| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Woodburner |
Exactly as I predicted . . . Still on round two . . .:SI've had chickens for nearly a year, now. No complaints, didn't expect any.Got a cockerel a month ago, and the complaints have come within a day or two of my prediction and from the people I expected, too. Not that I actually know them, but in eight years, they haven't 'mixed', so I figured that if anyone was going to complain it'd be them  Even though they are over 10 doors away, and the chooks are well down the garden (it's parallel to theirs).
So, how did I know when they would complain? A chicken keeping friend always asks if I've had any complaints. Last time she was here was when the weather had just warmed up again, and I said no, but I reckon any day now someone from one of the new houses will. How did I know? Because it was so warm it'd be stuffy if you had the windows closed, so they'll have opened their windows and heard him in the early morning for the first time. Why they don't just close the windows again, I haven't a clue, it's cool enough at 4 am. I guess they'd rather moan than do something themselves. 
Also begs the question: Why do they live in the country? I moved here so I could keep chickens! |
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| random |
I hope this doesn't cause any real problems Woodburner. This is one of my pet gripes too. People who move to the country then expect a sanitised version like in some photograph. Definitely no noises at inconvenient times and of course no animals should ever poo anywhere.
They should just go back to the city if they don't like it. 
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks |
I've neighbours like that. They said no cockrels from the start which actually suited us. But moan about the countryside  We have a beautiful lime tree those canopy is over part of our garden - they hate it a) it drops leaves - hey its a tree... and b) it casts shade over part of their garden; even though they rarely sit out in said garden.
They're the sort of people who'd really rather have astroturf for lawn but even then she'd be out there vacuuming it daily
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| snozzer |
Get another 2, then offer to reduce the numbers to 1 as a compromise
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| Woodburner |
I reckon that's the type. I'm not 100% sure which of two houses is the one that called, but there was a pill box at the bottom of one of their gardens, you know the massive lump of concrete things? Personally I would have banked topsoil around it and made a rockery out of it and grown mushrooms inside it! But they had it removed at a cost of thousands! Even the builder hadn't considered it worthwhile getting rid of it.  So my money is on their being from that house.
Thanks, random, I hope so too, but he made a point (to my son, I was in the garden at the time ) of the fact that he has been here 8 years . That rings a few bells, I can only think that it's something to do with prior usage or somesuch and that he is prepared to fight, using the fact that no-one had cockerels when he moved here as leverage.
Little does he realise that this is a joint venture with my Mum, who lives next door, that the cockerel and main chicken run is in her garden and that we had chickens there, until about 40 years ago, as indeed did many of the neighbours.  If he wants a fight he will get one!
Heh, heh, nice thought, snozzer. Only ptoblem is that I will eventually want at least two cockerels! This gives me an idea on similar lines though: I could offer to try and breed a quieter cockerel, pointing out that unfortunately this will mean that for a while there will be more cockerels, while I check out the fertility of the quieter replacement, as cockerels that don't crow as much or as loudly are often infertile.
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| Woodburner |
Exactly as I predicted . . . updateWell he's been around again, to complain obviously, and he is indeed from the house that had the pillbox. My powers of deduction are awesome
The crazy thing is that he hasn't been woken (by my cockerel) since the last time, so that means that he is complaining asap about something that has happened just twice in two months  What a deleted! AFAICT he is still crowing every day at 4am, (it's a bit hard to be sure as I have got used to him and just go back to sleep even if he does wake me up.) He says he has been sleeping with the windows open, so unless he meant just last night, I can only suppose that he has in reality got used to him, just as I have.  (You can't hear him hardly at all with them shut, you have to keep really quiet and listen very carefully.)
He says that other people are complaining too. I said that the people I had spoken to had actually said how nice it was to hear a cockerel in the morning, to which he replied that there are plenty of people complaining. I said, well I know everyone from no4 to no30, and none of them are bothered, to which he replied that they are probably just too scared to say anything!! Well you could have knocked me down with a feather! From number 4 down to no 30 with just 4 exceptions have known me since I was a baby and 2 of those have known me since I was a kid at school. So the thought of any of them too scared to say "(My name) would you mind doing something about your cockerel, he's waking us up at 4 in the morning." Well it has me ROFLMAO I didn't tell him what a couple of people said about his attitude.  Maybe next time I did slip in the information that I was born and grew up here, which he didn't know (so just who HAS he talked to?!) My guess is that they were too scared of HIM and just agreed with him to be polite. He did mention one person specifically, but he works from home and sleeps such irregular hours that I rarely see him. Mum and I both reckon he would have said something if he was really bothered, as he's only next door, and we're always out in the garden. If I don't see him soon I will ask his landlords if he's said anything to them. I don't reckon he has though as it would have got back to me by now.
Enough ranting! I have a question. Would a call to EHO to find out just where I stand be potentially pre-emptive or courting disaster? Two questions actually.
If I rent a field and keep them there would that make any difference to how much credence (if that's the right word) would be given to any complaints? Ironically two of the three fields that are both suitable and unused ATM are closer to his house than my garden! |
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| Cathryn |
I'd wait until he actually makes a formal complaint myself. If he ever does now he realises he is probably alone in complaining. And I wouldn't look at renting a field just because of him unless you want to do so anyway.
New noise can be annoying but hopefully he will continue to get used to it and not hear it at all soon. I miss hearing the cockerel. 
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| vegplot |
Don't tempt fate. As Cathryn says wait until a complaint is made. However, it may be useful to speak to each neighbour in turn and ask them what they think. | ||||
| Green Rosie |
I agree with Cathryn - only rent the field of you would have done so anyway - not because of him. | ||||
| Woodburner |
I think I'll be 'out' tonight. He's just been around again (on his way out to ? work?) only I was next door, and son wasn't dressed so didn't answer the door. But what I thought was a car alarm playing up was actually him, so I can now add 'hypocrite' to the list of his undesireable attributes. (He was very heavy on the doorbell last time.)
