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frewen

Soya from Brazil

I phoned the wholesaler today to find out where their soya products are from.

All non gm but some from Brazil - believed not to be from any *deforested* areas - but grey all the same. Neutral

Alpro seem to be pretty keen on traceability (or I've fallen for their marketing)

http://www.alprosoya.co.uk/alpro/UK_en/know_more/faq/index.html

But can anyone enlighten me as to the provenance of soya in animal feed?
Nick

Id go out on a limb and say 'Where ever is cheapest.' if you mean general bulk feed.
frewen

So can people who want to avoid feeding it to their animals?
LynneA

I'm tempted to have another go at growing some this year.

Anyone suggest a variety that will germinate AND grow in the UK?
Green Man

Not really. That is why soya is not grown comercially in the U.K. Here is a question for you. If Soya was genetically modified so that it could be sown in the autumn and overwinter like we do with wheat, then it would have a long enough growing season to grow in the U.K. Would the G.M. modification we worth it if it saved cutting down rain forests in Brazil? Britain is short of food, but protein is what we are really short of, hence our dependance on imported high protein feeds like soya.
frewen

So let me get this right - unless I eat wild meat I'm going to be consuming soya in some form because that's whats in the animal feeds - which will either be gm from America or from Brazil where its probably been instrumental in deforesting the Amazon?
Jamanda

Not all meat is fed cereal. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Rob's is.
frewen

I really hope so - or I'm in trouble Smile
Nick

Jamanda wrote:
Not all meat is fed cereal. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Rob's is.


I believe his cows and sheep are grass fed, but his pigs are cereal fed. As far as possible he grows the cereal for them on his land, or buys it from next door.

Clearly, he'll yell when I have this all arse about face.
Contadino

I was listening to an old episode of Farming Today, yesterday, and they were talking about Brazil and soya. Apparently, the only soya that can be imported into the EU is from 2 areas of the country, as all the others have failed inspections (lack of traceibility (sp?).)

So that leaves two issues which you have to make a judgement on:

1. Do you think Brazilian exporters could have hood-winked the EU inspectors?
2. Given that GM soya is grown in other latin american countries, how worried are you about contamination?
Green Man

Grass fed, free range 8 month old fat lambs are currently selling at British auction markets at below the cost of production, but consumers don't want that, they seem to prefer broiler chicken Surprised Why?
Treacodactyl

Both peas and field beans are grown in the UK for non-GM animal feed, used in place of soya. So I expect you could track down non-soya fed animals if you wish.
Green Man

Treacodactyl wrote:
Both peas and field beans are grown in the UK for non-GM animal feed, used in place of soya. So I expect you could track down non-soya fed animals if you wish.

E.U. farmers used to get subsidies to grow protein crops, but now they don't thanks to the CAP reform, so it is easier to grow more reliable wheat instead. A wet summer like last was devastating to legume crops.
Treacodactyl

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
Both peas and field beans are grown in the UK for non-GM animal feed, used in place of soya. So I expect you could track down non-soya fed animals if you wish.

E.U. farmers used to get subsidies to grow protein crops, but now they don't thanks to the CAP reform, so it is easier to grow more reliable wheat instead. A wet summer like last was devastating to legume crops.


Not all farmers had poor harvests, some had very good harvests and got a very good price. However, I don't think you can take just one year into account and there are options there.
frewen

Contadino wrote:
I was listening to an old episode of Farming Today, yesterday, and they were talking about Brazil and soya. Apparently, the only soya that can be imported into the EU is from 2 areas of the country, as all the others have failed inspections (lack of traceibility (sp?).)

So that leaves two issues which you have to make a judgement on:

1. Do you think Brazilian exporters could have hood-winked the EU inspectors?
2. Given that GM soya is grown in other latin american countries, how worried are you about contamination?


It would seem that I am worrying unecessarily (sp?) then Embarassed . I'm not sure how I feel about gm but I don't want to be knowingly helping the destruction of the rainforest.
Nick

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
Grass fed, free range 8 month old fat lambs are currently selling at British auction markets at below the cost of production, but consumers don't want that, they seem to prefer broiler chicken Surprised Why?


Don't buy lambs at the auctions then. Simple. Smile

Pimp my website.
Green Man

Nick wrote:


Don't buy lambs at the auctions then. Simple. Smile

Pimp my website.


