| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| gaztafari |
Sugar in the bottle?Hi there everyone......taking advice from earlier threads, I have a kit of 'Geordie' bitter ( I asked my OH to get me 'Edme' but Wilko's didn't have any in so she came back with this!) I am starting it today but reading the guide it says to add a half teaspoon of sugar to the bottle after fermentation. I remember reading an earlier thread and Gil recommending beginners NOT to add sugar to the bottle...I am confused. But thinking about it, the 'big' brewers couldn't be adding sugar to all those bottles surely? So how do they retain the sparkle in beer?I am also going to use a beer enhancer instead of sugar with my Geordie kit....whaddya think. |
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| Jamanda |
The big brewers carbonate in the same way as making pop. By bubbling CO2 in under pressure. | ||||||
| alice |
I always use kits that include sugar in the bottles and have never had a problem as a result. I use glass bottles, either crown cap or the re-usable grolsch type and I haven't had an explosion yet (touch wood  ) even with a lively brew.
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| Treacodactyl |
Commercial brewers that bottle condition their beers, i.e. allow fermentation to carbonate them, can either bottle the beer before it's finished fermentation or add sugar/malt to the whole batch and then bottle.
You can bottle the beer before it's finished fermenting but for a beginner getting the timing right to ensure a pleasantly fizzy beer rather than a flat beer or a blown bottle might be quite hard. I've added sugar or malt to the bottles and bottled the beer when it's more or less finished fermenting. I'd suggest following the recipe or adding half a teaspoon per pint should be fine, don't be tempted to add too much I can assure you that three teaspoons in a Grolsch-type bottle can result in the bottle exploding and leaving glass embedded all over the place! |
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| gaztafari |
Thanks for that guys.....I'm just off to the home brew shop in Kidsgrove (Thanks Alice  ) to buy some sterilising stuff and where I'll no doubt be persuaded to buy my next kit before I've even started my first!
I know it should probably be a new thread, but any tips on cleansing/sterilising. Products etc? I used a Youngs 'all in one' steriliser & cleaner for my Elderflower Champagne, but again, reading old threads I have become confused...should I use sodium metabisulphate or bleach or what?????? 
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| alice |
I use Bruclens to sterilise, simply because the brewshop owner said it wouldn't rot the rubbers on the resealable bottles like some other stuff does. I make sure the bottles and equipment are clean using soap and water first, then dunk in a solution of Bruclens immediately before use. Had no problems so far.
The best advice I can give is to simply clean your bottles thoroughly as you empty them, then there are no nasty surprises lurking in the bottom when you come to re-use them. I have found the modern kits are foolproof - I just follow the instructions to the letter. |
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| mark |
i highly recommend any beginner to use a pressure barrel instead of bottling
it has a pressure release valve so is safer. It involves loads less washing up draught beer usually comes out better than bottled. You don't have loads of bottles all over the place. You don't have all the hassle of decanting off the yeast. Finally , and most significantly, no-one can count the empty bottles on the draining board and see how much you have drunk! mark |
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| Treacodactyl |
The problem I've found with a barrel is you have so much to drink when you start it. I could get one with all the pressure and CO2 gear but I don't think I've got the room. I have got a 2 gallon barrel which I use for Christmas brews etc and IMHO it does taste better from a barrel than a bottle.
As for sterilising, I use campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite) but as alice mentions if ensure you wash your equipment well after you use it then it's much easier to clean and sterilise when you need it next. |
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| gil |
I don't remember advising beginners not to add any sugar to the bottles - just not to add more sugar than the instructions on the kit say you should (as TD says, exploding glass ain't good).
Half a teaspoonful per pint, or a 'scant' half teaspoon per each of those metric 500ml bottles. Using a small funnel to get the sugar into the bottle is handy - otherwise I end up with sugar scattered all about the kitchen, in addition to all the beer I've slopped around. I generally put the bucket up on the worktop, and siphon into bottles on the floor, either on newspaper, or on a plastic tray. Tip for not filling your bottles with loads of froth (cos the beer will foam as you bottle it) : try angling the beer so it spreads out a bit as it goes into the bottle (like angling a glass when pulling a pint). Geordie bitter kit will be fine - I've used them plenty of times. |
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| mark |
the main thing when adding sugar to bottles is to make sure you are not bottling early while their is still residual sugar in the beer . This aint so likely with kits - but a trap for the beginner if using slower fermenting specialist sugars or attempting a home mash - is to forget that their are different types of sugar that ferment at differnt rates - so adding sucrose to existing slower fermenting sugars can double dose it - BANG |
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| gaztafari |
Gil....the quote is from a thread dated June 2005. A long while ago and here it is:
c) If you want stronger beer, instead of reducing the amount of water you add, you can add an extra 8oz / 1lb of sugar to the bucket ferment. Burst bottles result from newbie brewers trying to make the beer stronger by adding more sugar to the bottles. This is a BAD move. I have perhaps misinterpreted and I apologise. Will it have the same effect if I use beer enhancer in place of sugar and then add half a teaspoon of sugar at bottling? I am not adding sugar to get stronger beer necessarily, just to create a bit of sparkle. What would it be like if I was to add no sugar at all on bottling, bearing in mind I will be using enhancer? Would it be too flat? Thanks for the fast replies people. Mark...I like the point you make about all those incriminating bottles lying around. Not too sure how I will be approaching this yet. I'll have a price up of pressure barrels.
