Poor Charlie!

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OtleyLad	Poor Charlie! Our springer, Charlie is usually the life and soul of our house. But he's had a bad year. He's just gone 6yrs old (August 30th) but sometimes he's got the energy of a dog 3 times is age. He started getting really sore joints (or at least we think that’s what it was) after our walks. Usually he'd get between 1 and 2 miles a day. On a longer walk (say 4 miles) he'd be really tired and not be able to jump up on the settee the next day. This spring he got inflamed lymph nodes and 2 courses of anti-biotics didn't make any difference. Anti-inflammatories did and he was bouncing again after only 3 days! After the Anti-inflammatories finished he went down hill again. So he has been on them for a month and been absolutely fine (but his lymph nodes have still been swollen). But 5 days after stopping he's creeping about as if every movement hurts him. The vet (who is very good) did a lymph node biopsy but found nothing specific. He is reluctant to give steroids to reduce the inflammation, but we are running out of options. As this happened to anyone else's dog?
alison	I haven't, but just wanted to say, he is really beautiful. I really miss our spaniel
yummersetter	Have you tried a change of diet?
Tavascarow	Glucosamine.
welsh veg grower	Oh he is lovely we are spinny lovers here how sad he is not well. I second the diet thing worth a go try him on rice and chicken and plain things for a bit see if it helps maybe
Treacodactyl	Your vet should be able to advise and discuss joint care supplements. Our mutt is on Glyco-Flex II but as a preventative treatment as she's likely to develop joint problems in the future. We also take care how she exercises, control her weight as much as possible and don't over exercise her.
OtleyLad	Have you tried a change of diet?

Thing is he's always been a reluctant eater. Food is like something embarassing he has to do, but would rather not.

We can leave our half-finished plates of food on the floor in the living room and he wouldn't dream of going near it. (That just shows what kind of plebs we are).

He will eat Butchers Supreme, and not much else - even then he stops and comes back to it later.

It wouldn't be much good to temporarily change his diet I imagine - if that is the cause of his problems then it would have to be permanent. If it was to be home cooked chicken I'd be up against it with not wanting to buy battery raised stuff.

He's been under weight all his life and has dropped lately (he should be about 25kg and he's about 23.

This past week he's not had a lot of exercise either as my car is off the road - just a short walk twice a day on the disused railway line ath te back of the house.

I will ask the vet about supplements though - I am going to take him tomorrow.

leggy

Have you tried feeding him raw meat an bones?
Most butchers give it away and dogs soon put weight on.
If the dogs loosing weight and looking depressed/bored I would be starting to get concerned.

three ravens

have pm'd you

bio

minced tripe tempts my fussy dog, double wrap it and it will keep ok in the fridge for a day or two without being smelly. try a bioflow collar for his aches and pains, they used to have a money back guarantee so nothing to lose but check first as they may have changed that offer.

Gai

I can symphasise so much with what you're going through. Our Geri is 8 years old and has gone from an energetic, enthusiastic, bouncy, typical springer to an absolute ghost of a dog over the summer. She has lost interest in life, outdoors, walks, trips in the jeep, food, water, everything. Her medical symptoms are numerous and wide ranging and get added to every week. Our vet is wonderful but most investigations are taking place at a clinic in Belfast at the moment. We've been through bloods, cardiac, x-rays and are about to move towards neurological next week. I spent last night and most of today walking around after her cleaning up the puddles of bile she was vomiting and was actually grateful when the vet offered to keep her in tonight. Sorry to ramble on so much but I just had to off load a bit. Your springer is a lovely looking boy.

OtleyLad

How is your Geri? OtleyLad

We didn't really have chance to change his diet as he keeps getting one thing after another. First he got loads of scabs over his back - cleared up be anti-biotic pills and shampoo, then his joints went again.
Following a month of anti-inflammatory drugs (during which he really picked up, put on weight and generally go back to his old self) Charlie has gone back down hill again.
He's rapidly losing weight again but now his testicles have swollen to twice their size. It's getting to the state where he is having to sit down very carefully.
The vet reckons he will have to be castrated, just in case there is cancer, but I know that's not something to be taken lightly for an older boy - we know two friends whose dogs were castrated and it really messed them up (depression, incontinence, etc). I can identify with the lad too - who wants their balls chopped off?
We are trying to get a 2nd opinion as our vet (who until recently we had a lot of faith in) seems to be losing interest. dpack

sorry the chap aint well .

