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Cathryn

Raspberry pi

Has anyone on here actually bought one for a child? If so can you answer some length of string questions? How successful was it? How much parental input was needed, how much basic it knowledge was needed by said parent? How quickly can a child pick it up and get on with it more or less on their own? I am wondering if it would make a good present for my very bright nephew but I don't want it to be an extra burden on his ever so slightly frazzled parents.
chez

Jema very kindly gave Leo one; he and Arvo are entranced by it. I will bring the thread to his attention Smile.
Cathryn

Ah Leo has an Arvo. I'm wondering if a few days with the best Aunt in the world (with easy access to downsized IT bods) would get him going.
wellington womble

No idea what a raspberry pi is, but Jenna can work an ipad, and has been able to for a couple of years. I think basic it is a lot more initiative than it used to be. Thank goodness she can't spell yet!
jamanda

A raspberry pi is all about learning to code. A car mechanic rather than a driver.
vegplot

Jamanda has it in a nutshell. It is a very low cost computer designed to help teach programming and peripheral integration.

Quote:
We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn how computers work, how to manipulate the electronic world around them, and how to program.
arvo

As long as you get all the right cables to connect it then its not to scary. Also there are lots of useful tutorials on the RasperryPi site. Here: http://www.raspberrypi.org/help/

Worth buying a 'Noobs' card to go with it. (SD card, pre-loaded with all the programs you'll need) It really helps get you going.

Good luck. Always up for questions about it. We've had fun so far and have more planned Smile
Cathryn

Thank you. I think the nephews would go for this, I'd better speak to my sister first.
wellington womble

I consider myself educated!
Barefoot Andrew

A child interested in computing and learning to code should have little trouble in getting to grips with the Pi, although this won't happen overnight and may need the odd spot of help from folks in the know - even basic coding has some dry, abstract concepts to grasp. However, I managed aged 13, and I've successfully taught coding to kids younger than that.

The problem would come from foisting the device on a child more interested in using the tech (Xbox, smart phone, laptop) than coding for it or learning how it works. The dry concepts could be a barrier, as could any abstract idea in any maths or technically orientated subject at school.

So if your nephew is up for it, I'd say go for it.

And there'll be plenty of help amongst us lot.

I don't have a Pi myself, but I entirely support what they're trying to achieve.

A.
Cathryn

Thanks Andrew, he has an (alarmingly) enquiring mind. I don't think it's been considered because my sister and brother in law are not at all interested. I note your bit about foisting it on him though. I am looking for something that he will become absorbed in and give his parents perhaps one night a week where they aren't taking him swimming or to music lessons or running or football or tennis or or or
Barefoot Andrew

Keep us postimacated!
A.
chez

Leo uses it to code in Scratch. Very high-reward environment, animations etc..
Treacodactyl

Raspberry Pi 2 looks interesting, it can even run Windows 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31088908

http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/
vegplot

Raspberry Pi 2 looks interesting, it can even run Windows 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31088908

http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/


That will make it much more attractive to a larger community. Never a bad thing.
jema

This is what I wish it had been all along, brilliant as the original was, the cpu and memory was suitable for applications from ten years or more ago.
That was just too great a gulf to bridge really Sad
Memory in particular just did not get close to what was needed.
1gb on the other hand is a serious amount to use.
oldish chris

This is what I wish it had been all along, brilliant as the original was, the cpu and memory was suitable for applications from ten years or more ago.
That was just too great a gulf to bridge really Sad
Memory in particular just did not get close to what was needed.
1gb on the other hand is a serious amount to use.
Doesn't this just make it a dead cheap PC? I thought that it was an entry into robotics. Suddenly, no more clever than when I cobbled together a tower system with bits recovered from another one plus some discarded peripherals. But way less clever than the first microcomputer I used, which we programmed an Assembler to emulate a particular mainframe communication protocol. The printer socket was re-purposed to connect to a string of ten remote terminals. jema

Well it hasn't lost anything, in fact it has gained more hardware pins. oldish chris

