| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| jema |
Anyone use VMware or Microsoft Virtual PC?I am getting very interested in this field.In my business I seem to buy endless hardware 
For business use I am running currently two desktops and two notebooks, and I was figuring on needing to buy another shortly. It comes down to the need to maintain legacy environments. It seems to me that with Vmware/virtual PC I will be able to: 1) use vmware converter to copy a physical machine to a small set of files that will be runnable from any PC with the vmware player. 2) run windows in a virtual machine that can be simply wiped. e.g. if you browse the web from such a machine and use something like google browser sync to record bookmarks, then you can laugh in the face of malware  just keep a safe copy of the virtual machine and copy it once a week.
3) very easily take your working environment with you. 4) Run several PCs in one. Anyone else using stuff like this? |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Yes - I use VMware Workstation all the time and it's excellent software. And at $189 excellent value IMHO.
My main Ubuntu-based development "machine" is in fact a Workstation-based VM. I used it for LAMP development, occasionally C, and general day-to-day stuff where a Linux command prompt is handier than a Windows machine. Any specific questions, fire away! A. |
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| Northern_Lad |
VMware works fine as long as you don't run them all together, where performance would be as expeced.
If you want to use it for pre-configured test environments it will certainly save you time. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Linux-based VMs seem to run reasonably snappily - I mostly use just the one, but this machine (pre-XP 1.4GHz Athlon, 1.5Gbs RAM) will happily run two Linux VMs, with GUI, simultaneously.
Windows-based VMs are a slightly different story though. I've no experience of XP-based VMs, but a Win2K is rather more sluggish than a Linux one. Usable, but sluggish. Ever since Workstation 5 memory usage has been much improved. Previously it would simply grab the amount you'd allocated to the VM (e.g. 512Mb), whereas now it only grabs what it actually needs - making running multiple VMs much more of a possibility (save for CPU load). A. |
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| jema |
well I am just learning. So far I see: 1) I can run VmPlayer for free. 2) I can download images of things like Ubuntu for free. 3) Vmware converter says it will make a physical machine a virtual one for free. Do you see where I'm going with this
What do I get for me $190? I have to say VMwares documentation is crap. For example the VMplayer help makes constant references to ACE's and even the index does not define what it means 
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Note of caution: the shared folders mechanism is very handy, but traditionally has only been suitable for for light-medium usage. If you had a sizeable C source tree on the host machine, and you compiled from within the VM, it really loads both host and VM with heavy context switching. This may have been improved in WS6.
A. |
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| vegplot |
We use Virtual PC to emulate older Windows machines (IE6 web compatibility test etc.) The downside is the requirement to have a licenced copy of Windows on the virtual machine which in my view is a real hinderance. MS do offer Windows images which don't require a licence but are normally time limited then you have to re-download.
I've not tried VMWare but at that price I think it's worth a look at. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Don't know anything about VMware converter - prior to your mentioning that I was under the impression that VMs could only be created via Workstation, but run by either Workstation or Player.
I've not looked at the docs for a while - I always thought it was reasonable, but they have hugely extended their product range and possibly the quality of docs is now mismatched. A. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Another thing to consider: being able to snapshot a machine, and revert an entire VM to a previous known state (e.g. a major upgrade went bork-side) is very handy. I don't know off-hand if Player can do this; if it can't, I'd suggest it is well worth the purchase price to have this sort of facility. VMs can be cloned too - which might be particularly handy for you.
A. |
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| jema |
I really am looking at a reason to buy, but isn't a snapshot inherently just a copy of the files... | ||||||
| Barefoot Andrew |
Yes, effectively - do it by hand if you wish. The snapshot feature works on a live, running machine.
You can also set up multiple virtual networks with Workstation - again, I don't know if this can be done with Player. I think WS6 can be downloaded for a 30-day trial - why not give it a spin? I know nothing about Virtual PC. I did look briefly at Innotek's Virtual Box though - which is free. Promising, but not sufficiently reliable at the moment IMHO. Lacks features and robustness of VMware. A. |
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| jema |
Being of a slightly sneaky disposition It occurred to me that I might need workstation once only, and that would be to set up Ubuntu Hardy Heron and that is due in about 30 days!
I'd rather really be able to try before buying. Notably vmware converter has just fallen over with an inadequately explained error on my xp box! |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Entirely sensible. Just in case you've not guessed I'm quite a fan of machine virtualisation. I've been using VMware WS for ages now, and I've more than had my $189 worth. I think it's great software.
