Mrs Fiddlesticks
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parenting woesNot had to deal with this before! 
Eldest (aged 8 ) got in to a fight yesterday ( he didn't tell me on the grounds that he knew I'd tell him off, figures I guess) with a GIRL - good grief - who challenged him to one - double good grief. In the ensuing mele ( of which he was one of several) the poor girls thumb got broken, he sat on her. I've just been to the Head's office for a chat.
I'm horrified and mortified.
Son suitably upset thankfully and now understands that its a strong man that walks away - he's been put to the task of making her a Sorry card - but its me that feels so guilty and ashamed. 
Completely out of character for him, thankfully, but who'd be a parent, huh!
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leebu
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Feel bad for you... and for your son. My feeling on that was maybe the girl will learn not to go around challenging other children to fights!
I remember when a child at primary school being made a pariah in front of the whole school for fighting with a girl (one much bigger than me I might add). It still makes me mad to this day as when I asked the teacher what I should have done when she punched me in the face twice for no reason (really!), he said "take it like a man". Frankly, I thought I did... 
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jema
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It is oh so hard getting the balance. I am afraid I tell my kids the only way to stand up to bullies, is to hit them hard 
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sean
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| jema wrote: | | It is oh so hard getting the balance. I am afraid I tell my kids the only way to stand up to bullies, is to hit them hard |
But to quote Nigel Molesworth: " Poeple tell you, Stand up to bullies and they will run away, but some of them do not and then where are you. I will tell you, You are in the duckpond and it is jolly freezing.
Standing up to bullies is a good principle, but so is knowing when you can't win.
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jema
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| sean wrote: | | jema wrote: | | It is oh so hard getting the balance. I am afraid I tell my kids the only way to stand up to bullies, is to hit them hard |
But to quote Nigel Molesworth: " Poeple tell you, Stand up to bullies and they will run away, but some of them do not and then where are you. I will tell you, You are in the duckpond and it is jolly freezing.
Standing up to bullies is a good principle, but so is knowing when you can't win. |
Still think it is a pretty sound principle, sure there are exceptions, but I never found a bully who wanted to take it as well as dish it out.
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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He reasoned that he accepted the challenge on the grounds that he 'didn't want to look a wimp'
Its a hard thing being a kid these days when they worry so much about what the others think of them.
He didn't start the fight actually. She challenged, a mate of his pushed her, inviting mine to carry on, he took advantage and jumped on her back and as she fell her thumb was in the wrong place - ouch!
I suspect he thought he was doing the manly thing in standing up to the challenge of a fight, unfortunately it had disasterous consequences. Head was nice about it and knows he's 'not like that' and it seems they genuinely like him as a pupil. OH maintains the school computers so has just come back from sorting out elderly printer and Windows 95 combos and had a chat with head and son's teacher too as they were still in school. Son's teacher great bloke whom Russell would do anything for. This guy roars up to school on a vintage Harley and has made a class 2 sign featuring a bandana'd skull and cross bones! He is idolized!!
Hopefully things will calm down.
Russell is a whizz at Publisher so has just come down with a really nice card he's made for the girl.
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Andy B
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The kid did the right thing, he stood up for himself and a lot less people will think about pushing him around in future. The girl got hurt, well tough, she shouldnt have started it in the first place.
Sometimesyou have to let people know that you wont take any s**t, its just a shame it had to happen when he is only eight.
Go easy on him.
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cab
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It's a really tough one. Sometimes you have to be bigger and back off from a fight, other times you may be absolutely forced to stand up for yourself. It's hard enough to make those decisions as an adult, harder still as a child.
If the little'un is genuinely upset to have hurt the other kid, that's the best sign you can see here.
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jema
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It still has to be handled with a lot of care.
A thumb got broken which whilst accidental is not insignificant, responses need to be proportional.
There are also plenty of nasty little bullies who tell their doting and believing parents that it was the other guy started it.
An 8 year old could easily hear the wrong message in all of this and get the idea that pushing people around is a good thing.
Whilst not exactly suggesting he should be punished for simply standing up for himself, niether should the incident be ignored or praised.
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wellington womble
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The man who never made a mistake, never made anything. Presumably thhis also applies to 6 year old boys.