Explain?
Green Man

Treacodactyl wrote:

Not all farmers had poor harvests, some had very good harvests and got a very good price. However, I don't think you can take just one year into account and there are options there.


By very good price do you mean about the same price as they used to get ten years ago? Because that is what most got.

You have missed the point, cereals are easier to grow than high protein crops so without the subsidy there is little incentive, leaving the E.U. with a shortage and the need to slash and burn in Brazil.
Treacodactyl

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:

Not all farmers had poor harvests, some had very good harvests and got a very good price. However, I don't think you can take just one year into account and there are options there.


By very good price do you mean about the same price as they used to get ten years ago? Because that is what most got.

You have missed the point, cereals are easier to grow than high protein crops so without the subsidy there is little incentive, leaving the E.U. with a shortage and the need to slash and burn in Brazil.


I have no idea about the price 10 years ago, however haven't you missed my point? I.e. there are alternatives that may be being used or at least could be used. In 2006 613,000 tonnes of beans were grown in the UK (I don't have 2007 numbers) and some might have found their way into poultry feed. If not perhaps some might if there's a demand for more local production.
Green Man

There is a gross shortage of protein in the E.U. Use the beans for poultry feed if you like, but it just leaves the shortage elsewhere. The current price for U.K. beans does not meet the amount needed for farmers to grow a riskier/ harder crop than cereal (also now in short supply). If consumers were prepared to pay for meats fed on local protein crops then of course they would be supplied, weather permitting. But the cheap price is what discourages E.U. farmers persevering with protein crops. Of course if farms were stocked at sustainable stock levels there would be no need to import any foods at all. It is only a farm that overstocks that needs to buy in foods. A well run mixed farm is self sufficient in animal feeds.
Nick

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
Nick wrote:


Don't buy lambs at the auctions then. Simple. Smile

Pimp my website.


Explain?


Click on the link, and buy lamb that are a) grass fed, b) from people you trust, c) Give them a fair deal and d) get them cheaper than you would at Tesco.
Green Man

I agree, but why are the general public, who all claim to want free range natural foods not buying lamb, but they are buying broiler chicken by the billion? You could have bought a whole fat lamb a couple of months ago at Perth mart for 20.00. Rolling Eyes
Nick

Sadly, they don't usually claim that's what they want. What they claim they want, and prove in spades, is cheap food.
Rob R

Nick wrote:
Jamanda wrote:
Not all meat is fed cereal. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Rob's is.


I believe his cows and sheep are grass fed, but his pigs are cereal fed. As far as possible he grows the cereal for them on his land, or buys it from next door.

Clearly, he'll yell when I have this all arse about face.


The marketing man is right. Wink

We don't make enough of protein rich forages in this country, we're too concerned with high DM ryegrasses, which leaves a protein shortage. The whole 'we can't get protein over here' argument is fundamentally flawed & plays into the hands of multinationals such as Monsanto. There isn't just the two options and protein doesn't have to come from pulses.

I've worked through the animals species by species, starting with the cattle, through sheep & then pigs and we're now GM/soya free in all those. The poultry is next on the list, but as I only have a handful at present I don't have a meaningful sized group to work with, but the intention is to go GM free when we start poulty commercially.

The main ways to do it are to gear production to the seasons- nature provides protein at the most appropriate stages that coincide with an animals need (or, more accurately, the other way round).

I see this path as a journey along a linear road, working in more intensive systems I saw it as a roundabout with no exits- encircling & compounding problems. To those who says it is impossible to feed the world this way I disagree (for many reasons you can find in other places on the forum), I'm happier now moving an electric fence each day in the fresh air than I was wading through 40,000 birds picking up the dead ones, thinking about the journey the soya has made to feed them.
judith

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
I agree, but why are the general public, who all claim to want free range natural foods not buying lamb, but they are buying broiler chicken by the billion? You could have bought a whole fat lamb a couple of months ago at Perth mart for 20.00. Rolling Eyes


They are buying chicken because they believe it to be "healthy". Lamb is red meat and therefore "unhealthy".
Rob R

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
I agree, but why are the general public, who all claim to want free range natural foods not buying lamb, but they are buying broiler chicken by the billion? You could have bought a whole fat lamb a couple of months ago at Perth mart for 20.00. Rolling Eyes


Politics. Both Government and industry.
mochyn

Does anyone use or know of a no-soya, non-gm feed for pigs and/or poultry? I'd really like to find one, as well as a non-factory farmed dry cat food.
Rob R

mochyn wrote:
I'd really like to find one, as well as a non-factory farmed dry cat food.