Is it possible to get a little pump action going on with a pressure barrel...just like in the pubs...that'd be coool. 
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| Treacodactyl |
What Gil means is if you want to increase the alcohol content then add extra sugar, or whatever, during the initial ferment. The priming sugar, added when bottling or barrelling, is to create CO2 for preserving and adding fizz and not to increase alcohol. It's fine to add priming sugar but not too much or things go bang!
I'm not sure what 'beer enhancer' is but if you follow the instructions you should be ok. I assume you just wait for the initial fermentation to end before bottling as normal. |
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| Chez |
We always stick a quarter tea-spoon of sugar in the bottles before crown-capping them.
Sterilising - I usually wash everything in very hot soapy water and stick the bottles in the oven for a bit. I only use bruclens or campden tablets if I can actually see anything disgusting growing in the buckets/bottles. When I store empty wine demijohns, I stick an inch of bruclens solution in the bottom and bung them. |
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| gil |
Not at all. I apologise, as my ancient post that you quote wasn't clear. What I meant was that newbie brewers (esp teenagers/students) should not try to up the strength of the beer in the bottle, but if you want a stronger brew, you should add more sugar to the bucket [which is safe to do]; it ferments out to give more alcohol in the beer, and you can then continue when ferment is complete as per kit instructions, including the half teaspoon in the bottle (to add the fizz). It is absolutely fine to add half a tsp of sugar to the bottle. But not more. That's all you need to get the sparkle. The beer itself is done at that point in respect of its alcohol content. |
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| James |
I bottle before the end of fermentation.
I'd agree that this comes with experience, and I would'nt do this unless you know what your doing. I've never had an explosion, but its very, very annoying when your beer is so active that 1/3 of it spews all over the kitchen floor, then it takes half an hour to pour out the other two-thirds of a pint. however, (for the record) there are three distinct advantages to the 'bottlig early without added sugar' method: 1) you calculate your desired OG at the start, and there are no further amendments during brewing, so you know exactly what %ABV you're working to. 2) The ale spends less time in the brew bucket. Most infections & off flavours occur in the later part of the open fermentation. By minising this period, you minise the risk of off-flavours. 3) Its quicker. If I add asugar, this is how I do it: (useful if you have a spare brew bucket): 1) Dissolved 20 tsp sugar in the the smallest amount of boiling water possible. I've never measures this, I've just dribbled boiling water from a kettle into a warm pan (on the stove) in which I dissolve the sugar. 2)put this sugar syrup into a (sterilised) brew bucket that has a tap attached to the bottom. 3) syphon your beer into the second brew bucket, in so doing, you're mixing the sugar equally into the beer. 4) Put the full bucket next to the kitchen sink so the tap is just over the sink. 5) push an 8 inch length of syphon tube into the tap 6) Put the syphon tube into a bottle (within the sink) and turn the tap on. The tube shoud sit towards the bottom of the bottle, so it wont foam up much. 7) fill to near the brim. By the time you take the syphon out, you'll have a decent head space. This method is much faster and less messy than syphoning each bottle, and it ensures every bottle has exactly the same amount of priming sugar which is already fully dissolved so is rapidly fermented. |
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| Sarah D |
1/4 teaspoon granulated sugar per pint bottle before filling. | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
Ahh bless. 
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| gaztafari |
Thanks again for the sharing of knowledge people.......The hydrometer has read just over the red line (not sure of the numbers ) for three consecutive days now so I am presuming fermentation has stopped and I can go ahead with the next step.
