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Treacodactyl

Small car diesel vs petrol plus other questions

The time has come to trade in my 3 year 4x4. I need a safe, reliable car mostly for two people. I occasionally need room for transporting things but even with a large car there's not always room so size isn't that important.

Looking about and subject to a road test I think I might get a Skoda Fabia, probably a year or two old.

Has anyone any experience of a Skoda Fabia, if so what's it like to drive, especially on rough motorways and in the wind? Luckily I should be able to arrange a several hour test drive to get a reasonable idea.

At just under 4 meters I don't think I would feel that safe in anything much shorter on a motorway these days, especially with the number of rear end shunts you often see. Does anyone know of any rear end crash tests done on small cars?

Lastly, what engine to go for, the 100bhp petrol or 100bhp diesel? They both perform similarly and the diesel is a little over 15mpg more efficient. However, the diesel will cost more to buy and diesel fuel costs more than petrol, although the petrol car is in the next tax bracket. After a year or so I also hope to reduce my mileage so efficiency might not be that critical on pure money saving grounds.

At the moment the petrol seems best as it will cost £1,000 less and cost about £200 a year more to run until I cut down my mileage, then about £100.
Northern_Lad

How come you're looking at year-olds? Get something from 2001 and it'll be in the new tax brackets and suffered most of the depeciation it's going to. If you go for a diesel then it won't even have much effect on the engine.

I'm very happy with my 206. Even though it's the 2.0 HDI I can still get 70mpg from it, and I don't think I've had less than 45. Cruises well on the moterways, not too bad in a side wind, and cheep to insure.
Green Man

I agree, I like little French diesels too. Very frugal and reliable. Put on a tow bar and trailer for bulky things. Idea
Treacodactyl

I'm thinking of a nearly new Skoda because it's more reliable than a Peugeot according to the surveys I've looked at and being nearly new it will still have the manufacturers warranty, so 1-2 years. It seems a bit cheaper as well. Reliability is also very important for the next couple of years.

The diesel Fabia also does 70mpg on a long run but I would need to travel about 50,000 miles to break even and even if I keep the car for 10 years I hope to drive much less than that.

Tow bar and trailer is certainly something I'm considering.
Northern_Lad

Reliability studies are all very well and good, but if you're the one in ten million who gets the duff one...
I understand your thinking about the manufacturers warranty, but if you're not planning on doing many miles then it becomes less of an issue.
Jonnyboy

Skoda fabia's do very well based on owner feedback to the jdpower surveys, What car etc.
Treacodactyl

It's a bit more like 1 in 20 though. Having visited several manufacturers recently the Skoda garage gave the best impression by far. Some dealerships are still just so awful in the way they treat customers it's shocking. I must admit to not visiting any of the French makes though.
Northern_Lad

Treacodactyl wrote:
It's a bit more like 1 in 20 though. Having visited several manufacturers recently the Skoda garage gave the best impression by far. Some dealerships are still just so awful in the way they treat customers it's shocking. I must admit to not visiting any of the French makes though.


The dealers are where most of the French ones fall down (must be some motherland training going on Very Happy ), but the cars are generally well reviewed.
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
I'm thinking of a nearly new Skoda because it's more reliable than a Peugeot according to the surveys I've looked at and being nearly new it will still have the manufacturers warranty, so 1-2 years. It seems a bit cheaper as well. Reliability is also very important for the next couple of years.

The diesel Fabia also does 70mpg on a long run but I would need to travel about 50,000 miles to break even and even if I keep the car for 10 years I hope to drive much less than that.

Tow bar and trailer is certainly something I'm considering.


I'm not sure how 'reliable' reliability surveys actually are.
Does a squeak from the window winder count the same as a failure to start? I'm rather afraid that it usually does.
Modern cars are much more reliable than those of previous generations - at least as regards basic functionality. However, the more toys, the more things there are to go wrong. And so the greater chance of something, mission-critical or not, giving trouble.

