradeable or recycleable materials. WTF is the point of shrink wrapping a swede?


Makes 'em sweat more, increasing rate of spoilage, so you throw it out and buy another one Laughing

For me the lesson there is to shop somewhere else.
mark

Well pay per though has the advantage that it makes consumers want less packaging - and demand supermarkets etc don't dump loads of plastic and paper on them.

It has the disadvantage that it encourages flytipping.

But maybe we would be best to tax at source and put a recycling tax on packaging materials or a higher rate of VAT on packaged goods.

That would stop so much getting into circulation in the first place.

Compulsary recycling deposits on bottles, cans, jars, cartons would all do the same.

Does anyone remember the old days when bottles had a deposit and you would either take them back or cubs and scouts and other charity groups would collect them to claim the deposit for their funds?

Mark
Treacodactyl

Bebo wrote:
1) Penalise supermarkets and producers for excess packaging and not using biodegradeable or recycleable materials. WTF is the point of shrink wrapping a swede?


But that could lead to more landfill. It seems more food waste than packaging is produced so if you cut down on packaging there's a chance even more food waste is produced.

As for biodegradable packaging that just ends up in landfill for most people doesn't it? It can't be recycled along with other plastics, many places don't collect compostable waste and even if they did they may well exclude biodegradable plastics.

If councils don't currently collect and compost kitchen waste I can't see pig swill being collected either.
cab

mark wrote:

Does anyone remember the old days when bottles had a deposit and you would either take them back or cubs and scouts and other charity groups would collect them to claim the deposit for their funds?


Heck, we used to nick the empty bottles of brown from behind pubs and take them back for the deposit Laughing
marigold

tahir wrote:
Even collection of garden waste should be charged.


It is here - 50p per paper sack or 52 a year for a green waste wheelie bin.

Ed to say: And you have to pay for the compost if you buy it back - in Cambridgeshire it's free if you go and collect it, I believe.
Rob R

Pay-per-throw being scrapped is brilliant. It means we won't get a load of rubbish dumped in our ditch and then have to pay to dispose of it. It was an ill-thought out idea by an urban government determined to destroy our countryside and although the principle of the alternative may be exactly in line with what we, as Downsizers, would like to see, it does mean that the problem won't just be shifted out of sight and mind. As we already get dumpers with a free rubbish collection service there was sure to be more of it should they have started charging for it.
ksia

mark wrote:

Compulsary recycling deposits on bottles, cans, jars, cartons would all do the same.

Does anyone remember the old days when bottles had a deposit and you would either take them back or cubs and scouts and other charity groups would collect them to claim the deposit for their funds?

Mark


For the life of me I can't see why deposits on stuff wouldn't work well. Why isn't it happening?
Rob R

ksia wrote:
For the life of me I can't see why deposits on stuff wouldn't work well. Why isn't it happening?


Aluminium and steel cans are worth good money, if you can be bothered cleaning them, crushing them and taking them to a scrap yard but most people either can't be bothered, have such high incomes that it doesn't seem worth the bother or simply don't know about it. I suspect most fall into the latter category but even if they did know I also suspect they'd fall into one of the other two categories rather than collect them. Some charities used to recycle them, but I haven't seen a charity can box for ages, so maybe they've found they get more money by ringing people up and hassling them than actually collecting and processing the tins. Rolling Eyes
mark

The idea of the deposit is that it is usually higher than the recycling value - so creating incentive to return and not dump the item.

Say you put 5p or 10p on a bottle or can - people start to want to return them - or their kids badger adults to allow them to go and get the cash on them !

It works for supermarket trolleys that don't get thrown into canals as much when it costs 1 and peole now take thm back if they remove them !
cab

Rob R wrote:

Aluminium and steel cans are worth good money...


...in sufficient bulk. We'd take goodness knows how long to have enough to be worthwhile, and then I've no idea how the heck I'd get 'em to a scrap yard (or whether I'd find one within cycle trailer distance!).