I have gone for the pressure barrel technique. Regarding priming sugar then? Going by what folk have recommended e.g. half a teaspoon per pint bottle, would you say for a 40 pint barrel then 20 teaspoons of sugar in the barrel would be OK? By the way, it tastes not too unpleasant and I again presume that in the barrel the beer will improve? |
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| mark |
it certainly wil improve. amont of sugar in barrel not as critical as most have pressure relief valve - couple of oz is fine |
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| gaztafari |
Cheers for that Mark.....I didn't manage to barrel the beer last night, will the sterilised barrel still be OK tonight. Or will I need to re-sterilise everything? | ||||||
| gil |
At some point, I measured out 20 teaspoons of sugar onto weighing scales, and found it weighed 3oz in total. Now I just use 3oz per batch, dissolved in 1/4pt of boiling extra water, and cooled a bit before adding
Anyone else do it this way ? |
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| mark |
i'd resterilize - but it depends on lots of stuff.
Did you sterilise and then rinse - if so no steriliser left on it just takes a tiny fruit fly to land with vinegar bug on the surface and you are stuffed If you left it coated i sterilser - the it depends on what sterilisr and how strong you made it a thin film of sulphite would lose potency overnight - if you left it imersed it'll be fine - and ther's every stage in between. Remember if you have no tsteriliser and you simply wash very thoroughly you'll probably get away with it 90% of the time - its the 10% that's heart breaking mark |
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| gil |
I'd second Mark's comments. | ||||||
| mark |
i just spoon in what looks like a "palm full" it aint critical mark |
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| gil |
Maybe more critical in glass bottles, which is what I use. | ||||||
| mark |
oh definitely - i was talking about in a barrel ! |
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| rhyddid |
Re: Sugar in the bottle?
Just adding a little to what other people have already suggested... If you're new to homebrew/bottling try bottling in used 2ltr pop bottles. You can test the carbonation then simply by squeezing the bottle. |
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| gaztafari |
Well...I've done it now. All kegged up and ready for......how long? at least 5 or 6 weeks? the longer the better I imagine eh?
What about the temperature for storage of the keg? I put it in the coolest place in the house for the moment. Dunno what temperature it is though....I'll put the thermometer in there later and get a reading. Rhyddid...I put some of my Elderflower Champagne into plastic pop bottles and I know what you mean...they went rock hard, when I touched the bottle it was a bit like when you blow up a balloon and think it's about to burst. At first I thought the bottles were losing liquid until I tried to pick one out of the crate they were stored in....the bottles were pear shaped!!!!!! Tastes nice though
Some very helpful comments everyone...thanks a lot, I'll keep you posted on how it turns out. Meanwhile.....I'm wondering what project I can do next
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| gil |
Dunno about kegs, but I put my newly bottled beer somewhere reasonably warm, but not that warm (in the kitchen cupboard under the sink) for a few days to encourage the secondary fermentation to get the sparkle. Them if I can be *rsed, I move them to the pantry which is cool. However, the 2nd fermentation will stop when the sugar has been used up, or when the pressure in the bottle airspace stops the ferment. Sometime I just leave them under the sink.
I wait 2-3 months before drinking. I reckon that's a good length of time to aim for - beer is nicely mature/rounded by then, however inexpensive the kit. So you want to end up with a constant stream of ready beer, so you need a backlog. Get another batch on soon ! |
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| gaztafari |
Gil said..So you want to end up with a constant stream of ready beer, so you need a backlog. Get another batch on soon !
Nice one Gil ...I will heed your advice well.
Next time I'll try in bottles to compare with the barrel. |
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| happytechie |
the barrel will be drinkable in two weeks, better in three. I've heard tell that they start to deteriorate after that. They will last about 3 - 5 days after you start drinking if you let air in (like a pub does) them or 2 -3 weeks if you add CO2 to the barrel as the beer comes out (like most home brewers do). | ||||||
| gaztafari |
happytechie........can you just expand on the CO2 please. I saw the capsules, a bit like the old Soda Stream thingys from the 70's, in Wilko's but I assumed they were for wine making  Does it keep the beer 'alive' or something. More importantly...if I want to keep the beer in the barrel for a lot longer than 3-5 days, (I mean....I like a drink as much as the next man/woman but 40 pints in less than a week )....will I need to invest in more equip?
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| mark |
The basc plot is this. If you let the pressure of Co2 above the beer reduce so when you draw of f beer air bukbles back in to the beer you wil have air rather rthsan pure Co2 above the surface of the beer it wil start to deteriorate and go off in a simlar way to leaving an open glass of yesterdays beer out (though not quite as quick).
