Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption
 


       Downsizer Forum Index -> Energy Efficiency and Construction/Major Projects
Cathryn

Renovating

I wasn't sure how to title this but we are beginning renovating our house. It's a combination of a very old house with later added Victorian wings and "challenging" for far too many reasons. We are insulating from the outside which might be of interest to some of you. It's made from huge lumps of stone, probably straight from the beach which is about hundred yards away. (See above note about challenging...)

Scaffolding goes up on Wednesday apparently so we first of all had to start to solve one of the big problems. The driveway used to end at the window sill. The trench is about three and half feet deep and exposed several generations unsuccessfully trying to solve the damp in that side of the house. All suggestions would be appreciated. My concern is that we cannot slope it so it meets the drive in anyway as it's too steep.



kGarden

I wasn't happy with a slabbed terrace here which looked like it had been laid rather high, with respect to damp course.

We dug a trench all around the house and laid a French drain in it (perforated corrugated [flexible] pipe bedded on a bit of gravel and covered with same). Slabs are relaid with a narrow gap next to the house wall (and inch or two) which lets the water (running down the walls, or coming towards the house from the slabs) into the gravel trench, and from there to the pipe. The perforated pipe is Y-joined into the rainwater downpipe's pipes.
Cathryn

The problem with a french drain here is that it's deep so if something blocked it we would be stuffed.

On the inside the window sill is 80cm off the floor. (The others in the room are at different heights. Rolling Eyes ) We are thinking a wider gap left open.


(What I actually wanted was a gently sloping driveway and a lovely green lawn that came graciously and gracefully up to the windows. I am slowly letting go of this dream.)
Ty Gwyn

A wider gap left open to below floor level is the best solution for your damp.
kGarden

We are thinking a wider gap left open.


Like a formed-trench with a grill on the top, for example?
dpack

if you have 800mm from sill to floor inside(stone floor?)about 1000mm to the base of the drain/gully outside would be a good bet .

inside remove all plaster,needle gun to give a good key and render in 2 coats of waterproofed 4 to 1 sharp sand/portland,finish with a multifinish skim

i would usually say re plaster to about 1,25 m high but as YOU ARE SO NEAR THE SEA there is a high chance that there is a lot of salt in the walls and plaster,get rid of it all the way to the top ,this will reduce the hydroscopic absorbsion,wicking etc etc and after a year or so drying out should give a decent dry surface to decorate .

if it is a stone floor it might be worth lifting the slabs and digging out enough to blind it with sand fit a 1000gm polythene damp proof membrane and relay slabs or a concrete floor

if it is carpet over stone or concrete a dodgy but cheap alternative to relaying the floor is to put the dpm under the carpet and underlay
that often helps but can lead to mould and or water being forced into the walls .

do it well isnt cheap but it will work better long term,do it cheap might help a bit but wont work long term

if it is stone injecting the masonry or mortar might or might not help for the extra couple of hundred quid i would do it

originally the inside and out would probably have been lime washed which breathes and allows salts to crystallize for brushing away and combined with drafts and open fires would have been fairly cosy . stripping the external paint and using lime wash instead might help quite a bit.
crofter

originally the inside and out would probably have been lime washed which breathes and allows salts to crystallize for brushing away and combined with drafts and open fires would have been fairly cosy . stripping the external paint and using lime wash instead might help quite a bit.


She is going to fix insulation on the outside walls & then ? clad or render I suppose
onemanband

A wider gap left open to below floor level is the best solution for your damp.

Yep.
Outside ground being higher than internal floor is never a good idea.

Suggest dig outside to below internal level and build brick/rendered block wall where you've cut tarmac. Finish wall say 6 inches above tarmac to act as a kerb. Or maybe a low wall with piers and railings.
tahir

I think what I'd do is:

1. Tank externally with a waterproof render up to soil level (having removed existing render to that level)
2. Insulate externally, ensuring that anything underground is guaranteed waterproof (extruded polystyrene?), backfill.
3. Speak to a local damp proofing firm about the best way to deal with the damp coming up through the walls
4. Possibly use a waterproof plaster part way up internal walls (depending on what the damp proofer says)
5. Use waterproof insulation under the floor