He hasn't yet found out the proper way to complain, but according to a mutual friend, (who tells me to pay no attention to him  ) he's getting a petition going. Well, I don't think it has any legal weight. Does it? Or does that constitute a formal complaint?
I reckon that's what he's calling about anyway, just wants to deliver it directly to me in person. The excuse would obviously be 'to make sure I get it/don't deny getting it' but I think he wants the excuse to have another go at me. He is the scary one. He was on the verge of losing his temper last time. I really don't want to talk to him, or even answer the door, but will reserve calling the police until (if) he starts shouting or getting physical. I'm seriously thinking of only talking to him from an upstairs window. If calling the EHO is not a good idea how about DEFRA? Or the CAB for advice on dealing with him at least? Edit: Incidentally, there is another cockerel on the other side of the village, they've had him a year and had only good comments. Just my luck to get the nasty neighbour Does their having had a cockerel before I got mine give me any legal advantage? It's about 1/2 a mile away as the crow flies.
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| caths |
poor you!
snozzers idea I like
but for now I agree with your neighbour - ignore him, and if he chooses to come to your door tell him you'll do what you like in your garden and he can do what he likes in his, then shut the door if he does complain to the council it depends on how "sensible" (ie rural) they are - they may take his side - at that time you may ultimately have to keep the cockerel quiet or get rid of it, but don't do anything until then - you may even earn the dubious honour of owning a cockerel with an ASBO
if he starts a petition how many people will sign it? Not many from what you say. Don't let the b***** get you down
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| Woodburner |
I have gone off the two cockerels idea actually
Mum says they are likely to compete. Nutty (our cockerel) is not bad as cockerels go, I can usually go back to sleep easily even with my windows open but the other day he started crowing at the usual time, but was only just stopping for breath between crows. Thinking I knew the reason for the annoying change of pace (being in a coop on his own) I went out to let them all out, and was startled just as I got to the coop, by a fox barking in the field beyond! It's taken a couple of days, but he has slowed down again. Phew! I would hate to have a cockerel crowing that much every day. Re the petition I was going to ask 'how many signatures does it need?' but doing a bit more detailed research I found out he doesn't need one at all anyway One written complaint is all it takes, and the council is required to investigate. Not sure which council though, parish, borough or county. I guess it would be whichever employs the EHO
Oh caths, how I would love to tell him to mind his own business lol or even simply to grow up! There's clearly a lot going on here under the surface though, as Nutty's crowing alone is not enough to keep anyone awake (with the exception of people new to the sound and the couple of mornings just mentioned). While his inability to go back to sleep may be from causes not of his making, it's hardly my or Nutty's fault. He also has clear anger management issues, as witness, amongst other things, his inappropriate use of the car horn. His saying people (that I have knowm for years) are too scared of me to say anything is bizarre too, especially as I was shaking like a leaf and gabbling, too. Could it be that he is scared of me? The only reason I can think of is that he knows he is on shaky ground, at least as far as local opinion is concerned. Backing up that idea is the fact that he seems to be deliberatly steering clear of older traditional folk in favour of the yuppie crowd. I'd actually like to see his deleted petition to see just who has he talked to!
I don't want to go to the extreme of calling on people explicitly to confirm what their opinions are, for a couple of reasons: The people whose opinion matters the most to me I see socially anyway, and my calling on people I don't know could be seen as harassment. (His calling on me is definitely harassment!) I do wonder if he is intimidating people into signing his petition.
On a lighter note, having un-mothballed my dictaphone and inconspicously fixed the micophone to the front of the house . . . he didn't call on his way back, and still hasn't called, with or without petition.
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| Green Man |
I would give the neighbours you get on with, some eggs now and again to keep them 'sweet'. Nobody could accept eggs and sign a petition. I do know how you feel, after years of keeping Peafowl I had to remove them when a new bungalow was built and they kept on moaning. I liked their ‘bird song’ at 4a.m. in the summer.
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| Cathryn |
Yes, good idea pass the eggs around.
My local Council is inundated with neighbour complaint problems. They have a huge back log. It might be the same in your area. Others use a small team to arbitrate on disputes. Try not to worry, avoid your difficult neighbour, be a good friend to all the others. |
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| tiggy |
would that the d***head with the sporty exhaust and late night motoring habit be persuaded to swap his car for a cockerel  Im sorry you are getting all this hassle over a harmless bird,bet this neighbour also drives round in "wurlitzer on wheels" but doesnt see anything wrong in that sort of noise pollution.As I type I am staying up till tired enough to sleep through "rev up Ratbag" coming home, a cockerel would not bother me as I dont regard chickens as a threat.Ive not been run over by one yet!!!My mother tells me that when we lived at RAF Manby I would sleep through in spite of aircraft taking off and landing, also I can sleep through lorries starting and leaving the yard in the early hours. People just dont seem to realise that the countryside is a working environment not a blasted theme park. sorry ive had a bit of a rant but loved ones have been killed by cars and Id love to hear a harmless bird instead of cars
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| Woodburner |
That might work on the neighbours that I don't know, no need for the ones that I do, and . . . I'd rather chew my arm off than give him anything, but in any case it wouldn't work, that's not what he wants.
He wants to win a fight. Unfortuantely for him (and me in a way) he has chosen his opponent badly, I am as stubborn as a mule when it comes to matters of principle. I realise that at the national level of things I am as doomed to failure as those who wanted to keep the hunt, but at a local level, he is going to lose face whether he wins or loses. I am pretty confident that even I can make a soundproof or a lightproof coop in the 4-5 years it is likely to take to get to court. Once that is done I don't think he will have leg to stand on, so it is unlikely to get that far anyway.
