| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Cymro |
Rearing CalvesHi there.I have only just visited the forum this afternoon, but as soon as I read a few of the posts, it quickly became apparent just how friendly and supportive an environment it was. Consequently, I hope that you all don't mind me joining the forum. Along with my family, I will shortly be moving to live on a smallholding and along with keeping the usual beef stock, I have been thinking about the possibility of buying young calves, feeding them and later selling them. I have been in touch with my local farmers co-op and am waiting to hear the prices for calf feed to hopefully try and establish whether this might be profitable. To be perfectly honest, what has spurred this idea, is the fact that last week a Friesian bull calf was sold at a cattle market in Pembrokeshire for £4. Admittedly, Friesians are not the best breed for beef, but surely, there must be a steak or two. Unfortunately, I am slightly inexperienced when it comes to farming, so I would appreciate any advice and thoughts you might have about the idea and about potential pitfalls. Thank you very much indeed. |
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| tahir |
Welcome on board, there's a few beefy people here who'll know more but I believe the issue with Fresians is that they don't have the right shape for beef; they don't have enough expensive cuts. | ||
| Cathryn |
Hello Cymro, another one of us in Wales.
I know that a couple of farmers on here are doing as you suggest although I suspect not with Fresians. Bet they will be along with advice shortly. |
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| Rob R |
Well welcome  What a fine subject to start on 
Actually friesians do make good beef, the trouble is that so many of them have more holstein blood than friesian these days (not really foolproof but go for less leggy calves with more black in their costs if you have a choice). Cereals feeds have shot up so much recently that intensive feeding is becoming less profitable now so calf coarse mix & calf milk replacer is getting expensive and grazing is probably going to take over. So there probably isn't much margin in it at the moment. Buying ex dairy cows to rear batches of calves at grass is what some farmers do (my father included) and that is probably the all round best way. If I were you I'd get a good book, Calf Rearing by Bill Thickett is pretty much what it says on the cover. |
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| Pel |
At work they didnt buy in friesians, but purebred guernsey dairy bull calfs, yes they did cost almost absoultely nothing, and the majority of the time were grass fed, but to bulk them up at some point or other either over winter or a few months before slaughter, you will have to feed mainly grain.
Wasnt so bad for us as work grows its own grain, but they did take nearly twice as long as the welsh black who are bred for beef. If you do like Rob said and buuy ex-dairy cows and rear calves from them, you could then also sell them on as store cattle, and keep just one for yourself. There is a lady somewhere down newcastle emlyn (i think) who makes a living on grain fed guernsey bull beef. Also remember that unless you castrate the calves you will be dealing with bulls, which isnt for the faint hearted... most of the time they do as they are told, but every now and then especially when the hormones kick in they will stand and try and stare you down. |
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| RichardW |
We have done the "dairy bull calf" thing & it makes very good beef.
Industry dont like them as the need more feed for less meat. But on a small scale I think the numbers stack up well especialy if you are going to take them to slaughter & retail the meat. If your plan is to sell once weened (or slightly older) I doubt you will have a market to sell to as no one will want them at any price. Richard |
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| TAVASCAROW |
My dad used to rate them but he farmed when feed was cheap (Mostly home grown) & there wasn't a 30 month limit.
I still remember loading monster friesian steers when I was a teenager but they were usually 36 to 48 months old at slaughter. |
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| Pel |
True it did taste good the guersney meat, definetly a lot better than supermarket.. i'll have to try non-organic guernsey as well really to see if that makes a difference... still prefer welsh black though. | ||
| ariana |
Cymro, if you are looking to rear some beef for yourself, it's probably still just about a viable way of doing it, but you'll be highly unlikely to be able to sell them on (especially if you don't castrate them). If you go direct to a dairy farmer they might even give them to you for free to save the bother of sending them to market (you can ask the farmer to put a rubber ring on for you too) and they'd be less stressed and less likely to pick up an infection.
