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gil

PFAF website - problems ?

I heard this morning that the Plants For A Future website is 'falling over', possibly due to funding running out.
It was suggested that a good thing to do while the site was still up and running would be to pay to download the database.

Anyone else heard owt about this ?
What d'you reckon about the d/base ?

I use the site, though not on a hugely frequent basis these days.
Others who are more into survival-type foraging might find it more of a loss.

www.pfaf.org
cab

Ain't opening up at the moment.

If this is true, if its really falling over, then its a massive loss.
OP

I think Tahir may have some info on this.
Treacodactyl

I've noticed it's not been working for a day or so, although you can still view the pages cached in google. I've got Ken Fern's "Plants for a Future" book that's very good although the site is very, very handy.

Anyone know about their funding issues, Tahir do you know anything?
tahir

I've got a paid for copy of the dB, haven't spoken to Rich for a while, last time I spoke to him he said he was trying to transfer everything to Wikipedia. Will email him, it's far too useful a website to die, I'm more than happy to help if it's a funding issue but I think he's just found it a hard slog.
tahir

Bugger, mail's bounced. Will try and find his phone number.
cassy

It would be a great loss. I have used the site at least weekly for the last 2 years.

Is there anything we can do to help?
cab

tahir wrote:
I'm more than happy to help if it's a funding issue


Its a resource I'd also be happy to contribute to. Too important to let it die.
tahir

This just highlights the fact that I really should do something with that blinking DB of mine. Just too busy, a bit strapped too, need to build a house....

Funny enough I'd been thinking about this last week and thought the best way to approach it was to have a wikified "PlantDB" that allowed species and cultivar entries.

I think as a commercial project it'd be around £25k. Orangepippin, what'd you think?

At that kind of figure I'd be happy to kick start funding/fund raising if there were others here that'd help. I'm guessing we'd need to create an ownership structure of some kind to ensure that it didn't belong to a single person.
OP

I saw the PFAF data structures some time ago courtesy of Tahir, so I could help with deciphering them. However I am less clear on what PFAF does because it is a while since I have looked at it. It sounds like we need some kind of outline of what the PFAF MkII should do - especially the collaborative wiki stuff. You can definitely count me "in" if I can help in anyway.
hedgehogpie

I've been trying to access it over the last few days for some research I've been doing & wondered why it had been offline intermittently. It's a very valuable resource & I'm frequently pointing people towards it, if it dissapears it will indeed be a massive loss.

Please keep us posted, if there's anything that can be done to help keep it online I'd like to contribute.
cab

tahir wrote:

I think as a commercial project it'd be around £25k.


You anticipate making a profit or staying afloat by selling access to the database?
OP

That is a good question - we probably need to put together a quick functional specification and also a business model.
tahir

Not for profit, but to do it properly it's going to need to be done as a proper commercial enterprise (development & maintenance) to keep it running properly.
vegplot

What format is the current database in?
tahir

mySQL. Just got hold of him, he didn't know it was offline, is looking into it. Says that he's too busy to maintain it and would be happy for somebody to start on MkII, with or without him (I told him we'd like to have him on board in some way). He agreed that a wikified approach would be the best way forward and is fully supportive of anything we might do.

I need to do some work, please carry on talking about this in my absence, TD & OP have both seen the data. I'm thinking of a not for profit org that owns, develops and maintains the site, funding by private donation and sponsorship. I know a few people that might "invest". I'd see develpoment and maintenance done in a commercial manner, i.e. tender, do job, maintain, rather than a collaborative programming effort by unpaid bods.
Treacodactyl

tahir wrote:
TD & OP have both seen the data.


I'd forgotten about that, IIRC the data was just a coma delimited flat files although it could easily be read from the PFAF database if PFAF are involved.

The biggest problem would I can see is deciding on what type of front end is required so it's easier to use without loosing some of the useful functionality such as listing plants by use. Probably need a Wiki guru.

I expect there's many other interested PFAF uses out there, I wonder how you get hold of them?
gil

Well, the chap I spoke to this morning certainly uses PFAF as an important resource. Dunno if he's got IT skills, though.

I've emailed him about this thread. Will let you know when he replies.
vegplot

We'd be willing to contribute to this project in some way such as hosting the site. However, we don't support MySQL or PHP which may not be of use.