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| Cathryn |
I am sorry, I find this a little unclear. How often has this man actually complained to you? Are you sure about a petition? Have you seen it or is his just something someone else has said to you in passing?
You said yourself how annoying your cockerel was to you when the fox had disturbed him. Our cockerel used to drive us mad at times when he decided 4 am was the time to wake up. And we have been known to lean out of the window and shout right back at him. However he was our cockerel and a good natured creature and our daughter wouldn't let us strangle him. Yep your neighbour sounds unreasonable and it is a shame that there is this ill feeling but maybe had you met him half way and gone round to explain why the cockerel had been exceptionally noisy? It might not have worked but it might have done...
It is a shame that it takes away some of your pleasure at having hens (and a cockerel). |
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| @Calli |
Look just get a couple of these cockerals in the front garden....
Malay Game |
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| Woodburner |
This last was his third time of calling but he doesn't hang about. First time I was in the garden, he spoke to my son., who was very nice to him. Second time I was indoors but only half dressed. He didn't wait long before firmly pressing the doorbell again, but must have started to walk away the instant he took his finger off again as he was halfway back to the road when I opened the door. Honestly if I'd been on the loo he'd've been gone before I'd dried my hands! Third time I was next door taking Mum a morning cup of tea in bed. Son was not dressed, so calls me on the intercom, which was to hand for him but downstairs for me, as I'm going downstairs to answer it, I can hear what I thought to be a car alarm going off, and by the time I have dashed back (we have a snicket) and opened the door he was already gone, presumably in the car. TBH I think he's just making a show of being cross and impatient, doesn't really want to complain at all and really is scared of something. Short answer, twice, plus one failed pseudo attempt. The frantic crowing episode was after I had talked to him, and it was no louder than usual just more rapid. Wouldn't have made much odds though, except I might have remembered the soundproofing idea and tried to pacify him with that. The petition definitely exists, I haven't seen it but I did ask was he just talking or has he actually got one worked out, and they said he definitely had one, and looking at the cars parked on his drive, it's got at least 5 signatures, but . . . I've been mulling over the practicalities of soundproofing a coop for a few weeks and managed to dig out an old duvet, from the moving boxes while clearing out the box room and last night's effort was pretty successful, I could still hear him but he was definitely muffled. So soon after he'd started crowing (this morning), I went down the road to the footpath by they guy's house, went past his house, couldn't hear Nutty, walked a bit further, still couldn't hear him. I could hear lots of pigeons and doves though, and they pretty much drowned out everything else. By standing very still and quiet, next to his patio, (there's no hedge/shrubs there) I think I did manage to hear him between the coos though, no louder than the rest of the background chatter. So I think to myself, if it's that hard to hear him, just how loud is he, when he's not covered? So I waited til 7 o'clock took the cover off, and went down again, and b***** me if the doves didn't still drown him out! He was definitely audible this time, but no louder than the doves. I don't know why I never thought of checking out the noise level down there before, I guess I just took his word as I could hear him from my bedroom.
So, I don't really care anymore. This worm is definitely turning. I'm so angry, half the village will hear this story before I get it out of my system! lol What is the saying? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned? I'm also going to see the CAB to find out where is the appropriate place to register a complaint of harassment. These last few weeks have been hell. Even now, I am still expecting him to call, he had no justification in calling in the first place, so why would he stop now?
Edit: Forgot to mention that my son volunteered to seperate him and put him in a box every night, rather than cough "get rid of him" cough |
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| Woodburner |
lol, Calli, I only have the one mature cockerel and he's a treasure, not to put in harm's way. Plus he's not agressive enough
Also forgot to mention before as it was getting late, I don't actually have any eggs for bribes yet, as my pullets are only 9 weeks old. My only laying hen is a silkie, and she only just lays enough eggs for my Mum!
Oh tiggy, so sad to hear that. I think part of why this guy scares me so much, is that he comes across as the same type as someone else I never want to see or hear from again! A bit like your reaction to cars.
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| alison |
As far as bribe eggs go, I think I would try and find some from someone somewhere. It would be worth it!
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| SheepShed |
Fortunately help is at hand for these sensitive people - Farmers to be forced to clear up after their cows "In a landmark victory, the Ramblers Association has won the right to take to court any farmer who does not clear up his herd’s cow pats from any public right of way across his land."
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| katie |
And quite right too! ( I love the low-speed canal boat chase on the same page!) | ||||
| JB |
Unfortunately it's all too beleivable that someone would try and bring a case just like that. Not the ramblers, they seem a little bit more grounded, but all the aga louts who put the price of rural properties to something unaffordable and are then surprised that they can't dial out for pizza. |
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| SheepShed |
And the village shop doesn't even stock simple basics like focaccia and balsamic vinegar. My dear, it's like living in the dark ages
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| Woodburner |
JB you beat me to it! | ||||
| Woodburner |
d'oh my powers of deduction aren't quite as awesome as I thought. For the sake of accuracy I should post the following: he isn't the occupant of the last house, he's in the last but one, there's a number missing somewhere between 30 and 36 so he wasn't responsible for the removal of the pillbox. He is however still over 100 yards from my property.
This became apparent while discussing the following 'notice' with neighbours. 
I had relented on my decision to contact CAB, etc. but this is too much, especially as poor Nutty has been closely confined under a duvet since this guys last doorbell episode mentioned previously. |
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| Jamanda |
What a bleep. What was the reaction of the neighbours with whom you discussed it? | ||||
| Woodburner |
The usual mutters about townies coming to the country.