Now wouldn't be the best time of year to do it. If you can time it so that weaning them off the bucket co-incides with the grass starting to grow, you can cut the cost of the cereals. We used to do it years ago and there was little in it even then when cereals were less than half the price they are now. |
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| Cymro |
Tahir, Cathryn, Rob, Pel, Richard, Tavascarow and Ariana: Thank you all so much for sharing your advice, knowledge and expertise. I checked the forum this afternoon and I was so surprised to have received eight replies within twenty four hours.
Up until today, I was convinced that it was a good idea to rear calves by bucket. But having read the views of Rob R and Pel, the idea of rearing calves with a dairy cow seems like an even better idea. I have ordered the recommended book (Calf Rearing), but in the meantime, would anyone happen to have more thoughts/advice regarding using ex-dairy cattle to rear calves? Coincidentally, there was a dairy sale in Carmarthen mart yesterday, the cheapest dairy cow was £780. What is a realistic price for a ex-dairy cow? (Also re calves, the cheapest Limousin bull was £7, Welsh Black bull £20 & Belgian Blue bull £30.) Would it be better to consider a Jersey cow as opposed to a Holstein Friesian? The one thing I'm concerned with this idea is regarding mastitis. Would one calf be able to extract enough milk from the cow, or would more than one be required? Also I would have imagined that I would be in a very deep hole, if for example the cow was to reject the calf. That's enough from me for now. Thank you ever so much once again for your replies and warm welcome to this fantastic forum. I look forward to hear from you and to ''talk'' with you again soon. |
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| Pel |
If the cow rejects the calves, then it involves a lot of time from either trying to get them to bond, or milk the dairy cow twice a day and use her milk to bucket feed the calves.. VSS on here does that.
If you can get weaned calves, that even better as you don't have to worry about the whole milk issue, but as ariana said if you go straight to the farmer they may give you their males calves.. thats how we got our guernseys. holstein/friesan cow gives between 22-32 litres of milk a day (depends how hard you push her) thats with a lactation of a 305 days, but you will have to put her into calf as well to get the milk. Jerseys have a slighlty lower yield than the friesans x's. So with either you should have plenty of milk for the calves, and if you liked to milk have some for yourself as well. I'm sure the others will be able to give you more advice on dairy cattle, i'm more of a beef cattle person so have a limited/brief practical knowledge of dairy.. lots of theory tho. |
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| tahir |
Heard a radio programme today extolling the virtues of Guerneys for beef and rose veal | ||
| Cymro |
Thanks Pel.
As with anything, if it goes right (i.e. cow accepts calf/calves) it's quite possible it would be worthwhile. Especially with regards to the current calf export market and the whole issue of TB in Holland - resulting in lower calf prices, like I mentioned. BUT, then again, if it did go wrong (i.e. the cow rejects the calf), it has the potential to go wrong in a big way. In the worst case scenario, it would be virtually impossible for me to milk the cow twice a day due to other commitments. This coupled with my very little knowledge of dairy cattle, would make a bad situation worse IF it went wrong. Looking at the figures, I would probably have to sell at least three good calves before I could cover the cost of buying the dairy cow. All in all, it's a pretty hard decision. |
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| Pel |
How much are weaned calves selling at the moment in your local market? and then look how much they are selling store cattle at, obviously try and find the same breeds as then you get a better comparison.
If you can a profit on buying in weaned calves and selling as stores, be in dairy or a beef breed and only fed on grass, no harm in giving that a go, just don't get too many animals for how much land you have and then that way you hopefully won't have to feed concentrates in the winter and just silage. If you rotated between say four fields every 10 weeks in the winter it should also help to stop poaching of the ground (dependant on whether you have a low stocking density or high stocking density for the fields) here might be the mart you went to, it also shows store cattle prices as well as heifer and bull calves http://www.bjpmarts.co.uk/marketreports.asp |
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| NeathChris |
Your best bet is to go down the mart in carmarthen and see what is what and what they are making.
I know a fe months ago 3/4 bred limos in calf to a pedigree lim bull where making aroun £700, and these where good cows. If you want dairy calves off farm i may be able to help you, a mate is a dairy farmer down west. |
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| RichardW |
With multi suckling one cow should feed to weening 7 or 8 calfs. Using a bucket system about 8-10.