Our pedigree is that we host the JNCC (www.jncc.gov.uk) and related web sites (IUCN, MESH, CHM etc.).
OP

I did a bit of work a while ago in importing the data into MS SQL2000. I will see if I can find it. As I recall, the PFAF structure is very simple and not particularly well normalised, there seemed to be lots of scope for improvement - not in anyway knocking it, just highlighting the potential.
tahir

I don't think platform is crucial, it's more the ability to develop a robust site within budget/timescale and support it on an ongoing basis.
vegplot

orangepippin wrote:
I did a bit of work a while ago in importing the data into MS SQL2000. I will see if I can find it. As I recall, the PFAF structure is very simple and not particularly well normalised, there seemed to be lots of scope for improvement - not in anyway knocking it, just highlighting the potential.


That would be a good start. I've not had any dealing with MySQL expect setting up db connectors. It's T-SQL based so it should be straight forward enough (famous last words).
tahir

VP & OP, you've both had dealings with govt, do you think this is something that might gain some kind of funding?
vegplot

tahir wrote:
VP & OP, you've both had dealings with govt, do you think this is something that might gain some kind of funding?


I've never dealt with them on that level but tere maybe people in JNCC I can call on who maybe able to advise. Would you like me to make further queries?
tahir

It'd be useful. For me the key things are that the site is wikiable, and there's a NFP org that controls it, I'm neutral on how it should be funded.
OP

I think it probably ticks quite a few boxes, but we need to find someone on the inside of Defra etc. Some kind of matched funding (which could be matched against time and/or £) is probably possible.
gil

What kind of level/area in DEFRA - I've got a mate who's a Senior Policy Advisor or summat, whose past briefs have included sustainability and 'whole farm' approach

What is it we'd want ?
tahir

I think we need to sdefine more tightly what we're talking about, my vision is this:

A site similar to PFAF but that builds on it significantly:

Searchable in many more ways
Images added
Wikified
Cutivar data to be added
To cover ALL types of plant.

This would allow a lot of other spinoffs, some possibly revenue generating.
LynneA

Used PFAF quite often last year - especially for the wild foods and permaculture/forest garden parts of the course.

Which leads me to wonder if there could be an agroforestry tie-in as well?
hedgehogpie

Much of the tecchie computer speak is wizzing over my head, but I like Tahir's proposal for development.

I really don't want to see pfaf sink, it's far too important and valuable a resource to let go without a fight.
tahir

LynneA wrote:
Which leads me to wonder if there could be an agroforestry tie-in as well?


That's kind of where we started, I was looking to create a website called the Agroforestry Network, Barefoot Boo did us a logo, we registered the domain etc. The basis of it and any other spinoffs has to be the species/cultivar db
mark

can any one send me a copy of the database. I would like to have a look to see what can be done...

maybe an open source project seeing as the data is creative commons?

maybe even potential for a joomla extension to access database
or just port the lot to a wiki

mark
tahir

mark wrote:
maybe an open source project seeing as the data is creative commons?


I haven't got the time to manage an open source project, I want to see development/management done commercially so that there's no pressure on a single person when other people disappear (as happened at PFAF). The project management team would be concerned with speccing the site and then the content side of things.

The files are around 20 Mb and I don't have an FTP site at the mo. Orangepippin might have.

When you say "port the lot to a wiki" what exactly do you mean? I'm talking about a site similar to PFAF but which would allow registered users to submit data, this would then be approved before publishing.
mark

tahir wrote:
mark wrote:
maybe an open source project seeing as the data is creative commons?


I haven't got the time to manage an open source project, I want to see development/management done commercially so that there's no pressure on a single person when other people disappear (as happened at PFAF). The project management team would be concerned with speccing the site and then the content side of things.

The files are around 20 Mb and I don't have an FTP site at the mo. Orangepippin might have.

When you say "port the lot to a wiki" what exactly do you mean? I'm talking about a site similar to PFAF but which would allow registered users to submit data, this would then be approved before publishing.


ok i see -was just going to have a look - i got some experience with mysql and database driven website sites and have some hosting space myself - and a brother and a son-in law and a son and a brother all who make this their main line of business.

so i just thought I'd take a look but no promises yet.

if the thing is to be done commercially there needs to be a source of funding/profit

and that doesn't necessarily make it more secure. In my experience commercial projects fold if the profit or funding dries up and the project can be out of the public domain by then. Open source projects are more easily "re-incarnated" and kicked off again.