I've also got reservations about pay-per-throw and the impact it would have on fly tipping (not just a rural issue - try getting fly tipped waste removed from your property in a city, its also a pain). But dropping it in favour of other measures that also don't address the big picture seems utterly naff to me.
ksia

Rob R wrote:
ksia wrote:
For the life of me I can't see why deposits on stuff wouldn't work well. Why isn't it happening?


Aluminium and steel cans are worth good money, if you can be bothered cleaning them, crushing them and taking them to a scrap yard but most people either can't be bothered, have such high incomes that it doesn't seem worth the bother or simply don't know about it. I suspect most fall into the latter category but even if they did know I also suspect they'd fall into one of the other two categories rather than collect them. Some charities used to recycle them, but I haven't seen a charity can box for ages, so maybe they've found they get more money by ringing people up and hassling them than actually collecting and processing the tins. Rolling Eyes


P'raps things will start to change with Mr Cameron promising hard times ahead.

I agree about the high income thing - so, high deposits?
Rob R

Packaging does seem ridiculously cheap, I'd go for higher deposits.
Hairyloon

Treacodactyl wrote:
I don't think packaging is the biggest problem, it seems that after garden waste kitchen waste is the next highest percentage of stuff thrown out.

As I keep saying, rat farming is the way to deal with that, after all, a landfill site is in effect a very inefficient rat farm, but one that doesn't have an end product.

So find a use for the rats: fish food, fertiliser, or put them in wheels and make electricity, and run the garbage down a big conveyor so they can eat off what's edible (and what's not edible to a rat?).

And now the clever bit.
The obvious sites for the rat farms are in the places where folk are most wasteful... and what do you think the typical reaction to the proposal of a rat farm at the end of the road is?

NIMBYs out in force.
But you have logic, common sense, and the council on your side unless they significantly reduce their waste output...
Rob R

cab wrote:
Rob R wrote:

Aluminium and steel cans are worth good money...


...in sufficient bulk. We'd take goodness knows how long to have enough to be worthwhile, and then I've no idea how the heck I'd get 'em to a scrap yard (or whether I'd find one within cycle trailer distance!).


It's the sort of thing you have to club together and do between a few families I think- an extra bin soon fills up and is quite weighty when they're all crushed.

cab wrote:
I've also got reservations about pay-per-throw and the impact it would have on fly tipping (not just a rural issue - try getting fly tipped waste removed from your property in a city, its also a pain). But dropping it in favour of other measures that also don't address the big picture seems utterly naff to me.


Err no, these measures get people to recycle more of what they do produce, which is far better as far as the big picture goes than dumping it on someone elses doorstep for them to pay to dispose of. This system might not be perfect, granted, but it is an improvement. It's not just a rural issue, but it is predominately one, because tippers are less likely to be caught out here and there are far more 'sites' available for them.

The ones that bother me most are not the rubbish tippers though (at least there is a chance they'll leave their address in said rubbish), they are the idiots who block drains with leaves they have collected from their own street/garden . We had one who was quite easy to trace- he used to tip his lawn clippings and leaves over the fence into our field. As the pile got bigger and bigger it started to encroach into the field itself. So Paul got the loader and scooped them all up, and tipped the whole lot back over his fence! He hasn't done it again. Laughing
Treacodactyl

Hairyloon wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
I don't think packaging is the biggest problem, it seems that after garden waste kitchen waste is the next highest percentage of stuff thrown out.

As I keep saying, rat farming is the way to deal with that, after all, a landfill site is in effect a very inefficient rat farm, but one that doesn't have an end product.

So find a use for the rats: fish food, fertiliser, or put them in wheels and make electricity, and run the garbage down a big conveyor so they can eat off what's edible (and what's not edible to a rat?).

And now the clever bit.
The obvious sites for the rat farms are in the places where folk are most wasteful... and what do you think the typical reaction to the proposal of a rat farm at the end of the road is?

NIMBYs out in force.
But you have logic, common sense, and the council on your side unless they significantly reduce their waste output...