I'm also impressed in a more general sense with virtualisation software: the technical implications of getting a full-blown OS to run effectively as an application within another OS are amazingly complicated. A. |
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| jema |
Nothing I seem to do makes vmware converter want to play ball.
So I'm heading back to the drawing board and installing XP pro on a virtual pc instead, I will then go through the day or threes pain of trying to recreate the legacy environment 
I guess though assuming I can do this I will finally have a really safe version of the things that need to be safe. |
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| dougal |
So where is Parallels in this discussion?
http://www.parallels.com/en/products The Mac product has a good rep, and the PC 'workstation' version is only $50 |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Never heard of it  I've been using VMWS for years - not really needed to look elsewhere.
A. |
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| jema |
Well part of it is a matter of popularity and therefore availability of things. For a lousy example, I really like the idea of:
one of many vmware virtual appliances. But the darn download ain't working. But the general idea of being able to pick up images of software that will work in their own little environment is fantastic. |
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| jema |
I have to say that as a nerd this is fun, I have converted a microsoft virtual XP PC to a vmware one with vmware converter and it is now running under Linux.
Under XP I have another version of XP pro running using my spare XP pro licence, as well as a Ubuntu Hardy Heron Alpha. Of course I have a zillion windows updates to download before I can get down to real work 
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| Snowball |
Can I have my husband back please, he seems to have wandered off to a strange planet. | ||||||
| Jamanda |
Ubuntu Hardy Heron Alpha.
This put me in mind of the Swedish chef off the Muppets for some reason
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| jema |
Next question!
I have my xp pro vmware image, created by creating an xp pro install in virtual pc and then using VMware converter to import it
I will probably want to move this around PCs for a bit until I find what is best, if I move it between PCs will it go through a find new hardware and windows activation lark? or does the virtualization present a constant set of hardware? |
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| sean |
Apparently you can't. |
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| Snowball |
Oh well, you can have him then. | ||||||
| sean |
I don't want him, he's your responsibility. | ||||||
| jema |
Now running my official XP Pro under Linux, and I find it rather ironic that the BBC news now plays sound which has been erratic in my set up. So the vmware player is making a rather good job of interfacing. Notably the disk space actually taken up so far is 4.7gb which in todays terms is nothing. I am very curious as to what the space will be when all is installed. |
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| Snowball |
I take no responsibility at all. He is wandering round the house muttering similar to the above constantly. Sure you don't want him? |
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| jema |
I feel entitled to mutter, this all pays the mortgage and despite assorted backups of it all, we were down to one dodgy notebook and one in use copy of windows XP pro having actual running copies of things.
That is a klutzy way of keeping your income safe
With VMware I now have it all working within a 10gb virtual PC, which I have little doubt that when I copy the files to Linux and another notebook will also work in the VMWare player. If Mickysoft were not charging £70 a throw still for XP Home, I'd buy more licences and create a seperate operating system for things like the accounts as well. e.g. give everything vital its own fully working and independent system. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Bless, he's getting all excited. Was he making muttering things about virtual machines in his sleep Snowball? Oh hang, Jema's nocturnal.
The virtual hardware environment should remain consistent - I think - across any host machine you deploy it on, unless you specifically change the hardware. I think. One thing to be cautious of is network identification - if you simply copy a VM and use it in two places you may get a MAC clash. If you clone it, VMware tries (I think) to generate unique identification for the clone which an XP VM might see as a hardware change.
Indeed. VMware's interfacing is pretty darn good - much more robust and reliable than Innotek's Virtual Box.
Ooh, domestic!
A. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
At some point during 2008, if business goes well, I might be up for replacing my main machine. In which case I'd probably through some money at it and go for a bit of a monster beastie, capable of running multiple VMs effortlessly.
A. |
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| jema |
I'm running Ubuntu with XPPro under vmware on a 2ghz Core Duo with 2gb ram, and it all seems pretty smooth.
I could possibly see me wanting to run 3 vmware machines at once though. 1) Development 2) XP 3) CVS server I think I will wait for the Hardy Heron for this, as that is a 5 year supported system. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Tell you what though, as I've commented previously running Netbeans and VMware at the same time makes this machine work its keep
A. |
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| jema |
Been playing on my main windows PC, which only has 1gb of memory (2gb extra on order) and performance is actually quite awful when you have anything much going on, my pagefile is at 580mb which would explain things
I have found another valid XPHome licence which will provide a long term home for IE6 which I need to have around to test web pages with 
I am also pretty much stripping machines of anything where direct hardware access is not a major virtue. I am sure the end result will be a set up that is ten fold safer than a typical PC with windows, or for that matter Linux. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
So, did you download the 30-day trial of WS, or are you still in player/converter land?