The Fabia is basically a VW Polo in disguise (or is it the other way round?)
The 1.4 diesel has a great reputation.

Don't use veg oil. It'll just gum things up, produce more particulate pollution, AND cost more on road fuel duty than proper biodiesel. Even running on just 10% biodiesel is better than on 100% petrol. (British Ethanol use is still nowhere as developed as biodiesel.)

The big thing that you have left out of your economic assessment is the residual value. And the longer you keep the vehicle, the more well-maintained miles are on it, the greater the likely margin of advantage to the diesel.
Diesel prices vary, sometimes seasonally, and diesel and petrol are now taxed identically (with a lower rate for biodiesel).
One can make one's own biodiesel, at least in principle. I dread to think of the Excise requirements for home made Ethanol... before even considering the energy needed for distillation.

The things that one might take issue with are the assumption that a three year old car *must* be replaced (though this may not be a personal decision), and that "french" or "german" engines might differ in reliability because of their nationality (as though either were even likely to have been built in those countries... Neutral ) IMHO there is much more 'national character' in the style and interior decorations than there is in the mechanical engineering design.
Speaking very generally, diesel engines (which lack ignition electrics) being simpler, are more reliable runners than petrol-injection engined vehicles.
Armchair

You can compare the safety ratings of cars in various size classes (e.g. small family car, large family car) at www.euroncap.com
Treacodactyl

Thanks for the link armchair, I've edited out the full stop.

Looks like my knees might get some damage if a front crash but basically a safe car. However, no mention of a rear end shunt and i don't ever recall seeing such tests.
Treacodactyl

Dougal, thanks for your comments.

The 100bhp diesel is a 1.9 (but as it emits less CO2 than the 100bhp 1.4 petrol it's in a lower tax band). I understand that to some extent the resale value of the diesel car should reflect the higher price paid. However, if I keep the car until it's 10 years old I wouldn't expect to get much back for a petrol or a diesel car. I also own a 12 year old Vauxhall at the moment and that's not really worth anything.

I think I would prefer the diesel car but that doesn't mean it's the best value.

By the way, I didn't say a 3 year car must be replaced. I'm replacing it for various reasons and now the 3 year warranty and 3 years free servicing up it seems like a reasonable time to think about downsizing a 2.0l 4x4. I also didn't say I chose the car because of where it's made, it's just a coincidence that I've not looked at a French based manufacturer.
countryman

Have you considerd running on bio-diesel?
Im in the process of setting up a small plant, i think it will reduce my carbon footprint more than the cost but thats fine with me.
Fuel security is the greatest advantage in my eyes.
dougal

Quote:
In January 2006 all 181 of our filling stations in the South East and North West of England were converted to biodiesel.
We have a 25% stake in biofuel supplier Greenergy. Greenergy is investing in the UK's largest single-line biodiesel plan, on the Humber estuary. It is scheduled to open in late 2006 with an annual production capacity of 100,000 tonnes. Greenergy plans to buy rapeseed for conversion to biodiesel from around 1,500 farmers contracted through Grainfarmers, a large agricultural co-operative in the UK.

Bloody Tesco. Cool
http://www.tescocorporate.com/biofuels.htm
It'll not be pure bio, not yet for some while, but its useful step, and I'm sure its profitable.
The surprising thing is the absence of overt greenwash.
countryman

Bloody Tesco indeed, theyll buy fresh rape oil, which takes away many benefits as your no longer making use of a "waste" product. It will be just as expensive as petro-diesel to you can be sure of that.
As i said its the whole fuel security thing that attracts me, in a few years when Israel and Iran go at it you can say goodbye to your middle eastern fuel supplies.
Treacodactyl

With my green hat on I'd certainly like a go at making bio-diesel or even trying to run something on veg oil. Then I could have a diesel generator, an old Landie and my car all running on the stuff.

However, realistically I can't see myself sorting anything out for several years.
Northern_Lad

Treacodactyl wrote:
I understand that to some extent the resale value of the diesel car should reflect the higher price paid. However, if I keep the car until it's 10 years old I wouldn't expect to get much back for a petrol or a diesel car.