(sorry if I 've pinched someones signiture - I can't remember where I read it)
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Blue Peter
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FWIW, we have a rather different problem in a related area.
Our elder son (3.5) is very shy and very much of a loner. He suffers at nursery as kids, including much smaller ones than him, take toys off him. For him the problem is to be much more assertive. It's difficult knowing quite how to say to him, "Yes, it's okay for you to snatch toys off others and struggle to keep hold of things which you have," etc.
Apparently, he did get in a scrap (very mild, no doubt) a few months back with another child. Rather than stopping the altercation, the members of staff who saw it went to get the person in special charge of him so that she could see him doing it!
Peter.
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tahir
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Does he have a lot of interaction with other kids apart from nursery?
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Bernie66
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| Blue Peter wrote: |
Apparently, he did get in a scrap (very mild, no doubt) a few months back with another child. Rather than stopping the altercation, the members of staff who saw it went to get the person in special charge of him so that she could see him doing it!
Peter. |
Are we living in a completely crazy society?
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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| jema wrote: | It still has to be handled with a lot of care.
A thumb got broken which whilst accidental is not insignificant, responses need to be proportional.
There are also plenty of nasty little bullies who tell their doting and believing parents that it was the other guy started it.
An 8 year old could easily hear the wrong message in all of this and get the idea that pushing people around is a good thing.
Whilst not exactly suggesting he should be punished for simply standing up for himself, niether should the incident be ignored or praised. |
It is difficult to handle. I've pointed out that any fight is wrong ( he actually was expecting a 'play' fight in his words, whatever he thought that might mean I'm not sure) but I've said I understood that he probably felt he was put in an awkward situation, at 8 he cannot be expected to understand the wisdom of walking away especially when he was bullied last year ( by someone else) and now is keen to establish himself as a 'regular' guy. I identify exactly with you Blue Peter as I would say this is my 8 year old. He has allowed himself, if I can put it that way to be overly bothered about what people say or think about him and has known to play the 'victim' card and I have wondered about how to give him more confidence and assertiveness - although getting in to scraps wasn't quite what I had in mind. He is a quiet boy more in to computers that sport, and that unfortunately isn't 'cool' is it?
The actual fight was Monday, but he didn't tell me about it - the 1st I knew was me being asked to see the Head. That makes me feel terrible as the Head had asked me to do some PR work for her and I sent an e-mail yesterday about that and now that seems crass and insensitive as she must have wondered why I didn't comment on it - I have asked my son if possible to try and feel he can tell me about things that happen like this. I know he was expecting a telling off, and I've said I can't guarrentee he won't get one if he's done wrong, but it does help if I know before I get called to the Head's office!!
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Blue Peter
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| Bernie66 wrote: | | Blue Peter wrote: |
Apparently, he did get in a scrap (very mild, no doubt) a few months back with another child. Rather than stopping the altercation, the members of staff who saw it went to get the person in special charge of him so that she could see him doing it!
Peter. |
Are we living in a completely crazy society? |
I'm sure that there was no chance of harm. But for Ben, doing something like that is progress (unfortunately, it seems to have been a one off). It's getting the fine line between being too weak and being too strong. He is far too weak, and so for him it is good to stand up for himself, even if it did go too far (and I don't know that it did, I've only 2nd or 3rd hand reports). For others, it might have been stopped immediately because they need to be taught to be milder. So, I don't think that it was crazy, just trying to treat different children appropriately.
Peter.
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tawny owl
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| Bernie66 wrote: | | Are we living in a completely crazy society? |
Yep. Bet the staff members were too nervous to step in in case someone would accuse them of physical assault or child abuse. I read about a totally ridiculous case where some mother laid into nursery staff because they'd changed her kid's after he'd soiled himself, and from then on, the poor kid had to be left in wet/dirty clothes, on the mother's instruction, until she picked him up that evening.
Personally, I'd have told the mother her child was no longer welcome in the nursery, and then informed social services, as that is tantamount to child neglect at the very least.
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Blue Peter
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| tawny owl wrote: | | Bernie66 wrote: | | Are we living in a completely crazy society? |
Yep. Bet the staff members were too nervous to step in in case someone would accuse them of physical assault or child abuse. |
Not in this case (but perhaps generally  ) - see my answer above,
Peter.