I think power generating rats fed on refuse is a little too far fetched to me, but I've thought for a long time the solution is to sort the waste out where it's produced so those who produce it a affected by it rather than making it someone else's problem.
Rob R

What we really need are a few more rag and bone men...
Hairyloon

Treacodactyl wrote:
I think power generating rats fed on refuse is a little too far fetched to me...

Well yes, that bit was tending towards silliness (OTOH, why wouldn't it work), but they would be a very efficient way of converting refuse into protein... and leave the remaining refuse cleaner ready for sorting.
cab

Rob R wrote:

Err no, these measures get people to recycle more of what they do produce, which is far better as far as the big picture goes than dumping it on someone elses doorstep for them to pay to dispose of.


Although as much of said waste is food waste or difficult to recycle laminated plastic and foil, its only a small improvement. If the big picture is 'reduce, reuse and recycle' then this only targets a little bit of it. Far better? Not at all. A little better, maybe. But the opportunity is there to do something really very positive; this isn't it.

Quote:
This system might not be perfect, granted, but it is an improvement. It's not just a rural issue, but it is predominately one, because tippers are less likely to be caught out here and there are far more 'sites' available for them.


I don't believe that its predominantly a rural problem. Its different (people travelling further to dump larger volumes as opposed to smaller, more frequent dumping), but wandering around a lot of urban areas I've seen a heck of a lot of waste dumped in a heck of a lot of places. There is never a shortage of places to tip waste in a town.

Quote:
The ones that bother me most are not the rubbish tippers though (at least there is a chance they'll leave their address in said rubbish), they are the idiots who block drains with leaves they have collected from their own street/garden . We had one who was quite easy to trace- he used to tip his lawn clippings and leaves over the fence into our field. As the pile got bigger and bigger it started to encroach into the field itself. So Paul got the loader and scooped them all up, and tipped the whole lot back over his fence! He hasn't done it again. Laughing


Yeah, sadly common. There must be a dozen gardens on my regular foraging routes where footpaths are marred by waste just hurled over the fence of someones garden Sad
gz

[quote="Treacodactyl"][quote="JB"][quote="Treacodactyl"]What's the solution thought? I thought most people, including DS users, were against pay per throw?[/quot but I don't think there are any plans to collect kitchen waste or encourage people to reduce it.[/quote

We have a waste food caddy, collected once a week.
(I have a spare one which is used for carrying waste to the compost heap!)
Rob R

If you were (potentially) going to have to pay more to have it removed from your property you'd probably have a different perspective upon how much better it is. I agree that more could be done though, but I do believe this is a step in the right direction, instead of a step backwards, as was in the pipeline.

I too have lived in urban areas for short periods of time (college) and people did dump small amounts of stuff regularly, but the council also cleared it up regularly so no, I don't accept that it is it equally an urban problem. There are plenty of places in town to dump, but those places only remain so because it is then taken away, that doesn't happen out here and we bin it (or scrap it). I would greatly resent having to pay to dispose of that rubbish under the now scrapped proposals, and if it were as big a problem for you, so would you.

I guess in an urban situation, the council clearing it up aside, there are more people dumping small amounts, but there are also more owners of 'sites' to spread it out across, so it is a pain for everyone but only a relatively small pain. Owners in rural areas own more 'sites', so they personally have to dispose of more (and, as you rightly pointed out, sometimes in greater quantities, however throwing a carrier bag or even single items from a car window means we also get the small amounts too). I don't mind clearing up and keeping the place tidy but I can't afford to pay for other peoples rubbish, although I would still collect it.
cab

Rob R wrote:

I too have lived in urban areas for short periods of time (college) and people did dump small amounts of stuff regularly, but the council also cleared it up regularly so no, I don't accept that it is it equally an urban problem.