Well it hasn't lost anything, in fact it has gained more hardware pins. You're right. What informs my prejudices is noticing that a lot of "IT Skills" are in fact, lessons in how to use Microsoft products, skirting round design methodologies. They think that being able to cobble together a few tables using Access and then telling us how its done using a Powerpoint presentation is the acme of computing. With the Pi you get, at the top level, experience of more than one OS, and when you get coding in a real programming language, you actually get to know how a computer works. vegplot

Well it hasn't lost anything, in fact it has gained more hardware pins. You're right. What informs my prejudices is noticing that a lot of "IT Skills" are in fact, lessons in how to use Microsoft products, skirting round design methodologies. They think that being able to cobble together a few tables using Access and then telling us how its done using a Powerpoint presentation is the acme of computing. With the Pi you get, at the top level, experience of more than one OS, and when you get coding in a real programming language, you actually get to know how a computer works.

There are so many layers to IT skills from the very cursory 'how to use this computer to do what you want ' to low level peripheral I/O programming in assembler. One does not trump the other. They are all skills and to be actively encouraged.

Go on treat yourself.
oldish chris

Go on treat yourself. That looks fun, although these days I tend to avoid learning technical stuff (I know it shows). I'm very happy with Linux, 'cos I come from the era when Unix was the usual operating system. Doesn't make me an expert, its just that I don't get phased/frustrated with the architecture and command line. jema

A lot of IT teaching is the height of absurdity, I recall Amipest being told off at school for entering HTML rather than let a HTML editor do it Rolling Eyes

As such I quite liked the idea of a lower specced cheap machine encouraging people to get back to getting down and dirty with things.

But sadly this is not the 1980's where you did build from scratch, the wealth of Linux bits and bobs are there to play with and the basic raspberry pi wasn't really capable of playing.
oldish chris

I recall Amipest being told off at school for entering HTML rather than let a HTML editor do it Rolling Eyes I'm stunned, seriously, I'm stunned. In my case the headmaster would have got a stonking letter two days later!

One year I actually sat on the academic standards board for a nearby university, (I was the only bloke the Principal lecturer knew who was familiar with the design methods being taught and worked for a FTSE 100 company Laughing ) that would have been given a prominent position in the letterified rant.
tahir

A lot of IT teaching is the height of absurdity

I'm constantly amazed at my kids lack of IT skills despite having "ICT" since the age of 5.
vegplot

A lot of IT teaching is the height of absurdity, I recall Amipest being told off at school for entering HTML rather than let a HTML editor do it Rolling Eyes

I would assume that by then she knew more than the teacher.
oldish chris

A lot of IT teaching is the height of absurdity, I recall Amipest being told off at school for entering HTML rather than let a HTML editor do it Rolling Eyes

I would assume that by then she knew more than the teacher. Which surely makes it even worse? Just checked with web designing son, if a school pupil were to ask him how to create a website, he'd say "Get a book on HTML!". BTW he always works in "Code View". vegplot

A lot of IT teaching is the height of absurdity, I recall Amipest being told off at school for entering HTML rather than let a HTML editor do it Rolling Eyes

I would assume that by then she knew more than the teacher. Which surely makes it even worse? Just checked with web designing son, if a school pupil were to ask him how to create a website, he'd say "Get a book on HTML!". BTW he always works in "Code View".

This is the way I build websites.

oldish chris

I see, interesting. A little while back the word on every politician's lips was "Coding".

I wasn't quite sure what "Coding" meant, so I assumed that they didn't have much of a clue. (To me, it is the penultimate stage of writing a program - followed by testing.)

However, at the high level, there is "structure", lower down "logic", both of which (to me) are clearly visible in Vegplot's snapshot.

Getting some sort of a computer and just coding, might be a taster, but quite a few hours of theory are needed. Faffing about with a code generator (IMHO) isn't going to do it.