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Andy B
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Most of life is about trying to find acceptable boundries for your behaviour. The problem is that everyone has different boundries, because of different influences. Its just not easy and how you can explain these things to a 3.5 or eight year old is really difficult, it takes time and you'll still be doing it when they're 20.
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tawny owl
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| Blue Peter wrote: | | Not in this case (but perhaps generally ) - see my answer above. |
Ah-ha. Complete confusion when I first read this, but then found said post, and realised we must have cross-posted.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply you would be like aforementioned pushy mother! just that a lot of people working with children these days seem to be very worried (and with good reason, sometimes) that someone (not even necessarily a parent) will decide they've overstepped the mark.
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Blue Peter
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Tawney,
No probs. Pushy parents are another problem to add into the mix
Peter.
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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| Blue Peter wrote: | Tawney,
No probs. Pushy parents are another problem to add into the mix
Peter. |
I'm not one of those, but actually I've a feeling in some instances you need to be these days!!
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leebu
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Like I said before I wouldn't be too hard on the lad. He's upset and you haven't been inundated with reports of him fighting/ bullying so really he stood up for himself and the consequences were far worse tha he could have imagined. That initself is a pretty sobering message. Similarly for the girl in this, hers was "be very careful what you wish for...because you might just get it"!
I think it is great to learn to turn the other cheek whenever possible. It is also not practical to dit all the time. Like it or not, just like in the work place, a playground can be full of bullies and they love a victim. Some kids will torment others for hours on end, without respite, if they think they can get away with it. How many of us would put up with that?
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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thanx Leebu. He had a good day at school today. He took homemade fudge on Monday and there had been clamours for the recipe so having typed it out himself he delivered that today which was popular. Cricket club went well, he didn't get bowled out. So I think he's ok. Will take me a while to get over it I think - I was quite shaken by it all.
Thanx to all you guys for your support - it really does help! 
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Andrea
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| Fiddlesticks Julie wrote: | | he actually was expecting a 'play' fight in his words, whatever he thought that might mean I'm not sure |
I'm having a real hard time trying to get my 5 year old to understand that fighting isn't glamorous or cool, and that people get hurt in real life. In my opinion, those damned Power Rangers have allot to answer for.
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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| Andrea wrote: | | Fiddlesticks Julie wrote: | | he actually was expecting a 'play' fight in his words, whatever he thought that might mean I'm not sure |
I'm having a real hard time trying to get my 5 year old to understand that fighting isn't glamorous or cool, and that people get hurt in real life. In my opinion, those damned Power Rangers have allot to answer for. |
Aint that the truth! Any cartoon thing they watch suspends real life and its consquences. I've had to point out to both boys in the past that impersonations of some of the antics of cartoon characters is not on. On the other hand you want them to have a good line in imaginary games - can't win! Who'd be a parent then... 
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Northern_Lad
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| Fiddlesticks Julie wrote: | | I've had to point out to both boys in the past that impersonations of some of the antics of cartoon characters is not on. |
I've not really got a problem with cartoon characters. I was brought up on Tom and Jerry, Roadrunner and the like and rarely felt the desire to phone up ACME.
What I do have a problem with is the likes of 'Power Rangers' which use 'actors' that are only a few years older than the target audience and then glamorises the violence, with no reference given to the moral decisions that should be made.
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jema
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| Northern_Lad wrote: | | Fiddlesticks Julie wrote: | | I've had to point out to both boys in the past that impersonations of some of the antics of cartoon characters is not on. |
I've not really got a problem with cartoon characters. I was brought up on Tom and Jerry, Roadrunner and the like and rarely felt the desire to phone up ACME.
What I do have a problem with is the likes of 'Power Rangers' which use 'actors' that are only a few years older than the target audience and then glamorises the violence, with no reference given to the moral decisions that should be made. |
it is a hard area, and I don't like being in the "Mary Whitehouse" camp on anything, but TV does have an influence, and you cannot disregard the difference between "Tom & Jerry" violence which was pretty unreal and the "Power Rangers" type stuff.
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