So one way or another you need to maintain that pressure of CO2 above the beer so it can come out of the tap without air bubblong back in. One very traditional way is to a mash slowly so you have lots of slow fermenting sugars in the beer in the barrel - this means if you don't drin too quicckly they ferment at a pace to keep the pressure even. Another way is to open the barrel to let air in at the top and polish it off at a night at a party or what ever... at least the gas isn't sucked out the beer by a vaccum above in that case. Another way is to drink toil you lose the pressure - the open the top of barrel - add another oz of sugar - leave it a week to ferment and clear again then start supping again. The other way is to add gas Co2 or Co2 and nitrogen mix for soothflow beer (not as fizzy and a finer bubble structure gives the smoothe taste . AQ final way is to put bee into polypins - it can be dispensed as out of a winebox but the last bit wi be a bit flattish. All options are opne to the home beermaker. You chose what fits your needs! mark Another way |
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| happytechie |
beer goes off because the oxygen in the air oxidises it, plus there are bacteria inthe air that thrive on beer. Think of the taste of a beer that's been out overnight. The CO2 fills the barrel and stops air getting in. It also pressurises the barrel and keeps the beer fizzy. Even real ale in pubs has the barrels topped up with CO2 as the beer is pumped out. If you don't add something other than air the beer will go off. | ||||||
| rhyddid |
It will go off given time, however, if there is sufficient turnover of ale, there is absolutely no need for co2. |
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| happytechie |
you are of course absolutely right . Real ale is even better if dispensed by gravity with a soft peg in the keg. But you'll need to drink it in 3 days imho |
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| Jamanda |
What is sufficient though? |
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| happytechie |
At the bar in Sheffield Uni we sometimes put little barrels of guest ales in a rack over the bar for gravity dispensing for a friday night. If they were not empty by Sunday they were discarded. They are still drinkable after that but not really saleable imo | ||||||
| mark |
I agree with happie techie - drink the lot in 3 days or find a way to dispense without admitting air oxidised beer is yuk (ie beer left exposed to air) and worse than carbonated beer mark |
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| gil |
I'd recommend starting to save / find bottles for your next batch.
It's a PITA capping them, but they will keep, no probs. |
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| gaztafari |
Excellent...I think I have got my head around the concept of CO2/air getting in/oxidisation etc. Please remember I am a total newbie to brewing and I apologise if I am coming across a bit behind the door ( which I am in a sense!). I may need a little more explanation so please have patience.
If I now go for the option of adding CO2, I assume it gets forced in through the spout on the pressure barrel lid via one of those capsules I have seen. I also assume there is a mechanism for delivering the CO2 into the barrel? And lastly...how much more expense for a CO2 deliverer thingy me bob??? Although, Marks suggestion of drinking till the pressure goes and then add more sugar and leave to ferment and clear, sounds a good option. As I mentioned very early on, there is only me drinking this so the longer I can keep it for, the better. I suppose in the end it's all down to which way suits best eh. And it's a lot of fun experimenting
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| gaztafari |
Or Gils recommendation to put it into bottles sounds like a bit more hassle...cleaning bottles, capping etc, but sounds the way to go if I want to keep the beer for a long time.....my belly will be bursting after I've digested all this food for thought | ||||||
| alice |
I would recommend bottling. Once capped, each bottle can sit in your 'cellar' until you are ready to drink it. No hurry. Like money in the bank
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| happytechie |
my barrel has a lid on it that has an adaptor for a soda stream type CO2 bottle. When I drink I add a squirt of CO2.If the beer stops coming out under pressure at an point add a bit more gas. I've never used the little bulb things but I guess you just empty a whole on in there when you need more pressure. You will get fizzy beer as a by product, the less pressure you have the less fizzy it is but the more often you have to add Co2. Look up partial pressure if you want the science | ||||||
| rhyddid |
As a matter of interest, where do people buy their soda stream cylinders |
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| happytechie |
I get mine from the home brew shop of http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/ fame. It's not the same cilender asyou use for a soda stream just 'like' one. It's an exchange scheme like a calor gas bottle and about £3 a refill or £13 for a new bottle. Personally I have two of the hamilton bard barrels and they seem fine. I'm tempted to try and get a bigger brewing bucket and to 40 pints to the barrel and 40 bottles from a double kit brew next time when I get back from womad |
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| gil |
But can you lift a brew bucket with 80 pints in ?
6 gallons is about my safe working limit (48 pints), without spillage/dropping danger. More than that and it would have to involve pumping equipment. |
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| mark |
best plot is standard home bree adapter as sold d by home brew shops for the soda stream type cylenders they wil also sell you.
Buy whatever they keep in stock co s then its easy to gey a refill when you opicjk up your other home brew supplies. Nice too is the midgit widget system as they supply cyclinders with nitrogen in as well s pure Co2 so you can produce beer with the texture of Caffreys or Draft Guinnessor other commercial "smooth" bitter all of which use a mixed CO2/ nitrogen dispense, mark |
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| happytechie |
I doubt it, I can move a full 80 pint barrel but not lift it. Mind you I only have a 40 pint brew bucket! Just put the next lot on for bottling, norfolk nog this time,yummy |