The diifference isn't going to be much, but I think the diesel will still be running better after 10 years.

Treacodactyl wrote:
I also own a 12 year old Vauxhall at the moment and that's not really worth anything.

Was it worth anything when it was new? Laughing
Tay

I've generally heard good things about diesel Skodas - I knew a couple of taxi drivers back in the UK who said they were good value for money and handled very well. However, having been a passenger in a Fabia and Octavia, I can't say that they are the most comfortable of vehicles.

Our last 5 cars have been French diesels, and we have been very happy with them. Our current car is a 206 hdi which does around 1000km to 45 litres. It handles very well, is cheap to insure and is comfortable. With the back seats down (well designed so takes no time at all to do), you can easily get a washing machine or fridge in the back; a trailer will cope with anything larger. The boot is a perfect size for a bale of hay too.
MarkS

try this site for info
http://www.warrantydirect.co.uk/reliability_index.html?

they sell used car warranties and publish info about the claims they get so tend to be cars a couple of years old (out of the manufacturers warranty) and give both frequency and average cost of problems.

so Subaru's huge costs are balanced by the excellent reliability. But you might not want to take the risk as an individual.

more here
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=3553

And No, I am not a torygraph reader.
Treacodactyl

Many thanks for the links Mark, plenty to think about there especially as Skoda doesn't seem to do too well and a few people had bad comments on the 1.9TDi. Confused

Having a good look around I'm not convinced a 2/3 year old car is that good value for me, especially if I plan to keep the car for several years. The more modern cars also have more safety features.

A new 1.6 HDi Peogeot 207 looks reasonable but then a new Ford Fiesta 1.4 petrol is a couple of grand cheaper, does 55mpg on a long run and Fords seem to be one of the more reliable brands as well. The only question I would have is how comfortable they are on a long motorway journey.
MarkS

We have had a couple of older vag diesels. a couple of audi 1.9tdi and a volvo with the old 2.5 5 cylinder tdi engine and I find them very good. 50mpg in the real world from the audis (A4 btw), I once got 55mpg driving from sussex to home in the quattro where I sat at 85mph most of the way. OK thats as reported by the computer, but it isnt that far out, short journeys ie 7 mile commute into harrogate still gives 45mpg. One of the audis we sold at 135K the other we still have at 130K.

modern diesels do have fuel systems which can be both problematic and expensive if you ever put petrol in by mistake. the PD, CR and HDi engines are all very high pressure and have very tight tolerances. A high pressure fuel pump can cost £1500 to replace.

I would not want to do a long commute in a small car, it makes high speed driving a strain.

The most comfortable car I ever had was a subaru svx that I did 50K miles in. easy mile covering in all conditions. but 25mpg at best
Treacodactyl

MarkS wrote:
I would not want to do a long commute in a small car, it makes high speed driving a strain.


What do you class as a small car? My 12yr old Vauhall Astra was fine on long motorway trips. She's just too old now to be reliable and safe at speed. I much prefer a firmer, sportier ride than something too soft.

Funny you should mention the diesel fuel pump, a friend had their diesel pump go when the car was just out of warranty. I also know another who had the turbo ho on the TDi although both cars weren't VAG.

What's put me off the Fabia a bit is the fact a new version is coming out in a couple of months and they're not discounting the old one much. Looking about the nearly new ones also seem a tad expensive.

All of which brings me back to a new Ford Focus as the ideal car, especially when you can get about £3,000 of the list price. It should handle well, seems to have above average reliability and is a bit bigger than similarly priced cars. I wasn't too keen with the use of space though, especially in the back seats and boot.
Nick

Thing about a Focus is that you'll be able to get spare parts and find an ex-Ford mechanic. Anywhere. Smallest place in France? No problem. And probably deep into the Amazon, there's been a Ford before. The same will not be true of a Skoda.
Behemoth

OH got a three year old Focus recently. Have been relatively impressed with it so far as a day to day family car.
Jonnyboy

Coincidentally, we had friends over yesterday and they were driving a skoda fabia as their golf was in the garage.