Mark
tahir

mark wrote:
if the thing is to be done commercially there needs to be a source of funding/profit

and that doesn't necessarily make it more secure. In my experience commercial projects fold if the profit or funding dries up and the project can be out of the public domain by then. Open source projects are more easily "re-incarnated" and kicked off again.


In terms of security I'm thinking of a mangement structure like Downsizer, where a lot of people (20+ of us) are involved in running the site. They'd hopefully move be able to decide the best path forward in terms of funding, development etc. It's far too dangerous to allow a single person total control.

I think I could raise a substantial amount of the startup even without govt aid. OP and I had already discussed models of ongoing revenue generation for a similar (DEFRA) project we were involved in last year.
mark

tahir wrote:
mark wrote:
if the thing is to be done commercially there needs to be a source of funding/profit

and that doesn't necessarily make it more secure. In my experience commercial projects fold if the profit or funding dries up and the project can be out of the public domain by then. Open source projects are more easily "re-incarnated" and kicked off again.


In terms of security I'm thinking of a mangement structure like Downsizer, where a lot of people (20+ of us) are involved in running the site. They'd hopefully move be able to decide the best path forward in terms of funding, development etc. It's far too dangerous to allow a single person total control.

I think I could raise a substantial amount of the startup even without govt aid. OP and I had already discussed models of ongoing revenue generation for a similar (DEFRA) project we were involved in last year.


sounds more like it

mark
OP

The most important thing is to have a management plan and a set of requirements, we should not at this stage get bogged down in technical details.

I also think Tahir is right to stress the importance of it being "commercial". That does not necessarily mean it has to make money, but it does need to be self-sustaining, and able to generate enough funds to expand and enhance over the long-term. A lot of people are saying PFAF is a valuable resource ... yet look at the state it now seems to be in. That's not a failing of content or inspiration, it's a failure of resources. A more "commercial" approach should help sort that out.
mark

i think the license for the database is creative commons which means anyone can make and distribute a copy so long as they don't seek to own it - and they allow others to make copies in similar way.

The positive thing is that no one person or company can control or restrict it .

The negative bit is that does limit the "commercial" opportunities attached to it.

But maybe you mean something different by "commercial" to what i think you do?

mark
cassy

It's really heartening to see so many people concerned about this.

In the meantime, the US mirror is still accessible.
gil

Thanks cassy, that's really useful Very Happy
vegplot

mark wrote:
i think the license for the database is creative commons which means anyone can make and distribute a copy so long as they don't seek to own it - and they allow others to make copies in similar way.

The positive thing is that no one person or company can control or restrict it .

The negative bit is that does limit the "commercial" opportunities attached to it.

But maybe you mean something different by "commercial" to what i think you do?

mark


My interpreation is the site should be maintained by a commercial business paid to maintain and update the site rather than left to an individual on a volunteer basis. This would ensure the site is operational and functional throughtout the life of the contract in much the same way as any business web site. As opposed to commercialisation of the data contained within the site. I could be wrong.
mark

vegplot wrote:
mark wrote:
i think the license for the database is creative commons which means anyone can make and distribute a copy so long as they don't seek to own it - and they allow others to make copies in similar way.

The positive thing is that no one person or company can control or restrict it .

The negative bit is that does limit the "commercial" opportunities attached to it.

But maybe you mean something different by "commercial" to what i think you do?

mark


My interpreation is the site should be maintained by a commercial business paid to maintain and update the site rather than left to an individual on a volunteer basis. This would ensure the site is operational and functional throughtout the life of the contract in much the same way as any business web site. As opposed to commercialisation of the data contained within the site. I could be wrong.


oh i see
OP

Yes, that's how I would see it.
gil

vegplot wrote:
This would ensure the site is operational and functional throughtout the life of the contract in much the same way as any business web site. As opposed to commercialisation of the data contained within the site. I could be wrong.


What about after the contract ? No contract can be indefinite, can it ?
The data becomes vulnerable to being lost from the public domain again at that point, no ?
How might the income stream be generated to raise the funding to run the site ?
vegplot

gil wrote:
What about after the contract ? No contract can be indefinite, can it ?


As with any web site the data on it 'belongs' to the owner not the contractor. Web sites often change from one contractor to another for various reason inlcing the contractor going out of business but it doesn't stop the web site.

gil wrote:
The data becomes vulnerable to being lost from the public domain again at that point, no ?


It's unlikely the data would be lost unless the 'owner' failed to take steps to ensure it integrity.

gil wrote:
How might the income stream be generated to raise the funding to run the site ?