You could clad or render the outside afterwards

**EDIT** Just reread dpack's post, all sounds sensible but I'd also insulate under the floor
Cathryn

Smile Thank you

So - the damp doesn't come up from the ground except in the sense that it flowed down the slope and into the walls. The floor in there is dry and beautiful, it's wooden blocks laid over very efficient under floor channels. I don't think we will have to do anything to it. Fingers crossed. On the other hand the wall next to that window is falling off. The outer walls will be clad and then nothing will be done to the inside surfaces for at least a year possibly two on that side of the house while it all dries out (and probably falls off Rolling Eyes )

The windows in there are wrecked. Although 200 years of being damp still compare favourably to the less than twenty year old plastic ones in two rooms upstairs Twisted Evil

Funnily enough our neighbour and friend is a damp proofer and will likely be doing the internal cladding one day. I will ask him about this specifically. We have discussed tanking. I think there may be a slight tension between Jack and I living here and our great grandchildren living here. (It's a farmhouse, same family, forever, theoretically)

dpack, I will remember that plastering when we get to that stage, thank you. Jack did roll his eyes when I said I would be asking on here and said that someone is going to mention limewash... Smile In an ideal world, yes, but this is bloody big lump of house and we can't afford it.

We are going to have to leave a gap aren't we. Oh well at least we can see anything happening then.
Falstaff

Did quite a few damp proof injections in the 80's - worked pretty well on brick but we only did one on stone and that was a specialist job with electrolitic terminals. I'm not sure now How it worked - but worth finding out because it worked !

We also took up the floors and laid hot asphalt floors turned up the walls.

Saw the guy about 8 years later and he was still pleased with the dryness situation Very Happy
dpack

i didnt like to mention hot asphalt but it can be useful in the right places

i understand the tension between best and affordable and recommend best you can afford even if that means one piece at a time .

my lime and drafts suggestion is firmly based in the 18th c and remedial work is a 21st c job.

the dig a ditch tactic will help lots and if it is filling up cos it cant drain naturally a sump pump is a small cost compared to a wet house

finding someone who knows this sort of stuff and is local enough to do a mk one eyeball and tell you truth about what you are dealing with and then suggest a selection of options is a good place to start

on the plus side solid floors are better than wet timbers
Gervase

'Rising damp' is a myth peddled by the damp industry - penetrating damp is the usual problem. Injected DPCs do not work on rubble stone. Anyone who tries to sell you one will be relying on the tanking inside to keep the damp at bay - but after three years or so you'll see it reappear about three feet above floor level, where the tanking stops.
And if they offer a guarantee, smile and move on. I've never known any damp company honour a guarantee. Most go bust or reconstitute themselves every few years to avoid paying out.
French ditch, land drain, below ground tanking and breathable materials is the way to go.
dpack

French ditch, land drain, below ground tanking and breathable materials is the way to go.

that seems quite sensible with the caveat that breathable outside and dry inside does give the options of wallpapers ,normal paint regimes etc etc

breathable inside is probably best done in lime based render and lime wash which is ok if that is the finish you and your descendants like

my vote would be impervious inside and breathable /easy maintained outside

the wood block floor is probably layed in pitch or asphalt and if it is ok now dont mess with it Wink
wellington womble

I have no words of wisdom about damp (except move, but I presume you'd rather live with jack and he's unextractable) but sympathy with renovations of all kinds. There's always a finished room here if you need a break... Cathryn

'Rising damp' is a myth peddled by the damp industry - penetrating damp is the usual problem. Injected DPCs do not work on rubble stone. Anyone who tries to sell you one will be relying on the tanking inside to keep the damp at bay - but after three years or so you'll see it reappear about three feet above floor level, where the tanking stops.
And if they offer a guarantee, smile and move on. I've never known any damp company honour a guarantee. Most go bust or reconstitute themselves every few years to avoid paying out.
French ditch, land drain, below ground tanking and breathable materials is the way to go.

We agree and especially because the floor is fabulous after about 150 years. About two generations ago the walls on the outside and inside have been sealed. As a result the wall is coming off above this level as the water has simply filled up in there and come over the top.
Cathryn

I have no words of wisdom about damp (except move, but I presume you'd rather live with jack and he's unextractable) but sympathy with renovations of all kinds. There's always a finished room here if you need a break...

Thank you! Smile

We have several years of this but because we are doing the reverse of what dpack suggests we will be able to do this work more or less room by room.