That's why I dismiss a Windows 10 version of the Raspberry Pi. (Unless the Pi version comes with a couple of programming languages and a decent text editor.) It's a cheap way of getting on Facebook. (Said the cynic Wink )
vegplot

That's why I dismiss a Windows 10 version of the Raspberry Pi. (Unless the Pi version comes with a couple of programming languages and a decent text editor.) It's a cheap way of getting on Facebook. (Said the cynic Wink )

and it is that as well. It also opens a whole range of opportunities for programmers and code creatives. What you see in the snapshot is a website. It's a highly evolved one in that uses the MVC model (ASP.NET MVC to be precise which is open source) using a Visual Studio 2103 Community Editions (which is free) running on IIS Express (again free) on Windows 8.1 (which isn't). However Windows 10 for PI will be free (so I believe).

With this same IDE I could also develop SQL systems, console applications, cloud apps, mobile apps, using VB, C#, F#, JavaScript, TypeScript, PHP, and Python should I chose.

I think that's reasonably decent if only a subset is made available and I haven't even mentioned .NET Micro for resource-constrained devices with at least 256 KBytes of flash and 64 KBytes of RAM.
dpack

i got left behind at the hex stage and have never caught up Laughing

i did write bbc basic to run an auto sample glc and auto titration kit but as far as coding goes i would be lost with modern stuff

i might manage to write a protocol for a simple system but even simple modern stuff is too complex to get into details afaic

im hoping that the pi will be the tool to teach the folk who do the next stuff

a generation of kids who can polish a box we sold you seems a bit wasteful
Jb

Raspberry Pi 2 looks interesting, it can even run Windows 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31088908

http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/

That will make it much more attractive to a larger community. Never a bad thing.

That's a very bad idea. As soon as you put windows on to a machine there is so much overhead and abstraction between the interface and the hardware that it makes the machine inefficient and an appalling tool for accessing that hardware. That's great if all you want to do is run a wordprocessor and play a couple of games. It's appalling if you want to actually understand what's going on and make it do what you want.

Raspberry pi is a torque wrench, windows is an motorised torque wrench with digital readout and inbuilt help file. Very clever but completely useless if you want to know what a wrench does and pretty damned close to useless if all you want to do is tighten a wheel nut.
vegplot

Raspberry Pi 2 looks interesting, it can even run Windows 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31088908

http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/

That will make it much more attractive to a larger community. Never a bad thing.

That's a very bad idea. As soon as you put windows on to a machine there is so much overhead and abstraction between the interface and the hardware that it makes the machine inefficient and an appalling tool for accessing that hardware. That's great if all you want to do is run a wordprocessor and play a couple of games. It's appalling if you want to actually understand what's going on and make it do what you want.

Raspberry pi is a torque wrench, windows is an motorised torque wrench with digital readout and inbuilt help file. Very clever but completely useless if you want to know what a wrench does and pretty damned close to useless if all you want to do is tighten a wheel nut.

Bad? I suggest before you look at http://dev.windows.com/en-us/featured/Windows-Developer-Program-for-IoT and see what putting Windows 10 on small devices really means.
Jb

Unless I've missed something there none of their examples actually use any windows functionality. There's a lot of basic microcontroller code all of which seems to be in simple C / C++ code but apart from the banner "windows 10 now on raspberry pi" there doesn't seem to be any mention of windows actually being used. On following that top link all it says is "we are delivering windows 10 support for raspberry pi" but no details vegplot

Unless I've missed something there none of their examples actually use any windows functionality. There's a lot of basic microcontroller code all of which seems to be in simple C / C++ code but apart from the banner "windows 10 now on raspberry pi" there doesn't seem to be any mention of windows actually being used. On following that top link all it says is "we are delivering windows 10 support for raspberry pi" but no details

For a start it means you can develop in Windows 10 directly on the device you want to control rather than on a separate device. How this pans out remains to be seen.

Sure if people just want to use Facebook on it then that's fine as well, why stop them?