You were lucky. Its a battle of wills to get ours to collect fly tipped waste; I've seen them turn up to collect a dumped trailer full of waste that had been there for months, take the trailer, leave the waste, and have to issue another job for that. Our council is about as much use as a mackerel in a gunfight when it comes to this kind of thing.
Rob R

Funny, I've never actually travelled into/through Cambridge but now I'm imagining it must be a pretty skanky place to live- it being the famous university city I just jumped to the wrong conclusion.
cab

Rob R wrote:
Funny, I've never actually travelled into/through Cambridge but now I'm imagining it must be a pretty skanky place to live- it being the famous university city I just jumped to the wrong conclusion.


It isn't so much skanky as extraordinarily badly run. The middle is very clean, very well kept and most pleasant. Get outside of that and its still pretty good, but thats rather in spite of the pathetic nature of the City council; fly tipping is an obvious example of where they're useless. Typically the lag time between me reporting some fly tipped waste and it being collected has been about three weeks, optimistically it might happen in a fortnight. For a city thats decidedly naff. It means that by the time one lot has been collected, there may well be more lots to pick up. And yes, you do see council 'rangers' passing one lot of fly tipping to collect another nearby, i.e. only collecting the one on their list.

Still a fine city to live in, but in my opinion fly tipping here is a particularly bad problem.
Rob R

I never report fly tipped waste any more, it just isn't worth me wasting my time. You're far better off taking out what is useful and binning the rest, rather than report it and be constantly frustrated that it never gets collected, or because it's in the ditch and not on public property it is your responsibility.
cab

Rob R wrote:
I never report fly tipped waste any more, it just isn't worth me wasting my time. You're far better off taking out what is useful and binning the rest, rather than report it and be constantly frustrated that it never gets collected, or because it's in the ditch and not on public property it is your responsibility.


I've discovered that if I drag it from the green areas on to the pavements, or from a street managed by one part of the council to the roadside, and then report it, the same people turn up and collect the same waste but in a shorter time. Naturally to do so is illegal, but not to do so seems bloody stupid (almost as bloody stupid as the fact that the same waste is collected by the same people from near as dammit the same location, but with an extra week or three delay).
Rob R

I wonder how far I'd have to drag it to get someone to collect it, historic York, perhaps Laughing

Not all fly tipping is so bad though- someone dumped a perfectly useful wooden bed during the winter- we cooked on that for a good while. Cool
cab

All the wood for the bird table out front was scavenged from fly-tipped material. I was monstrously p144es off a week after making it, when I found a fly-tipped bird table.
Pilsbury

At several of our Tesco stores there a are large recyceling units, you put your club card in and then feed your recyceling into the opening one peice at a time, it somehow checks what it is made off and trundles it down a belt inside the machine to be deposited in the correct bin to be recycled.
When they first started you got 1/2 a point for a glass bottle, 1/2 a point for a steel can and 1 point for the aluminium cans and nothing but a thank you for the plastic, now we took all our recycleing there for a fewe months and got a good few points then they suddenly scrapped all points except 1/2 a point for a aluminium can and it wasnt worth our time so we just sent it to the council recyceling unit now but how about the councils installing the machines and giving people a card to collect points on, it might just be credits to use for services such as collecting a sofa or removing a bees nest or paying libaray fines, no real cash value as such but it would mean less waste to collect and higher recycleing revenue and should at least help encourage people to try a bit more.
Bebo

Rob R wrote:
What we really need are a few more rag and bone men...


My great-grandad was a rag and bone man. Never knew him, but my mum remembers getting a ride on this horse and cart when she was little.
Jamanda

Bebo wrote:
Rob R wrote:
What we really need are a few more rag and bone men...


My great-grandad was a rag and bone man. Never knew him, but my mum remembers getting a ride on this horse and cart when she was little.


That's cool. I remember the raggaboooone man brightening up my English lit lessons every week. (He drove his horse down the road yelling outside the window rather than coming in and spouting Shakespeare)
Rob R

cab wrote:
All the wood for the bird table out front was scavenged from fly-tipped material. I was monstrously p144es off a week after making it, when I found a fly-tipped bird table.


Laughing Laughing
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