Had a nose around, it's very well built, great finish, good plastics used, feels robust, good bootspace and rear passenger space for a small car.

Seats feel a little hard, might be a pain in the bum on longer journeys
dougal

MarkS wrote:
The most comfortable car I ever had was a subaru svx that I did 50K miles in. easy mile covering in all conditions. but 25mpg at best

And some here DO know just what an SVX looks like (even if we haven't had the pleasure of owning one!)


I think that Treacodactyl must not be mislead about "diesel fuel pumps".

Diesel injectors have since their invention in the 1930's (yes 20 years after Herr Diesel's death) been examples of serious precision engineering.
And that is in spades for the latest refinements (like VAG's PDs) ... The fuel pumps in question are part of the injection system.
Veg oil and such kit isn't a marriage made in hell, its a total abomination.
Remember that it wasn't until the invention of these liquid fuel injectors (20 years after Diesel's death) that ANY diesel engine small enough for a road vehicle could be built.
As for the internet myth about "Diesel invented his engine specifically to run on Veg Oil" - IMHO its just that, a myth.
I happen to have a 1936 Encyclopaedia Britannia which gives power outputs from Diesel's FIRST (18 hundred and something - way before the fabled "Paris Exhibition") demonstration engine. And it was running on petroleum (not veg) fuel.
Yes, Diesel did demonstrate his compression ignition engine running on veg oil. But he also demo'd it running on milk powder and coal dust!

If you don't abuse a Diesel engine, it will almost certainly run with boring reliability for a very, very long time. However, running veg oil IS a serious abuse of a modern, high tech, high efficiency engine.
Treacodactyl

Both the diesel cars that friends have had problems with were filled with normal diesel, I don't know anyone who would use bio-diesel let alone veg oil.
Treacodactyl

Behemoth wrote:
OH got a three year old Focus recently. Have been relatively impressed with it so far as a day to day family car.


What model is it? It'll be the old shape which I need to have a look at as it might be a better package than the new one. Have you sat in the back seats and does your head touch the roof before the headrest?

Jonnyboy, the Fabia is the best car for space I've seen so far.
Nick

dougal wrote:
[
I happen to have a 1936 Encyclopaedia Britannia


This is my Not Very Surprised face. Neutral


Wink
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
... I don't know anyone who would use bio-diesel let alone veg oil.

You should! - Well the Biodiesel bit anyway.
ALL diesels sold new in the EU for the last umpteen years (search this site) *must* be able to run Bio.
And big bad Tesco have been sneaking Bio into their 'city' diesel in the south-east for a year now...

There are plenty of other ways to abuse diesel engines apart from the choice of fuel!
dougal

nickhowe wrote:
dougal wrote:
[
I happen to have a 1936 Encyclopaedia Britannia


This is my Not Very Surprised face. Neutral


Wink

Didn't buy it new, actually. smilebox
Family heirloom.
TimNeo

lots of myths and 'experts' in this thread = ). here's my 2p as an 'expert'

Biodiesel regardless of where the source of the fuel comes from will improve the engine now we have stripped out sulphur (or soon will), or such is my understanding.

Biodiesel will not solve the worlds problems. It is a stop gap as there is not enough WVO (waste veggie oil) in the world to replace our oil addiction.

Small scale production certainly isn't financially viable if you have a paying job over about £9 an hour.

What is important though is keeping what cars we have from going to the scrap heap. Any second hand reliable and fuel efficent car is therefore a shrewd enviromental purchase. Huzzah to the people who buy second hand and will reuse and repair the perfectly safe cars on the road today! Any that aren't need recycling!

Whatever you decide on countryman, make sure it has a good mpg and is suitable for your needs so you don't need buy another one for many years to come!
Treacodactyl

dougal wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
... I don't know anyone who would use bio-diesel let alone veg oil.