I have jsut had a nice chat with his next door neighbour, having been told they are nice people and find I actually know the lady by sight and have chatted with her when I lived here before. Anyway she says they can hear him but the doves are louder. |
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| tiggy |
this looks like a serious attempt at bullying. This thought occurred to me about noise. Everywhere is infested by people who like to blast loud music from moving cars and they get away with it. So you could record your cockerel and others , real mega loud heavy metal type birds play them in your car and said neighbour would have trouble getting a complaint together as they were portable music. However this is not subtle and would upset more than your target audience, ie d****head neighbour. However suppose there was a downloadable selection of cockerels on my space or something and you could then convince yoof they were a cool thing to sample into their musical projects you could end up with chicken rap or something and a new take on the birdie song Downloadable cockerels would be a big hit with me ,escort van with chicken sound effects. On a serious note this problem needs sorting on a normal for the area basis eg country equals agriculture, thats what its for.The whole thing shews just how far we have got from the land and the realities of what we eat
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| Rosemary Judy |
Environmental health are used to such complaints and have a legal framework with which to check them against.
I once lived next door to a woman who left her rottweiler and German Shepherd in a kitchen 8' by 5', from 8 am to 6 pm. My house was attached to hers and these gorgeous dogs barked all day. I worked from home..... RSPCA came and had a look, but said they had food and water and the space was big enough
EH gave me a diary to keep a record of the barking, and we were just on the point of starting to check the decibell level, when she rehomed them.... If your noise is as low as you say, you have nothing to worry about - contact EH yourself to ask about the process they go through.... just ignore this man - he may well complain, but only if the law says it is too noisy, can something be done. He is just a sad and very lonely person.... |
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| Woodburner |
tiggy, youmean like this? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OvZrhdy2UdY
On your more serious note, what is normal depends somewhat on personal experience. For him it's that he's been here 8/10 years and there hasn't been a cockerel in that time, for me it's that I was here 40-50 years ago when it was normal. The rest of the street considers that normal includes a (non-muffled) cockerel at dawn. 
Rosemary Judy, tbh it's not the EHO that worries me so much as the guy himself, his attitude and what he is trying to do, however unsuccessfully. He's pissed off even more people now by dropping copies of that notice in everyones' letter boxes. All still anonymous. Despite Nutty's muffling I am fully expecting him to carry on until the EHO monitor the dB levels themselves, and even then if they leave the monitor with him I don't expect him to use it honestly.
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| tiggy |
Woodburner It concerns me greatly that you have to put up with this Bully, it is classic cowardly bullying.I hope your neighbours will stick up for you and Nutty, I would if you were my neighbour. We have checked with EH over using our shredder and a couple of other related DIY noise issues and found them very helpfull. We have a neighbour who specialises in complaining and she dislikes us with a vengence. On a lighter note I loved techno chicken and will have to have the occasional browse for similar.If somebody ever gets round to making and posting downloadable mp3 files of cockerels and chickens I would play them in the van because I think more people should be exposed to natural sounds. My inlaws used to keep peacocks and they can sing a bit, techno peacock now theres a thought
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| LynneA |
Maybe talk to your long standing friends and neighbours about researching ASBO's if he post any more notices? | ||||
| sean |
Have you tried http://www.nfh.org.uk/ ? Mary-Jane always recommends it for this sort of thing. | ||||
| Woodburner |
Thankfully the neighbours are sticking up for me. If he continues his harassment/campaigning or indeed persists in involving the EHO after the diary stage, I will be seeking legal advice. I think for an ASBO he has to have at least threatened violence. | ||||
| gil |
I think the EH are pretty wary of becoming drawn into personal/neighbour disputes, and used in that way. You may well find them sympathetic. | ||||
| dpack |
unpleasant ,
pro chook neighbours good and should be encouraged get legal advice avoid confrontation offer diplomacy with witnesses some crabby people turn out to need very little to make them go away ,often it is other problems that make them chewy and these are easily deflected as a rooster will not be the biggest thing upsetting them it is difficult to talk to angry peeps (it is easier if ones foot is in their mouth and they are in an arm and wrist lock ,im a naughty boy )but it can be done ,even very angry folk can be persuaded that being nicer is good be calm be polite make a friend be careful cos they can go off and that is messy i know that will seem glib and arrogant but the polite thing works wonders if one gets a good balance of common sense in ones approach ,a sense of control of oneself ,and a reasonable case once polite relations have been established please be careful with the angry man , i think inviting him to meet and discuss the matter calmly on neutral ground (make sure your henchmen are lurking )might be a good way for all to benefit without any unpleasantness needed proactive is good ,be the white hat , maybe harrass him by egging him in the nicest possible way 1/2 doz best in a wee basket and an invite to talk ? hope things can be sorted i will talk to him |
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| Woodburner |
Well I got this bit right:
Not having heard from the EHO (or nasty neighbour) for many weeks I assumed he had given up, especially as our mutual friends had told him just how unpopular he was making himself. But no, I've just received another letter form the EHO saying that they heve recently carried out noise monitoring from the complainants home. That means that he did actually persist with the complaint! I shouldn't be so surprised, after all he started the official business after I had started muffling Nutty, so why would he drop it, when nothing had changed. Not that he can tell much at all at the distance he is anyway! The letter goes on to say that "the level of noise witnessed at the time of the visit did not constitute a Statutory Noise Nuisance", no surprise there, but it goes on to say that "the complainant informs me that they are satisfied with the current circumstances." So why on earth did he a) complain in the first place b) persist with the complaint?   
On reading the rest of the thread before posting this I read something that I had completely forgotten:
Well a couple of days ago, said person called round because two of the chooks had got out and were roaming free. OOPS I thought but actually he was more concerned about foxes! He wasn't bothered by the crowing and was more interested in what I was going to do with them (I think someone must have told him I was raising some for the table ), and also mentioned that he likes seeing them scratching around.