That's a question Tahir is currently trying to answer.
tahir

orangepippin wrote:
Yes, that's how I would see it.


Yup
tahir

vegplot wrote:
gil wrote:
How might the income stream be generated to raise the funding to run the site ?


That's a question Tahir is currently trying to answer.


I'm confident that we could raise sufficient funding to develop and maintain the site, with or without govt funding. Apart from the great PFAF db we can access huge amounts of cultivar data via Martin at ART, OP & I also have good links with a commercial nursery, so we should be able to access large amounts of data relatively cheaply. This means that we'll be fairly content rich from day one, much more for people to "buy in" to.

I see (apart from sponsorship and donations) revenue generation via:

Data licensing:
Clean, accurate data available to any nursery/seed supplier with a web presence, much chepaer than employing someone to input/maintain all that data

Affiliate schemes:
We could have a network of affiliates worldwide, click on a plant and you can see links to suppliers in your part of the world (depending on profile settings).

Originally I wanted to develop an orchard management system based on the DB, that and other opportunities could still appear.
Treacodactyl

I think care would need to be taken to also ensure it's initial aims are not swamped too much in extra data. The main thing I use PFAF for is for finding the uses of a plant or finding a list of plants for a use, the cultivar data, for example, would be useful some times but not that frequently. I assume there would be room for expanding the list of plants?
tahir

Treacodactyl wrote:
I think care would need to be taken to also ensure it's initial aims are not swamped too much in extra data. The main thing I use PFAF for is for finding the uses of a plant or finding a list of plants for a use, the cultivar data, for example, would be useful some times but not that frequently. I assume there would be room for expanding the list of plants?


The idea would be to keep the user interface as simple as possible but to allow for more advanced searches and additional data. It'd be similar to what we talked about a couple of years ago (AFN).

The initial "species view" would probably have the header info and a thumbnail, the rest of the data would be in expandable (click to expand) sections, cultivars would probably lead to another screen, searchable on a variety of attributes.
tahir

This looks interesting:

http://www.fmnh.helsinki.fi/english/botany/afe/publishing/database.htm
hedgehogpie

Oooh.

Another toy for my favourites collection. Cool
tahir

http://rbg-web2.rbge.org.uk/BSBI/taxonsearch.php
vegplot

Takes me back to the days when we wrote some code for the JNNC to plot taxon data in 10k squares.
tahir

Kew, searched on "lonicera"
hedgehogpie

Is there any news on what's happening?
tahir

With PFAF or PFAF Mk II?
hedgehogpie

Both Laughing

Downsizer seems to have stepped up with a rescue plan, but there are a lot of other communities out in webland who use pfaf & are very concerned about it too.

I'd like to be able to pass on info or point people here - especially if they can help in any way.
tahir

Point em here by all means, we need to agree a strategy and move forward. I believe what I've proposed should ensure a stable future for an enhanced product, but it needs to be more than just me. No idea on what's happening with PFAF, when I spoke to Rich he was unaware that the site was down and seemed to think it'd be an easy fix it to get it back online.
hedgehogpie

Hum. It does still appear to be offline (although the ibiblio one is acessible).

I'd love to see it back and running and also developed further, it's a piece of work that deserves to grow. Photographs are one thing I've always thought it lacked for example - it's one of those sites that has so much potential & I've liked your proposals so far.

I can help in any tecchie way but as a user I'd very much like to do something. I'll keep watching this thread and spreading the word around the communities I use.
tahir

I know, there's a huge community of users out there, £1 each from 25000 of them would give us our anticipated startup cost. Lets see what happens but I've been after doping this (or summat like it) for years.
hedgehogpie

So if I could rustle up a larger donation than a quid from myself and others it would have definite advantages. Laughing
tahir

Exactly. Just done a new post about this:

http://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?t=32807&highlight=
skedone

@tahir where in Essex are you mate thats my neck of the woods

also count me i will make a donation a bit larger than a quid lol

also if i can help in any other way let me know

also site seems to back up for me anyways
tahir

Excellent. Hope to start on the new version in Augustish.
Treacodactyl

Seems to be problems with them again at the moment for me, anyone else having problems with them?
tahir

I emailed him about it earlier
sean

It says it's exceeded its monthly data transfer figure or summat. I don't know, you build a website and then people insist on looking at it. Rolling Eyes
Treacodactyl

I do wonder how much they could earn if there was advertising, seems to get mentioned all over the place and always crops up in the first few links when I search for something new to grow.
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