You should! - Well the Biodiesel bit anyway.
ALL diesels sold new in the EU for the last umpteen years (search this site) *must* be able to run Bio.
And big bad Tesco have been sneaking Bio into their 'city' diesel in the south-east for a year now...

There are plenty of other ways to abuse diesel engines apart from the choice of fuel!


To rephrase then, nothing home made.

Now you mention it, is there anyway of knowing how well an engine has been looked after? It's certainly not unknown for people to put the wrong fuel into a car, and if you only put a few drops of the wrong stuff in could you do some damage that a second hand buyer wouldn't be able to spot?
dougal

fallscrape wrote:
... Biodiesel regardless of where the source of the fuel comes from will improve the engine now we have stripped out sulphur (or soon will), or such is my understanding.

Biodiesel will not solve the worlds problems. It is a stop gap as there is not enough WVO (waste veggie oil) in the world to replace our oil addiction.

...
What is important though is keeping what cars we have from going to the scrap heap. Any second hand reliable and fuel efficent car is therefore a shrewd enviromental purchase. Huzzah to the people who buy second hand and will reuse and repair the perfectly safe cars on the road today! Any that aren't need recycling! ...

No one thing is going to solve everything.
Biodiesel is convenient and an easy contribution to the right side of the balance. Its interchangeability with petro-diesel is what makes it so convenient. (Its also a better lubricant - for the injectors - and emits fewer particulates.)

Agreed about use something as long as it is appropriate.

Maybe time to restate my enthusiasm for the (now discontinued) super-efficient Audi A2...
Behemoth

Treacodactyl wrote:
Behemoth wrote:
OH got a three year old Focus recently. Have been relatively impressed with it so far as a day to day family car.


What model is it? It'll be the old shape which I need to have a look at as it might be a better package than the new one. Have you sat in the back seats and does your head touch the roof before the headrest?


2003, 1.6 hatchback. About 30mpg in the urban. Smooth and comfortable on the motorway. Not a stunning performance ride by any means. All the bits and pieces up front are well located and it seems generaly well put together. Haven't sat in the back and don't intend to! I would have preferred an estate but I OH didn't want one on the grounds it would give me the opportunty to abuse it. So I would say that the boot is adequate.
TimNeo

Treacodactyl wrote:
dougal wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
... I don't know anyone who would use bio-diesel let alone veg oil.

You should! - Well the Biodiesel bit anyway.
ALL diesels sold new in the EU for the last umpteen years (search this site) *must* be able to run Bio.
And big bad Tesco have been sneaking Bio into their 'city' diesel in the south-east for a year now...

There are plenty of other ways to abuse diesel engines apart from the choice of fuel!


To rephrase then, nothing home made.


Nothing wrong with home made! Just learn more about it! I found the lili course very informative, though it is good to do a bit of research first.

All cars can run on 5% without trouble and it will soon (if it hasn't already) become common place that all diesel is 5% to replace the damaging effects of removing sulphur from the fuel. Nothing wrong with home made if you know what you are doing, but the process isn't exactly an ABC process - it requires a bit of knowledge, experience and lots of time.

Check your pump if you're using more than 5% - as some have issues with the different types of fuel. More importantly check the local availablility too - no point driving hundreds of miles to fill up! ;- )
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
Now you mention it, is there anyway of knowing how well an engine has been looked after?

For the serious Pro, one can do an oilprint analysis.
This was being done in the mid 70's on 200 tonne payload open-pit trucks - where it was VERY worthwhile to monitor the state of the oil and engine. Ought to be more used today. Best used though to see trends and spot changes rather than as any absolute spot-check measure of condition.
dougal

fallscrape wrote:
All cars can run on 5% without trouble ...

Make that all MODERN cars...
Old ones (that have trouble anyway with Ultra Low Sulphur {"city"} Diesel) can have problems - it has to do with causing ordinary rubber to swell up.
Treacodactyl

Behemoth wrote:
2003, 1.6 hatchback. About 30mpg in the urban. Smooth and comfortable on the motorway. Not a stunning performance ride by any means. All the bits and pieces up front are well located and it seems generaly well put together. Haven't sat in the back and don't intend to!