A. |
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| jema |
I am in the feeling that VMware are shooting themselves in the foot position
The whole point of VMWare for me is to safeguard things by having work in virtual PCs that can be run on any of my hardware platforms. For whatever reason that is currently 4 PCs, so to run a unified system would cost me 4 licences, £360 notes  and I still have not read anything about workstation that tells me it can do anything that I cannot do for free 
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Hmm, reasonable points. Maybe it's not the tool for you. A 5-licence version of WS6 costs $899 or sommat.
A. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Having said that, if WS contained something you needed (that wasn't part of player for example), you'd only need ONE copy of WS - and simply deploy the free player on as many machines as you chose.
A. |
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| jema |
I think some features like the shared folders are only available in WS, so the player alone won't support them.
As I see it workstation gives you: 1) Ability to create virtual machines, something you can get around as I have been doing. 2) Snapshots, something doable by copying files simply. 3) ACE is now licenced, and I may be wrong, but I think this will kind of package the player and the machine so you could plug a memory stick into any PC and run your VirtualPC very easily. Pretty cool but once again not beyond the wit of man to put a virtual PC on a memory stick along with the VMPlayer installer. 4) The shared folders, but you can set up shares on the network anyway. |
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| jema |
another dumb question, I converted a virtual machine to an "ACE master" so that it can be deployed to a memory stick etc.
Something which is hardly hard to do with a normal virtual machine. But now I want to manually copy that machine elsewhere so that it can be played with a VMWare player without all the fancy bits. e.g. in essence I want something I can use as I would use if I was not buying a license. I'd emphasize again I want to buy a license, but I don't want to feel trapped. But having gone ACE I cannot see a way back
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Dunno - not an ACE user here.
A. |
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| jema |
I still cannot see a way of doing it, and so I have started again from scratch
It is a real shame that something simple (albeit very clever internally) gets made over complex like that. I think I will be sticking with the basic virtual machines, and if I am going somewhere where I might need to play on someone elses PC, I will get really clever and put the VMWare player installer on the memory stick
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| jema |
just as another point of simplicity, now I am doing it the basic way I am cloning copies by copying files into new directories, and when I do so I create an empty file with a file name like "sendmail bind installed" and these are building up into a log of actions.
In terms of being practical and understandable and for that matter clean, this is better in my view than the snapshotting feature of vmware workstation. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Sun have a free virtualisation offering called xVM Virtual Box. No idea what it's like.
A. |
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| happytechie |
As someone who works on mutiple VMs all day long the thing you will need soon is a network drive to store all your files in. Set it to be mapped as the same drive letter on al the windows VMs (H is traditional) and it can be mounted as /home/jema/network_drive on the ubuntu host.
If you start trying to run servers as 'stateless' machines you'll need to make sure that all the app data is on a network drive so this can re-used when you restore or replace the virtual OS. Standard places and install locations are great here. |
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| jema |
To be honest I pretty much gave up. There were issues with doing what I wanted on the notebook and it was all too much to fight through.
I have contented myself with having my crucial windows development environment as a virtual machine I can keep safe in a few places. That combined with CVS keeping the development source control on a memory stick, and the fact all live files are safe being live on servers, leaves me set up apart from not having a full work environment that I can use away from the office.... probably no bad thing really. |
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| orangepippin |
I have been using the Windows 2008 Server Hyper-V for a few months now and am very pleased with it. I have Windows 2003 Server, Vista, Windows XP, and Open Suse virtual environments - the latter, amazingly, is actually supported by Microsoft under Hyper-V. I used to use Virtual PC, but Hyper-V seems more solid and easier to manage. | ||||||
| Barefoot Andrew |
VMware WS 6.5 has an interesting feature called "unity mode" that allows an app inside the VM to display on the host desktop. Not tried it myself yet but looks useful.
A. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Must say, it is quite nice being able to give a virtual machine 2Gbs of memory...
A. |
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| vegplot |
I've just set up a Win 2003 server under Windows 2008 Hyper-V host OS installing it from a ISO image. Performance is incredible, I set up a simple web site on the guest OS and from a cold start the web site was running in less than 15 seconds, 9 seconds to the Ctrl +Alt +Del prompt in the console.
I'm testing VMWare as well and that looks pretty good except support for 2008R2 is still experimental. Comparing VMware ESXi with Hyper-V there isn't much to differentiate them from each other expect VMware ESXi is free and a much smaller foot print but can't be used for anything else aside from managing virtual machines. |