the only things i can suggest is raw food .meat 7,veg 2 ,bone 1

magic splosh for the skin after bathing to clean any "goo"

it isnt easy to contemplate but sometimes the cure is worse than the final solution for multifaceted illness

anti inflams have done some good so might be worth another try for the orthopedic probs but joint probs are controlled rather than cured

big hug to him and you Hairyloon

Glucosamine.
Yes, and that other stuff, chondri-something. Often comes in the same pill.
Our vet said you can't have too much of it.
I think we found Lidl were cheapest. Cathryn

Perhaps you could ask the pedigree organisation to see if they recognise it?

I have just learnt that springers can be old at eight. I didn't realise but they do tend to live life at top speed.

We are going to talk to the people we got him from to see if his siblings have any similar problems.
As I mentioned before his grandmother lived to 19 (she still looked good at 17 when we last saw her) - so we were hoping for another 10 years with him - but only as long as he's relatively fit and happy of course.

Seeing a 2nd vet later this pm - hope they have some ideas (and to save his b***s). Nell Merionwen

Nothing helpful to add really, just a big hug for Charlie xxxx sueshells

Going back to the castration issue - I wouldn't worry too much. I had my dog done at 7 years old - nearly 8 - and he was a much happier boy after that. Easier to control and less fidgety! Not quieter though, which was a nuisance.

Best of luck with him - I can imagine that springers could "live fast, die young" (like hamsters, in fact) but very much hope that this won't be the case for yours. Gai

We had our beautiful Geri put to sleep on the 13th of November and still can't believe that she's gone. After a week of intensive tests in Belfast at the end of October she was finally diagnosed with an intrahepatic portosystemic shunt which had caused hepatic encephalopathy. In plain English she had a rare genetic disorder of the blood supply within her liver. It's thought her system coped with it for 8 years (fairly unheard of) but finally gave up. When the blood supply in the liver stopped working properly her liver began to die off very quickly and it no longer processed the toxins etc from food or medications. This caused encephalopathy which is similar to dementia in her brain. There was no hope of treatment or survival. We brought her home and spent a last couple of weeks with her but her spirit was already gone. We are absolutely devastated, since she became part of our family at the age of 8 weeks we rarely had a day or night apart. There is however a lot of relief that she is no longer suffering, mixed with a ton of guilt that we should have noticed something sooner although the vet says not. I was just thinking about your Charlie the other day and hoping that things had improved for him. Sending him and you healing wishes. OtleyLad

Thanks to you all for your kind wishes - what a thoughtful lot you are thanks

Well I got to the vets in Bradford and was there over 2 hours. He was much more proactive than the previous man, gave him a CT scan and diagnosed something that I can't pronounce or remember. Said he had known of 4 cases in the last 20 years (and its a big practice with over a dozen vets).
He has almost ruled out castration (phew!) as the CT scan showed the swelling was not inside the testicles. Apparently his lymph nodes are inflamed all over his body. He gave Charlie an injection of antibiotics to help reduce the swelling and as taken more blood to look for a tick-related virus that might have triggered the whole episode.
So I'm to take Charlie back to the vets this afternoon to see if he's responded to the treatments. He looks even more battered now, with a shaved belly from the CT scan. But he just wanted hugs between sleeping all evening (he's still asleep now). 12Bore

Good to read the last post, all the very best to Charlie, and his family. alison

glad vet has an idea of the problem ,hope charlie recovers lassemista

Though Charlie's situation has moved on, can I recommend that anyone with possible diet-related problems in dogs speaks to CSJ
http://www.csjk9.com/
I feed all mine on their food and distribute it in a small way. I have heard of so many people being helped by their advice.
I had an old boy who was getting a bit stiff and used Chondromax from Healthspan, to good effect.
Good luck,
Andrea. OtleyLad

Monday and we've gone back to the vet for a check-up. The boy is doing fine Smile

His testicles are going down, his temp back to normal and mot of his lymph nodes are no longer swollen.
He will have to stay on anti-biotics for another month at least and we await the results of a test for (something that can be passed on by tics Bartonella).
For now he's got his bounce (and appetite) back, fingers crossed he'll continue to improve.
An extra bonus was that the 2nd vet was happy to state that the illnesses over the last 6 months are all related - so we can claim back the excess that we paid for each separate diagnosis. Cathryn