We have had long chats with Vegplot about this as well. We always favoured his advice but thought it would cost far too much, thankfully it won't and we can do the other work when the rooms are dried out and when we can afford it.

There's talk of biomass which I am not in favour of unless the talk of some new approach which means we can use our own woodland as we do now is actually for real. I am also going to look into a new type of heating which has been researched for several years by Swansea University for the company involved and is shortly to be trialled in houses in Bristol. This uses thin carbon layers so it could be in a picture, mirror whatever and is activated with a minimal amount of electricity that could be provided by solar panels. It warms the solid objects in the room, people, tables, things rather than the air itself. It sounds interesting but we will have to see. No more leaking radiator pipes.

dpack the walls are built with boulders from the beach and the cement is undoubtedly made with beach sand. It is very exposed here (and as a result, beautiful). Because of these circumstances making the outside waterproof and adding to the heat store or cool store that is the house makes sense.
dpack

fair points re boulders and dubious mortar,thing is the waterproof and insulating layers on the outside that i have seen round here(although slightly different as they are over brick)seem to have made internal damp worse.
if there is no water wicking up all will be fine ,if there is it will get out somewhere.the modern low pressure injection compounds that are for treating the mortar rather than the brick/stone isnt very expensive and might add to a belt and braces approach.
preventing water penetrating from outside is sensible and the ditch ,gully or whatever is a very good move

that the floor is dry does point to most of the water coming in rather than up
12Bore

I am also going to look into a new type of heating which has been researched for several years by Swansea University for the company involved and is shortly to be trialled in houses in Bristol. This uses thin carbon layers so it could be in a picture, mirror whatever and is activated with a minimal amount of electricity that could be provided by solar panels. It warms the solid objects in the room, people, tables, things rather than the air itself. It sounds interesting but we will have to see. No more leaking radiator pipes.
Is that somehow related to this?
http://www.iqglass.com/press_releases/09_21_06.html
Behemoth

[quote="12Bore:1427675Is that somehow related to this?
http://www.iqglass.com/press_releases/09_21_06.html[/quote]

Does that mean you cant close your curtains?
Cathryn

This http://www.matildasplanet.com/our-products/hotfish.aspx

Do not quote me on the technology. (I needed to add that didn't I. Smile )
Cathryn

[quote="12Bore:1427675Is that somehow related to this?
http://www.iqglass.com/press_releases/09_21_06.html

Does that mean you cant close your curtains?[/quote]

Is this link supposed to lead to one of those sort of pages?
wellington womble

This http://www.matildasplanet.com/our-products/hotfish.aspx

Do not quote me on the technology. (I needed to add that didn't I. Smile )

That looks very exciting. I wonder if it works? It would be amazing if you could retrofit underfloor heating without all the faff. I miss my underfloor heating. I always understood that any low heat system needed really good insulation to work well - is that still the case? And I wonder how you plug them in?!
onemanband


And if they offer a guarantee, smile and move on. I've never known any damp company honour a guarantee. Most go bust or reconstitute themselves every few years to avoid paying out.

Look for an insurance backed guarantee
Cathryn

This http://www.matildasplanet.com/our-products/hotfish.aspx

Do not quote me on the technology. (I needed to add that didn't I. Smile )

That looks very exciting. I wonder if it works? It would be amazing if you could retrofit underfloor heating without all the faff. I miss my underfloor heating. I always understood that any low heat system needed really good insulation to work well - is that still the case? And I wonder how you plug them in?!

It works at an experimental level apparently. Have to see what it is like in houses. It's going to look traditional at first, like radiators then I think imagination is the limit. And no mention yet of price.
henchard

We had minor damp coming through our stone walls (the floor has a dpm).

So a channel was cut in the concrete slab parallel to the wall and damproofing membrane pinned to the internal walls. Any damp that does get through then drains down below the slab. The cut part of the slab is made good with resin.

With luck you can see it (looks a bit like bubblewrap) fixed to the outside walls in the photo below (before the wall is insulated and plastered or the the screed is laid).

It seems to work well. BUT the damp was minor and ground level is not high like yours.

       Downsizer Forum Index -> Energy Efficiency and Construction/Major Projects
Page 1 of 1
Home Home Home Home Home