Richard |
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| NeathChris |
If your looking to sell beef rather than veal then its probably worth you getting a beef breed or cross, especially if you want to sell any surplus on. | ||
| ariana |
Cymro, you wouldn't be able to leave the calves with the cow to start with. Ideally you'd need to put them to suck at least twice a day. This is what I would do (have done, with many a cow). Get yourself a cow. Ideally an older, suckler cow that has just calved with her calf at foot. (The problem with a dairy cow is that she just isn't used to a calf/calves suckling). Either buy the cow yourself direct from a farmer or a mart or get a local dealer to buy one for you (you probably won't pay any more that way as the local boys are likely to run you up in Carmarthen Mart anyway) and buy her on the condition that you can return her if she is too difficult (they are usually pretty amenable in that way). At the same time buy an extra calf. My ideal choice would be a Friesan x Hereford cow with a beef heifer calf at foot. The extra calf could be a dairy calf. Separate the cow from its own calf and put the two calves in a pen together. Let the cow out to graze during the day. At night bring her in, halter and tie her and put the two calves to suckle, one each side. Keep her standing still (ish) by putting a bucket of cake in front of her. She won't want the adoptee to start with. Don't LET her reject it. Stand between the calf and the cow's head and put the calf to suck. You need a calf that is straight off a cow, otherwise it will have forgotten how to suckle. Once they are on a bucket it is very difficult to get them back onto a cow! To prevent the cow from kicking, hold her tail upright (absolutely upright) and push the calf's head down to the udder. Once the both of them have had their fill, separate them from the cow again. Don't let her have her own calf with her. Do this twice a day. You'll need to give the calves hay and water as well. By the end of a week, she should be accepting the second calf as her own. Now if YOU want some milk for the house, you can take your share before you let the calves out to suckle. The beauty of this system is that you don't HAVE to milk her. If you've got enough or don't have time, just let the calves have a bit extra. When it comes to weaning and fattening the calves you can choose whether to finish the pair of them for beef, or sell the cow's own calf (if she is a dairyxbeef heifer) for breeding as a suckler. Other folk may prefer a different system, but this is what worked best for us. |
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| Cymro |
Thank you very much indeed ariana for the advice and to everyone else.
As yet, I still haven't come to any conclusion. As I may have mentioned, I am also toying with the idea of buying some weaned calves. But the original idea was young calves. Like I mentioned to you, the problem I would have is time. If I was on the farm full-time I probably wouldn't be writing this now but be out feeding the calves. ariana, please excuse my ignorance, but can I ask you, what's the reason behind keeping both of the calves in a pen and not out with the cow? Is there any risk at all that the cow would reject her own calf? Has your choice of cow (Her x Fri) got anything to do with the docile nature of the Hereford? (I ask this as I am very keen on the Hereford's nature) Thanks a lot for all your help. |
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| ariana |
Firstly, even an "experienced" nurse cow that will allow pretty much anything to suckle, will favour her own calf over another. So by keeping the two calves together in a pen you're working on the principle that if she won't accept them both then she's not having either! Secondly, if you allow them outside with the cow before you are sure she has well and truly accepted the foster calf as her own you can't be sure that it would be getting its fair share at the milk bar. By putting the pair of them to suckle at the same time inside, it a) allows you to make sure they are each getting their fill and b) allows the cow's own calf to act as a diversion whilst you put the second calf to suck. You'd have a hell of a job to get a cow to take to a new calf, if she is loose in a field. Thirdly, as I mentioned, if YOU want some milk, it means the milk bar is full to overflowing at feeding time so you can take your share first if you want some. A Hereford crossed with a Friesian makes an excellent suckler cow (although many other breeds do too). She'll have plenty of milk for two calves, though not so much that you'll be drowning in it, and as you say Herefords have a lovely docile nature. They make good mothers. Crossed with a beef bull she'll produce a good calf that is quick to fatten or if you wanted to sell a heifer calf on, rather than fatten it, it would still retain enough of the dairy cow to make a suckler cow (though admittedly not as milky as a first cross). |
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| dpack |
i like it here 
im a beginner with moos ,they are a steep learning curve but nice critters (mostly) as far as i can work out the moo needs to be suitable for your local conditions /feed regime buying weened calfs is possible from overstocked beef producers our highlands worked out at about £125 each ,delivered and are a mixed bunch in terms of growth on salad ,but even tiny is bigger than he was , some seem much larger ,out of a bunch it may be best to do the slow ones as young beef /grass finished veal and keep the fast growers until 30 months ,we will find out how they have done soon, hooves crossed it has taken me a while to get to be comfortable enough to be safe in the strip with the mob of breeding dexters and growing jocks and i will always remember they are but a snort or fly bite from a horrid accident breeding moos to suit the conditions is good ,choosing moos can work , even easy moos can be hard work and quite scary if they get upset or clumsy or humorous |
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| dpack |
ps i should mention i dont do the hands on day to day stuff ,but learning from experts might get me to "able stockman "eventually
the ds folk are ace , i re read all the above and the advice seems very sensible |
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| Cymro |
Once again thanks so much for all of your help and advice.