So Mr Nasty is either an outright liar, or at best (and I'm being really charitable here) is projecting his own feelings onto all and sundry. The latter is also borne out by his rather deluded idea that everyone would be happy if Nutty were silenced. |
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| Woodburner |
still complainingI presume it's the same guy as it's anonymous, my boys thought it was a xmas card but I knew it wasn't from the ordianry envelope, anyway this is what it says:To . . . . Cockrell[sic] woke our household at 5.50 am Saturday morning. Please can you do something about this early morning noise. Thankyou. No name or address but I would put money on it being from the same guy. Anonymity seems to be his thing.
I feel like sending him a note or maybe a card saying "No". Actually it's now cockerels but he's so far away he can barely hear them so I guess he can't tell the different crows apart. Also I don't think they did crow that early on Saturday but they were definitely up at 6 this morning because I could hear them and realised despite being more than half asleep, that it was still dark so something must be wrong, and woke up properly, and dashed out to investigate. Finding all secure and now quiet (typical ) I went back to bed. They did start crowing again after a few minutes but as I was sure they were safe I didn't bother going out again and fell asleep, with my window still open I might add.
I have phoned the EHO but they're a bit thin on the ground with the run up to christmas, and the chap that dealt with the case before has left. I could really use some advice as I am hopping mad. I knew from day one, when my son talked to him that he was out for a fight. "I've been here 8 years" anyway I have actually done what he asked (keep them in a coop in the morning) not because he asked though, but I have done it ('til 7 at least) and he's back complaing again despite the EHO saying there is no noise nuisance, too. I actually asked the EHO (before) how often is he allowed to complain after he's been told there is no grounds, but I didn't get a straight answer. /me is bashing her head against the wall. Edit:just in case anyone reads this again, it was just the one morning that this happened. |
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| Jonnyboy |
5.30 is well early for crowing at this time of year isn't it? Ours certainly don't kick off until after 7 at the mo' | ||||
| Woodburner |
Yes, that's why I was up like a shot the first time I heard them.
I have since found out from uncomplainng neighbours that it's not the first time but is a recent development. I think (and hope) that it's the youngest or rather the latest to develop a voice, that is waking up the others before it's light. Nutty, my main cockerel, had never crowed before it was at least getting light, til now, so I am hoping that when I cull the unwanted cockerels (2 off) things will settle down again. Thing is though that when the guy complained origianlly, it was light and they were actually crowing even earlier, and even with that the EHO said it was ok. I should probably add that I won't tolerate real night time crowing, (which is what this is) The young rooster has not only signed his death warrent but underlined it! Snotty neighbour never was one to wait though. Edit: Actually the uncomplaining neighbour (or rather, his wife) turned into a complainer the following summer. As mentioned in an edit to an earlier post the crowing in the dark was a one off. The conversation with him was very strange and I can only presume that the other early crowing that he referred to was actually the previous summer. |
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| woodsprite |
Ours were going off at 2.30 am last night. Fortunately our neighbours two fields away are country folk and keep stock themselves but I could have cheerfully wrung their necks.
The cockerels not the neighbours 
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| Woodburner |
Do you think something disturbed them? Or is it just a nasty habit? Two things are guaranteed to reduce a cockerel's lifespan around here, one is attacking me and the other is crowing before it's light.
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| Woodburner |
Here we go again.
He's just been around again, having heard from our mutual friend that I have cockerels that I need help with the despatching of, 'offering to help'. "Oh, do you know someone who could do it for me?" Says I "No, I can do it myself, with an air rifle." Says he "No way" says I "That's how (mutual friend's name) does it." "Yeah? Well still no anyway." Says I with eyebrows raised to indicate disbelief "Well we'll be going the council and solicitors route again this year then." "That's it, leave now." says I shutting the door. Mutual friend does NOT use a gun of any sort, he does the traditional neck 'wringing', when he really has to. I have been unable to bring myself to kill the two that need to go, but the crowing before light stopped long time ago. The previously mentioned incident was a one off, thank goodness, but it does mean that I didn't have the push I need to do the deed. But in any case, it's not any noise that has prompted him into action, just the fact that he found out that I have more than the original one cockerel. |
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| TheGrange |
Re: Exactly as I predicted . . . Round two
bahhh blo*dy townies
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| Chickem |
Hi just to let you know you are not alone in the nasty neighbours dept....
our neighbours moved in approx 3 years ago they've got about 10 noisy dogs & have disgusting bonfires at least once a week mostly when we have washing out, they don't speak to anybody,at first we thought that we'd upset them but it wasn't just us,say hello and they look through you...nice Anyway we first got our chickens (no Cockeral) last Aug.....We added to them in November so we had 11.... Then about a month ago the woman from next door shouted at me from an upstairs window(she didn't have the courtosey of comming round) " i've spoken to EH and they've told me to tell you your chickens stink" they are the most spoilt girls ever (mind you fab eggs!) well as it began to get a little heated i went in & just left her to her rant.... i phoned EH and had quite a friendly chat with them and i invited them to come and have a cup of tea and see my chooks.... they were quite happy that this was a neighbour dispute (?) and they didn't want to get involved. i haven't heard anymore from them and i've got one or two more chooks
mind you if she does complain again .....i'm keeping a diary of the bonfires & yapping dogs!!! |
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| Mutton |
Sorry to hear you are having trouble. I've heard that in NZ they have zoning - if you live near an airport, you sign a paper (I think it is for the council) to say that you understand that you will hear planes, if you go to live in the countryside, then you sign a paper to say you know cows moo and poo and so forth. And so you can't complain.
On a lighter note - Book I read a few years back, lady up in Yorkshire with a smallholding. Can't remember her name or book name. Anyway, she had a complaining neighbour, was worried about all of her stock (can't remember why now). One day she greeted them cheerfully, told them she was getting rid of her stock - they smiled broadly - and replacing them with hippos. That got them going nicely. |
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| Chickem |
i've toyed with the idea of borrowing various farm animals ....a different one daily just to confuse them!!!!!