Hmmm... How do you make dried cat food? Rolling Eyes
mochyn

Rob R wrote:
mochyn wrote:
I'd really like to find one, as well as a non-factory farmed dry cat food.



Hmmm... How do you make dried cat food? Rolling Eyes


I hope you're not being facetious, young Rob...

I've tried the cats on tinned stuff and they hate it! There must be an alternative out there, somewhere...

I'd love to be able to grow enough for the pigs, bu twe don't have enough land and I can't afford to buy more...
cab

LynneA wrote:
I'm tempted to have another go at growing some this year.

Anyone suggest a variety that will germinate AND grow in the UK?


I've never tried, but I'm told that someone on our allotments did okay with a variety called 'ustie'.
Rob R

Nope, I'm thinking of making our own dog/cat food but I hadn't considered the dried stuff, until now.
Green Man

Well why does our government legislate for environmentally friendly, humanly reared food if that is not what the people want? Let U.K. farmers produce foods to the same low standards as the rest of the world so that they can compete financially on a level playing field. (This is partly said tongue in cheek) but hopefully you will understand my sentiment. Either that or ban sub standard imports.
Green Man

mochyn wrote:
a non-factory farmed dry cat food.


Have you considered Burns cat food? http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/
Rob R

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
Well why does our government legislate for environmentally friendly, humanly reared food if that is not what the people want? Let U.K. farmers produce foods to the same low standards as the rest of the world so that they can compete financially on a level playing field. (This is partly said tongue in cheek) but hopefully you will understand my sentiment. Either that or ban sub standard imports.


Both points I agree with, we are in a wishy washy middle way that doesn't benefit producers or consumers, it does, however, benefit some very large companies- so why rock that particular boat?

I surprised most of my course when I answered our economics tutor that the best thing for British farmers would be the scrapping of all subsidy- the main reasons the pig, poultry & dairy have become so intensive is a direct result of arable, beef & sheep being subsidised- that differential between market & production will always be skewed by support.
Rob R

But, getting back to soya, regardless of the energy that goes into growing, harvesting & transporting the stuff I think of the issue in the same way as that of nutrient transfer in a field of cattle- by consuming in one place & crapping in another nutrients can become depleted/in excess in different areas of the field (water troughs & feeders most commonly, also in sheltered areas). Think of the world as one big field & you have exactly the same net effect with soya imports Sad
Green Man

But I thought farmers are not subsidised for production any more. They get ever decreasing payments for looking after the countryside etc. Question
Green Man

Rob R wrote:
But, getting back to soya, regardless of the energy that goes into growing, harvesting & transporting the stuff I think of the issue in the same way as that of nutrient transfer in a field of cattle- by consuming in one place & crapping in another nutrients can become depleted/in excess in different areas of the field (water troughs & feeders most commonly, also in sheltered areas). Think of the world as one big field & you have exactly the same net effect with soya imports Sad

You mean we get all the crap? Wink
Rob R

It's been a while since my economics class Wink

Subsidies have created this situation over 60 years though, we can't expect it to be reversed immediately, and they haven't gone yet. Quotas are on their way out too but they've still left a diasterous effect in their wake...

Interesting triple meaning there hadn't thought of that Laughing

(Of course if you are looking at it from an organic farmers poin of view crap = black gold, so another meaning to add to the list Laughing )
mochyn

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
mochyn wrote:
a non-factory farmed dry cat food.


Have you considered Burns cat food? http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/


Thanks for that, CKR: I'm looking at the site now. I got a feeling my local vet stocks Burns.
RichardW

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
But I thought farmers are not subsidised for production any more. They get ever decreasing payments for looking after the countryside etc. Question


Yes but they also get ever (well for 10 years as each year the payment shift 10% from historic to land) increasing area payments.

Justme
Rob R

Justme wrote:
Cho-ku-ri wrote:
But I thought farmers are not subsidised for production any more. They get ever decreasing payments for looking after the countryside etc. Question


Yes but they also get ever (well for 10 years as each year the payment shift 10% from historic to land) increasing area payments.

Justme


Unless you're like us & started claiming just after the reference period for historic payments, in which case ours dropped down to 10% in year one & are now climbing each year (And it's over eight years).
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