Thanks for the comments, that's the sort of thing that might suit me well. Time for a visit to a local Ford dealer to have another rummage.
Behemoth

Which or What Car ranked it best second hand buy. There's a lot of them so they are cheap, they are relatively reliable and cheap and easy to maintain.
dougal

dougal wrote:
fallscrape wrote:
All cars can run on 5% without trouble ...

Make that all MODERN cars...
Old ones (that have trouble anyway with Ultra Low Sulphur {"city"} Diesel) can have problems - it has to do with causing ordinary rubber to swell up.


1996 is the magic date. After that, sold new in the EU, no problem. Before that, check carefully.
MarkS

What do you class as a small car?

Most of them - I am 6'4" Laughing

Its difficult these days - there are some very well designed vehicles around and some very badly designed vehicles - in terms of space usage. My FiL used to have a jag, huge thing - but no internal space at all and I dented his boot trying to close it on not a huge amount of luggage. then again it does seem as if cars are getting bigger every generation, then they slide a new model in at the bottom. I think the current Polo is bigger than the golf used to be.

The point about modern diesels is that the pressures in the fuel system are now huge. some pumps seem better than others at coping with misfuelling. There are quite a few reports of problems with the ford tdci engines, which ford are blaming on misfueling.

the issue with misfueling by the way is that diesel is a far better lubricant than petrol and it self lubricates the pump, put petrol in and you loose lubrication and can get small scrapings of metal into the fuel which can take out the rest of the fuel system.

and top marks for knowing what an svx is Cool If people havent seen one they tend to assume that all subarus are imprezas
dougal

The SVX does look rather different to Impreza, Forrester, Legacy, Justy... and it has LOTS of toys. Still looks more like a show car than a production vehicle. Mind you there aren't many around...



Re economical small-ish vehicles with plenty rear leg and headroom, that's the reason that the A2, rather oddly, has its rear seats mounted lower than the fronts!
And for a vehicle a few years old, what about a long wheelbase Merc A Class. Like the A2, well worth seeing one to form an informed opinion.
Armchair

Treacodactyl wrote:


All of which brings me back to a new Ford Focus as the ideal car, especially when you can get about £3,000 of the list price. It should handle well, seems to have above average reliability and is a bit bigger than similarly priced cars. I wasn't too keen with the use of space though, especially in the back seats and boot.


I drive a 05 Focus, 1.6 Zetec petrol. It is a decent enough car, fairly roomy at the front (I'm 6'2) but I've never sat in the back (can't reach the pedals from there!). Boot space is ok, handling is ok (heavier compared to other cars I've driven but you get used to it).

The only negatives really are:
1) Its size. It is pretty wide beast when compared to other similar cars although it is also a little taller which gives you a slightly loftier driving position.
2) Fuel economy. 32mpg for an average day's driving which includes around town and on the motorway. Personally I think that is very low, especially when you look at what a diesel can achieve.
Treacodactyl

Thanks for the comments Armchair, if you get a moment try sitting in the back and see what you think of the headroom.
Armchair

Treacodactyl wrote:
Thanks for the comments Armchair, if you get a moment try sitting in the back and see what you think of the headroom.


I'll try to remember to do it tomorrow and get back to you.
Treacodactyl

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I looked at the Fiesta and Focus today and decided on the Focus, the Fiesta being a bit too small and old. I've decided on a new car as it has more safety kit and I managed to get a good deal. Unfortunately the offer meant the 1.8 petrol engine was over £1k cheaper than the more frugal 1.6 and about £2k cheaper than a diesel. At least I'm swapping a far less frugal car.
Armchair

You beat me to it then Treacodactyl. I sat in the back of my car just now. The leg room is ok, hard to tell as it depends on how tall the person is and how far forward the front seats are. If they are under 6' I think they'll be fine.
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