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| TheGrange |
EH would be more likely to wonder how she disposes of her dog fowlings than over your chickens, after a certain number of dogs at anyone premises you have to have a licence as it becomes a kennels ... can't recall the finer details, but your council would, but i know as we used to have 8 Great danes, besides all this your girls produce healthy compost additives...where as dogs ... well |
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| Woodburner |
Chickem, you have my sympathies, too.
Beats me who they think they are, lying about what other people are supposed to have said. Another development, I don't think I mentioned before but the council said there were other complainants, I had my doubts that they were complaints about my chooks, but rather, mislogged calls to complain about the NN on my behalf. I did however have my suspicions that one might be genuine, but all the other possibles I had discounted, one has chickens herself and the other told me almost laughing that he had no problem at all with them. BUT shortly after NN called, the other chicken lady called suggesting I rehome them, and basically, she was one of the complainants, (and is 'considering' complaining again) and tells me someone who is too scared to say anything is lying to me. Well as all the others (as I mentioned before) knew me as a baby and growing up, but this guy (and she was nodding as I got to him, counting people of going down from my place) has broken planning regs, (he's built an outhouse in his garden) so has reason to be nervous. Not that I would have done anything, I'm a live and let live kind of person, and it looks a lot nicer than any shed! The one I have thought for a long time to be the real driving force behind the original NN is in even worse breach of planning regs, as he is using the old stable yard for non agricultural business purposes. He even has the cheek to use a stone cutting saw from time to time, (boy does that upset my cockerels!) and still complain about my cockerels! So, do I give them a taste of their own medecine and drop them in it with the appropriate authorities, or do I just let them beat themselves against a brick wall like last time? Maybe I should move to NZ
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| Chickem |
No don't move.....
it sounds like you've muffled the main problem you could ring the EHO for advice which would be a brownie point to you as it would show you are trying to be reasonable. or just ignore them i find it entertaining to get my children singing *ain't nobody here but us chickens","chick chick...Chicken" or "shake a tail feather" randomly every now and again just to p*** them off ....i don't know whether it does but then again i really don't care!!!!
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| Mutton |
Be careful about getting into a tit for tat reporting chain - it happened around here before my time and got very nasty - and expensive - it is still talked about. However, there might be some mileage in dropping hints - 'cos until you report, you have the power. Though if you do that, then you play into their "you are a scary person" stuff. Possibly worth doing with the people who are actually coming to your door - not in an "I'll get you way" but in a "look, I've tolerated it when you have done xxx which breaks the rules, EH have told me I'm not even breaking the rules, so couldn't you tolerate me? What goes round comes round."
On the plus side, your experiences last year say you are doing nothing wrong, so if you are able to relax about it you'll feel better (far more easily said than done). Hard to deal with, hard to ignore. On the subject of multiple cockerels - we've been a bit late killing surplus on two occasions and they fight - look like their faces have been in a blender - and they chase the hens ragged. None of the gentlemanly "here is some food my dear routine", just a leap and rape routine. |
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| Woodburner |
Chickem, the situation has changed since the muffling, it changed some time back but NN didn't realise until recently so had thought he was unable to complain again. Now that he knows there are more cockerels, and I won't let him shoot them, he is on the warpath again.
I fully intend to keep the EHO informed, I told them back in december when he posted the snotty note that there had been a change in circumstances, but that he probably couldn't tell as he was so far away, so I am already ahead of him there. How long has it taken him to notice a difference? 5 months? I can't see the EHO taking him too seriously. But the chicken lady is threatening to get them to monitor sound levels from her place as it is closer, and hardly any trees in between. B***h. lol just venting
EHO are decent arbiters, and very careful and diplomatic in their advice, I have no worries about letting them know what the situation is. They are more able to make the complainants see sense than I could. Edit: Not true any more, I don't trust this one, he is very one-sided. Mutton, yes you are right of course, on all counts, and very well put too. I already said to chicken lady that we are a live and let live bunch around here, but I don't think she got the message that she and the other complainants are the interlopers. They weren't here when I lived here before either as a child or with my own kids, so they think I am a newcomer and don't know what's what or who's who. With cockerels around, the chicken politics revolves around them rather than the hens. Nutty is the oldest and generally keeps the others in order, Pingu and Pinga are big and little brothers, and blue is the brash agressive teenager, who is always picking on the weak little Pinga. When I seperated Nutty, to get hatching eggs with him as father, Pingu taught blue a rather bloody lesson for attacking Pinga, so I had to seperate him too, for his own safety! Blue has been a lot quieter since then, but I daren't try putting those three back together without Nutty to keep them all in order. Meanwhile even with four hens to himself, Nutty is never satisfied and the three LS hens all have bare patches. I think they may have been better off with all four cockerels fighting over them!
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| vanessa |
I missed this before. Don't know how!
I don't understand why the "chicken lady" is complaining about your birds?!! Doesn't make sense at all to me. She has birds, she understands about the small amount of noise they make ... so what's her problem? Bizarre. So sorry you're having such problems. *hug* |
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| Frewen |
I particularly like the way Mutton phrased that face to face response - very reasonable and difficult to argue against
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| Chickem |
yes i agree your situation is considerably worse than ours and it's not a good idea provoking them. if you want to get rid of the excess cockereals you could offer them on freecycle.....or ask the mutal friend to dispatch them for the table. good luck!