Very pleased to hear this. Smile

Gai

Great news Very Happy

sueshells

Delighted to hear that Charlie has perked up - thank goodness for a decent vet. Hope that he continues to be fit and well (Charlie - not the vet, although I hope the vet stays healthy too). 12Bore

Great news! Very Happy

OtleyLad

Well the saga continues. Poor Charlie did perk up temporaily but he's still been up and down. We did sort of wean him off the anti-imflamatories but he's had several bouts of exhaustion, his lymph nodes are still as big as sprouts and still gets knackered after a moderate walk.
A friend of ours recommended we see a homeopathic vet. We were both skeptical but persuaded our vet to refer him. This new vet spent an hour (£160 per hour fee) with Charlie getting a complete picture of his health over the years.
He asked us where we have taken Charlie. We mentioned walking holidays in Wales, the Lakes and Scotland. Vet asks, 'Did he pick up ticks?' Yes. Vet asks if he'd ever been tested for Lyme Disease? Well no.
So he has a blood test and lo and behold he's been exposed to it!
Symptoms:
Joint inflammation (polyarthritis).
Lameness or limping
Loss of Appetite
Enlargement of the lymph nodes
Lethargy
Depression

This is Charlie's life!
Is this a Eureka moment? We don't know yet - but he's now on anti-biotics specifically targeted against Lyme.

Thing is, this is after over £3,000 of treatments by the two previous vets - neither of them asked about Lyme disease. But still we hope this is the end of his tribulations.
Through it all Charlie has been the same loving, cuddly, smelly dog - so we can't grumble too much.

By the way we also started him off on a raw food diet about 5 weeks ago. He's much more enthusiastic about his food now and even empties his food bowl at one go (don't look in our fridge though).
Who'd have thought he would enjoy grated raw parsnip, carrots, courgettes, etc (with raw meat as well). jamanda

We've had an instance of a local woman who similarly took a long time to get a diagnosis for Lyme and has been very ill. I've been doing a a bit of awareness raising around town with posters and the Commons website & FB page.

I couldn't find much about dogs when I went hunting for info, other than yes they get it the same as humans - horses and other mammals too! Treacodactyl

Ticks are also found in high numbers on the Yorkshire moors (NHS details).

There's some info about dogs on the BASC site: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/how-to/gundogs/a-time-bomb-thats-ticking--dealing-with-ticks.cfm

If dogs are treated in a similar way to humans I think they need to be on the anti-biotics for a long time (6 weeks) but this does not always happen. (Worth investigating yourself in case the vet doesn't know). There is a fair bit of info about Lyme disease in dogs from the US which I think mostly applies to the UK. Cathryn

Thank you for this information. I will be more violent with the spot on on our dogs. Hope your spaniel recovers soon. Jam Lady

Have myself had Lyme disease three times. If you live in rural / semi-rural areas of the Northeastern United States it pays to be paranoid about this. Detected early enough, doxycycline clears it up quickly.

Problem is the disease is carried by deer ticks even in their first year nymph stage. And even the adults are about the size of a head of a pin. No idea how you would find them on any dog other than a Mexican hairless. The much larger dog ticks are not a vector.

Lyme disease is a spirochete. The only other spirochete disease I am aware of is syphilis. And as I recall from my college parasitology class, once someone has syphilis, even after you are cured you will test positive. Don't know about Lyme, as my doctor said she didn't know.

There used to be a vaccine for both dogs and humans, that gave an 80% protective rate. My husband and I both had the initial series and follow-up yearly booster. It was then discovered that some (few) people got a rheumatoid arthritis type reaction to the vaccine so it was pulled off the market for people. Too sensible, I suppose, to develop a test for sensitivity so the rest of us could continue to receive it.

I'm glad your dog is doing so much better, and that you didn't pick up the infection too. OtleyLad

Well he's in the wars again Crying or Very sad

Made really good progress with his general health, he's so much livelier, alert and his coat has that healthy sheen he had several years ago. I suspect a lot is down to his raw food diet.
But we noticed last week that his balls have swollen again. Took him to the vet tonight and he's pretty sure there're some cancerous lumps there. So he's going in on Friday to have his crown jewels removed. Ye gods it makes me cross my legs in sympathy.
Poor little dog he has gone through it.

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