But I think you miss the point in having a high level system on a small cheap device. It opens another world of possibilities. I have trouble seeing your objection as the Pi is already capable of running a Linux GUI OS, albeit slowly, which has the same level of abstraction as Windows does. Or this is just anti-Microsoft rhetoric?
Jb

Raspberry pi runs a linux gui in most out of the box implementations so you can develop on the device you want to control rather than on a separate device, and has done from day one. Windows does not contribute anything to solving that problem mainly because the problem doesn't exist. Having developed that solution, as raspberry pi is aimed at being a low level platform you can then turn off everything and be left with a stripped down guiless OS running just your code, that's possible under windows but a lot harder because it's not the way windows is designed to work. So is there any advantage to running windows?, well as none of the examples that microsoft have on their site use any windows functionality it would seem that microsoft's opinion on the matter is that it doesn't. Windows is a perfectly adequate environment for running user applications but a raspberry pi is the wrong tool for user apps and windows is the wrong tool for what raspberry pi does and does well. vegplot

You've not said anything that demonstrates it's a bad thing. You can't find any good in it, which I disagree with, but where's the bad? tahir

where's the bad?

Yup. As far as I know this is part of MS's attempt at being a major player in the "Internet of Things", it could be as succesful as NT embedded in which case we'll never hear of it again, BUT if they manage to get a lot of users developing in the product then it could well be the best thing they ever did.

It looks like they want Win10 to be taken up by everybody, everywhere, across multiple architectures. Could well happen
Jb

Raspberry pi is a cheap low level platform providing easy access to IO, networking, usb etc.
Windows is a high level platform which restricts access to IO, networking, usb etc by putting it behind an abstracted layer which hides those details.

Windows is not a bad thing, linux is not a bad thing. Windows is the wrong tool to use for most purposes on raspberry.
tahir

Here's an article about it:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry_pi_2_eben_upton_interview/
oldish chris

But I think you miss the point in having a high level system on a small cheap device. It opens another world of possibilities. I have trouble seeing your objection as the Pi is already capable of running a Linux GUI OS, albeit slowly, which has the same level of abstraction as Windows does. Or this is just anti-Microsoft rhetoric? Be interesting to see what comes in the Windows 10 software package and how it actually performs, and after you've gone for the loss-leader, then what? I just don't trust marketing departments, especially of a company that is bigger than Tesco.

As for the anti-Microsoft rhetoric, you'd be surprised how different some things look on a Linux screen, if you catch my drift.
vegplot

Be interesting to see what comes in the Windows 10 software package and how it actually performs, and after you've gone for the loss-leader, then what? I just don't trust marketing departments, especially of a company that is bigger than Tesco.

Microsoft want to leverage the investment they've made in cloud services (Azure) and to do that effectively they need to develop a large developer and user community. They're no longer as precious about platform domination (their support for Linux on Azure is excellent) as they once were but naturally want Windows or .NET to run as a far as possible.

You might find it hard to believe but they're not money grubbers looking to unethically find ways of making dollars. They want to make money like we all do but their ethos and ethics are very different to the 1990 and 2000's. I think they'll do it as they have the right attitude but will struggle to shake off their poor reputation from the last couple of decades.
oldish chris

They want to make money like we all do but their ethos and ethics are very different to the 1990 and 2000's. I think they'll do it as they have the right attitude but will struggle to shake off their poor reputation from the last couple of decades. and some have ethics thrust upon them: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/01/us-usa-budget-tax-idUSKBN0L51IX20150201

I shall wait and see. I've been wrong before.
Nick

Someone write that down. He'll deny saying it later. oldish chris

Someone write that down. He'll deny saying it later. leave off Nick, I then admit to being wrong twice - when I said I was wrong, I'd made a mistake! Wink jema

I wouldn't make bets against Microsoft reinventing itself. Hairyloon

Meanwhile, back on topic, I've just been given a Pi...
Is not high on my priority list and I've not yet found all the bits and bobs needed to make it work, but...
In the mean time, I know there are no end of online tutorials, but what about those old fashioned papery things? What of those do we recommend?
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