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| Woodburner |
I don't understand either, she seems a bit phobic about cockerels tbh. I had completely counted her out as a possible complainant. But she and I did get off to a bad start, I first met her when I had just got Nutty, and he got out and got over her 6ft fence to get to her chooks, but then one of her dogs saw him off and he escaped to a garden on the main road, where I retrieved him. As I was taking him down the road she was talking to a neighbour, (first time I had ever seen her) anyway she told me that he'd been at her hens, and while I was concerned for her dog's safety she was simply adamant that I make sure he never gets anywhere near her hens again. I thought at the time, maybe she was so pro life she doesn't want to eat fertilised eggs, now I'm more convinced that she doesn't know about the birds and the bees.
I think 6ft fences say something about a person, too. Especially as this is a 'talk to your neighbour over the fence' kind of area. Of 15 gardens, hers is the only one with anything more opaque than timber bars, most have very open wire mesh. She knows I rehomed Nutty from someone who was getting harassed by neighbours, (she's all for rehoming actually she has ex-bats) she accepts that I want to keep the other pure breed as well, and understands that I don't really want to despatch birds that I hand raised, but she's a light sleeper and sleeps in the back bedroom, and guests can't sleep either, and even in the day they crow all the time every fifteen seconds.* :8
I told her that they only crow in the day time when something disturbs them, and they settle down again after a while to which she retorted, "Only for a minute and then they start up again. " If she thinks she can lie like that to me, about my own birds what is she going to try and convince the EHO of? *The fifteen seconds may well be true when they are crowing, but shows her attitude, she has already been timing them. Someone has officially complained, so I have thought out a cunning plan. lol I will explain more when I get notified of the official outcome, probably about 4 weeks from now. From previous conversations I know that our mutual friend doen't like necking birds, and he's only done sick birds before. I have managed to find someone to do the job, he's a very nice chap who's very pro chicken welfare, in a more realistic manner than "rehoming" so I was confident he could do it properly. He also said that rehoming cockerels was often a front for cock fighters, they use the birds as practice for their birds. Which is why I was unwilling to rehome them as chicken lady suggested. She didn't get it that I would rather see them humanely killed than risk that. I think she had stopped listneing by the time I got to mentioning cock fighting though.
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| vanessa |
How absolutely crazy.
Sorry you've had an official complaint now ... but at least this should see an end to the problems one way or another (hopefully in your favour). Good luck with the "cunning plan".
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| Chickem |
Poor you
Bloody people why can't they live & let live?
i look forward to hear more about the cunning plan! |
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| Woodburner |
Round two over?Round two is probably over. I'm still waiting to hear from the EHO, but NN has been leafletting again, so presumably the cockerels aren't loud enough even from Chicken Lady's house. Too bad (for him ) there isn't anyone else that sypathises with him.
Bleeping heck he's persistent though! He hasn't even received written confirmation yet (I presume we would both get letters at the same time) and he's trying to get someone else to complain! Curiously this 'leaflet' is the same as the original one, with a penned in alteration to the house number. Has he been told by the EHO not to send out more leaflets, so he's just sending out the previous one again? It's less libellous (sp?) than the second one, which is an even bigger load of BS. When I get the official confirmation I will dig it out and post it on here. |
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| vanessa |
Oh Lordy, poor you. Neighbours from hell ... you've sure got one of the worst! *hugs* | ||||
| spicycauldron |
It's a bit of a leap to see rehoming cockerels as a metaphor for sending them to cockfighting hell. Cockfighters want birds that were long used for centuries specifically for cockfighting. I can't imagine the dear sweet Buff Orpington cockerel I gave to some fellow Downsizers back in, when was it, January, ever having possibly been of any use to underground cockfighters. He's a working boy now but still, I'm told, a big softie although perhaps more robust than the guys originally thought (and seem impressed by!).
But then, the key if giving birds away is to trust your instincts, to make enquiries, to take personal recommendations. It wasn't easy letting that particular cockerel go, he was a pet before we knew he was a boy, and named, but I made sure I could be confident beforehand that he was going to a good life, and he did and does. He's having a riot of a time. And I'm going to go see him later this year when I collect a couple of his daughters, which will be lovely. Lots of people want cockerels, even with masses of them appearing in small ads in the poultry and smallholding magazines. Often I think those people aren't necessarily trying very hard, if they think it's just a matter of advertising in the backs of magazines. Finding homes for cockerels, especially when under pressure of time and in a race to get them rehomed before crowing takes off big time, is not easy. But it's not guaranteed impossible by any stretch. Why, just engaging with the staff at my local WCF feed supplier, they asked after the birds and I told them I was raising some and they told me they get enquiries from established known customers all the time about seeking cockerels, and would 'have no problem at all' pointing them in my direction. I hope it pans out, it might not of course, but at least it's there as a possibility - and it only came about from my being chatty and friendly. Plus I'm joining a new Poultry Society in my locality and that will undoubtedly provide more possibles for rehoming cockerels, through getting to know other keepers in my area, some of whom, no doubt, will have access to land I only dream of right now and will have the means and desire to take on more birds from someone they will, hopefully by then, have got to know as a conscientious keeper who will provide them with well-raised birds, hens OR cockerels. I am sure the guys who took our beloved Buff Orp cockerel would confirm, it's apparent the big yellow duster was well-loved and cared-for when they took him on. If you network, online and off, and have breeds people want for reasons that range from practical to showy to rare and popular, it is possible to find good homes for them. For example, if you raised araucanas you'd likely have less difficulty with cockerels than if you raised some bog-standard hybrids. Because araucanas are harder to source, and hugely popular, indeed fashionable right now. Fashion might be a dirty word for some, and for good reason, but it is what it is. That's just one example. Or, failing that, you can as a last resort hand cockerels you can't find homes for to trusted people who will take them and despatch them humanely for table. I'm not going to like the last resort if it comes to it, but at least I'd know (even as a vegetarian) that the birds were going to be treated in ways other than cruel. It's cruelty and intensive farming I take issue with, not people eating meat that is ethically raised and appreciated. Because I have a dear friend lined up, who has happily agreed to take them if need be, understanding it'd be my last resort, and knowing that I trust her as the kind person she is who knows what she's doing when it comes to the 'deed' and won't let any animal suffer - that makes all the difference to me. And of course, no birds we hatch will be named until we have pinpointed those we will be keeping, and they will get names and join our main flock. Names are powerful disincentives to getting rid of any bird without heart-break and real pain. It is possible, I believe, to be both sentimental (if, like me, that's your bent) AND practical dependent upon the situation and giving all matters relating to breeding some forethought and planning. Do I worry about the influx of cockerels we're likely to get soon? Of course. I'd rather they find good homes and don't like thinking some might end up on table. But if I want to enjoy chicks hatching and indulging broody hens in pursuing their natural inclination, then I have to find a way forward that works for me. Not decide on a path after the fact, which is just not what I call sensible when you know your own limitations and sentimentalities. And if it doesn't work for me - I think it will but hey - and I find this year traumatic, then I simply won't hatch eggs ever again. But I don't think that's the way things will play out. But always, always have backup plans and resolutions... |
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| Woodburner |
Unfortunately it's not that much of a leap, the birds aren't actually used for the fights that will have betting and spectators, they are used for practice, to hype the game cocks aggressiveness.