I think that the advice which ariana gave about the multi suckling system was invaluable. As a matter of fact, I am on the lookout for an OTM Fri X Her or similar. What I am also looking for are some weaned calves. I have spoken to a couple about these, and the prices which they seem to be asking for is, in my opinion a bit steep. A "quote" that I was given a week ago, for some 3.5 months old Fri x Lim weaned heifer calves was just over £300. I don't know much about the trade, (as you will have established) but I don't think I'm prepared to pay that much. The figure I had in my mind was nearer £200/£225. |
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| Cymro |
dpack.
About your highland cattle. Is there much demand for that breed, assumedly for beef??? If you were to sell your cattle at market, would it be under a 'normal' entry or at a rare breed sale? I've never seen a highland cow in the flesh, so I'd be eager to know what you have to say about the breed. |
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| dpack |
first parts ,dont know
up close they are nice the fur and eye thing is no bad look |
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| Ixy |
this book better be good rob, bought it now! | ||
| gil |
Small scale Highland beef keepers I know up here tend to sell privately (for breeding or for meat), or to get butchered and then sell direct themselves to the specialist restaurant/hotel trade, and at farmers markets. |
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| Rob R |
Last time I read it was about 15 years ago |
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| Ixy |
your bacon is saved - there is *everything* in this book! 
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| Rob R |
Where's the smug looking emoticon?
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| Ixy |
really??? how many litres per day is that per calf? I thought they needed at least 4 litres a day and a friesian would give 20ish litres a day - 5 calves? |
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| RichardW |
Yeh about 1 gallon per day per calf
BUT how loooooong does a cow give milk for? Not just 4-6 weeks a calf needs it for. Feed 4 calfs for the first batch 3 the next then a 2 & poss even a 1 if you can be bothered. All dep on how milky she is. Richard |
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| Ixy |
ahhhh now it make sense, i thought you meant batches of 10! 
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| VSS |
I suggest that to consider weaning a calf at 4 - 6 weeks is rather early. We have weaned bucket reared calves at 8 - 10 weeks (providiong they are eating hay/straw and cake). If you wean too early they will live, but at the end of the day you will get a much better animal if you wean them later. Also if you've got plenty of milk, enough for the house, and enough calves, there is no harm in carrying on with the milk feeding in addition to the cake. Our last batch of the year (bought in in July), are still getting a gallon of milk each per day. We have three cows milking and this year we have reared 10 calves, made all our own butter, had a gallon of milk a day for the house, and had plenty to give to the growing pigs. We could have reared more calves, but couldn't afford to buy them in, and we haven't pushed the cows. |
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| shadiya |
If you do decide to buy in unweaned calves, I would say that one of the most important things is to make sure that they have had colustrum as they are much more susceptible to bugs if they haven't. I would also try and make links with local farmers for the long term because any calf bought from a market is going to be stressed and will have been exposed to who knows what infections from all the other stock. Buying straight from farm will normally prevent this. One last thing is that I have been told by a breeder of Herefords that they do not like being outwintered, so that is another consideration to take into account. I don't know what other people think about that? I was planning on getting some myself but as I outwinter my cattle, I've been put off. | ||
| VSS |
we don't outwinter any cattle, but even if we did, i would keep this years bucket calves in. |