I did all the networking, it was that that tipped me off about the small ads being placed by cock fighters, and that random cockerels would be used for practice rather than the actual fights. Like you, I used to think "What use would tame odd bods be for cockfighting?" Incidentally, I know someone who regularly 'rehomes' buff orps from a breeder friend, who doesn't want them but can't kill them himself. Talking of instincts, I wouldn't trust your feed supplier's customers. Random coclerels are not hard to come by. If there's a constant demand for them you have to ask yourself what happened to the ones they had before. . . Sure it is possible sometimes to find a genuine good home; I rehomed Nutty with a solemn promise that he would live out his days as a stud bird. But finding a genuine, permanent, good and safe home for miscellaneous crosses, is nigh impossible.
Even that isn't all that easy but it's what I did in the end. I had to take them over 20 miles to be sure it would be humanely done. |
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| Woodburner |
Certainly, what he lacks in open abusiveness he makes up for with deviousness! |
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| Woodburner |
Meh! We're still on round two
I have no idea why he's campaigning again, the EHO phoned today to let me know they would be monitoring sound levels this week. :S He also asked if there had been any changes, I said no, he said that they said things had got better but had got worse again. I think I may actually have said "they're lieing again." Well they are! 
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| spicycauldron |
I'm lucky in that respect to have good friends I trust, but then we're all lucky to have friends we can have confidence in. |
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| spicycauldron |
Nobody can argue with monitored sound levels, I would imagine. But that in itself, if it comes out in your favour, wouldn't stop this devious, malicious blighter you describe. One wonders how long it can go on for - shouldn't the environmental people reach a point where they say enough is enough, and tell the complainant to quit it or face prosecution for persistent wasting of council time? An ASBO, maybe? Of course if the council repeatedly found no substance to the allegations you'd also have recourse to taking legal action for harassment yourself. And I'd imagine the council doesn't want to be seen, in light of no evidence time and again, as harassing you for the sake of one vindictive and resentful neighbour using them to get at you. |
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| Woodburner |
Unfortunately they can and do argue. It's happening here and it happened where I got Nutty from.
I, too, wonder how long it can go on for. Unfortunately and ironically, as long as the noise is too low to be an official nuisance, the complainants can't proceed any further and so get to keep their official anonymity, so there is very little I can actually prove against them. (The campaigning 'newsletters' are also anonymous.) If the noise is too loud then of course their harassment would be justified, so I still wouldn't be able to prosecute.
I think the original complainant is being very canny and getting other people to complain for him, so that he can't be had up for false complaints by the council either. However I think on that score he has probably just used up his last friends, all in one go, as three households were keeping diaries this time, and the most possible complainants we (the rest of my neighbours and me) can figure out is four, and one of those is a mile away.
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| Woodburner |
I think it should be all over . . . at least . . reading between the lines, I deduce that the sound levels are ok . . . but NNs are obviously not backing down.
I don't like this EHO. This is the second time he's tried to intimidate me by being economical with the truth. One more time, and I'll be making a complaint of my own. He's trying to play on my fears to make me do something more about the 'noise'. First was that rather strange 'tip off', and now he's not saying the sound test was ok, but he's going to come round to "see if there's anything more I can do to reduce the 'noise' " I had been intending to invite him round, but now I'm thinking I don't want yet another manipulative *cough* on my doorstep. He's made an appointment to come round early next week, but having had time to reflect on his attitude, I am seriously thinking of cancelling.
I could really do with some legal advice, but I can't really afford it.
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| pigeonpease |
Sadly I can't give legal advise, though reading this thread do you think it's game of bluff, a rather nasty one to me, maybe cancel your meeting or put it on hold as your seeking advise my, my, there are some really sad peeps out here wasting time and being general bar stewards.
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| Woodburner |
Yes, I do think he's bluffing. His devious methods of trying to get me to do something more are definitely nasty, but what makes it particularly upsetting is that he's supposed to be impartial but clearly isn't.
l had decided how I was going to tackle the meeting, (see my thread in Chat forum, 'What should I do with this information?') but the stress this last week has been much worse thanks to his attitude, so the fox attack today was pretty much the last straw. I haven't been this ill in almost two years, so I have no real choice but to cancel. If he doesn't change his tune, I'd be in floods, and in front of my elderly Mum too, I just can't take that risk, for her sake as well as my own. What do I say to him though? Up front and honest has got me nowhere, and the fact that I am single and Mum is a widow has not prevented even him from trying to pressurise me into doing more than is legally required, so I am disinclined to admit any further weakness. |
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| Woodburner |
Continues here |