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Nell Merionwen

sustainable/organic/fairtrade palm oil

your thoughts?
Midland Spinner

Is there such a thing?
is there an alternative which doesn't come from so far away & doesn't have the issues?
Nell Merionwen

Is there such a thing?
is there an alternative which doesn't come from so far away & doesn't have the issues?

http://www.rspo.org/en/who_is_rspo
there are huge companies trying to make the production of palm oil more sustainable and kinder to the planet.
However, many of the larger users of palm oil don't bother to attempt a sustainable source.
It's a bit of a minefield to be honest.
I'm reading up on it as we speak. Palm oil is one of the nicest to use but it is also one of the most complicated in terms of being kind.
Nell Merionwen

the far away issue unfortunately is across the board in cosmetics. Very little of the oils and butters are come from indigenous sources. The best I can do is make sure they are as organic/natural/fairtrade as I can.
Unfortunately until our climate drastically changes (and lets hope it won't) I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place on that issue.
sally_in_wales

any better options on the coconut oil front? Last time I looked, which was admittedly a while ago, it was a little easier to get fairtrae coconut oil than palm oil. I prefer coconut myself in soaps and potions, but everyone is a bit different in their preferences.
Midland Spinner

Speaking personally, I've heard such horror stories about Palm oil and the effect that its harvesting has on the environment, that I'd be wary of using anything that has it in, even if I were assured that it was sustainable (not because I don't trust you or other producers of cosmetics, but because I don't trust the big businesses that harvest the stuff to be truthful about their practices - in the same way that local food shops aren't to blame if it turns out that the burgers they bought in good faith turned out to have horse meat in them).
earthyvirgo

Suggest getting in touch with Jacha Potgeiter (his wife owns The Alpine Cafe in Betws y Coed).

He's passionate about this 'issue' (has been to Borneo and spent time at the O U Foundation) and did a series of amazing paintings of the animals to raise funds.

I'll try and get some contact details for you Nell.

EV
sally_in_wales

its true that one reason I decided not to use it in my soaps at all was because people at large have such firm opinions about it that I felt if I did use it I'd spend more time explaining the sourcing than I would actually selling the product
Nell Merionwen

Speaking personally, I've heard such horror stories about Palm oil and the effect that its harvesting has on the environment, that I'd be wary of using anything that has it in, even if I were assured that it was sustainable (not because I don't trust you or other producers of cosmetics, but because I don't trust the big businesses that harvest the stuff to be truthful about their practices - in the same way that local food shops aren't to blame if it turns out that the burgers they bought in good faith turned out to have horse meat in them).


I'm still undecided on the palm oil front. I think if it is used it will be in a minority of products if at all. I've e-mailed a few suppliers to get more information about their sources and a few skincare "experts".
I am a bit loath to over use coconut oil across the board as I'm not a big fan of coconut. To be more ethical then virgin coconut oil should be used but it is the refined type that has less scent.
Embarassed earthyvirgo

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alpine-Coffee-Shop/219129634772560?fref=ts

This is their FB page Nell. You might find some useful info amongst the Cafe stuff

EV Midland Spinner

But not everyone dislikes coconut Very Happy Nell Merionwen

its true that one reason I decided not to use it in my soaps at all was because people at large have such firm opinions about it that I felt if I did use it I'd spend more time explaining the sourcing than I would actually selling the product
I was chatting to BA about it and the general outcome was that if I was going to use it then the fact that is a web based shop would work if there was a whole page dedicated to my own research and out come, informing customers.
I'm still unsure though. Nell Merionwen

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alpine-Coffee-Shop/219129634772560?fref=ts

This is their FB page Nell. You might find some useful info amongst the Cafe stuff

EV

That's fantastic EV Cool Thank you so much x Nell Merionwen

But not everyone dislikes coconut Very Happy
But I know a good many who do. I would also be reticent to make products that all had a slight scent of coconut. It kind of narrows the product range. Nell Merionwen

any better options on the coconut oil front? Last time I looked, which was admittedly a while ago, it was a little easier to get fairtrae coconut oil than palm oil. I prefer coconut myself in soaps and potions, but everyone is a bit different in their preferences.
Have you had a look at akoma? I've not bought from them yet but am leaning in that direction. I have had it recommended to me. Rob R

I'd say that using palm oil could loose you a significant part of your target market, in much the same way that it's taken 20 years for the British to get over veal. Midland Spinner

But not everyone dislikes coconut Very Happy
But I know a good many who do. I would also be reticent to make products that all had a slight scent of coconut. It kind of narrows the product range.

good point. Very Happy Nell Merionwen

I think you are right.
A and I have talked and talked about it and the reason I posted it here was to get more opinions and to be fair you have corroborated my own. Nell Merionwen

Well after more looking into it and conversing I have decided I am actively not going to use it.
In fact I have used any money I would have spent on the ingredient to adopt a wee little cutie, Chocolate sally_in_wales

But not everyone dislikes coconut Very Happy
But I know a good many who do. I would also be reticent to make products that all had a slight scent of coconut. It kind of narrows the product range.

What coconut oil are you using? None of the stuff I get for soapmaking smells of anything at all Nell Merionwen

But not everyone dislikes coconut Very Happy
But I know a good many who do. I would also be reticent to make products that all had a slight scent of coconut. It kind of narrows the product range.

What coconut oil are you using? None of the stuff I get for soapmaking smells of anything at all
I've used refined oil up until now, so no smell. However, if I changed to unrefined it would have a slight coconut "flavour".
I think I will just give it a whirl and see if it is evident in the finished product.
I will report back Laughing Midland Spinner

On a scale of 1 - environmental catastrophe I'd put refined coconut oil way way ahead of even sustainable palm oil. Nell Merionwen

 Merionwen palm oil update Hairyloon

I'm glad you have resolved the issue because I'm not seeing how any of the relevant certification addresses the question of how much rainforest was destroyed to create the sustainable, organic, fair-trade palm plantation... Nell Merionwen

I'm glad you have resolved the issue because I'm not seeing how any of the relevant certification addresses the question of how much rainforest was destroyed to create the sustainable, organic, fair-trade palm plantation...

that was very much the point I ended up making Smile Hairyloon

If we start by terraforming a desert to create a plantation, do you think that would be satisfactory? Nell Merionwen

What's your point? Hairyloon

What's your point?
Wasn't trying to make one. I was just wondering how to grow palm oil that we all agree is kosher. Wink Nell Merionwen

What's your point?
Wasn't trying to make one. I was just wondering how to grow palm oil that we all agree is kosher. Wink well clearly we can't hence the decision not to use it. Hairyloon

What's your point?
Wasn't trying to make one. I was just wondering how to grow palm oil that we all agree is kosher. Wink well clearly we can't hence the decision not to use it.
Am I getting paranoid, or do you seem defensive?
I thought we were in agreement that that is the right decision, so I'm baffled to why you should be.
But we (the species) are entirely capable of reclaiming the desert if we have a mind to, and the sooner we find that mind the better. Nell Merionwen

What's your point?
Wasn't trying to make one. I was just wondering how to grow palm oil that we all agree is kosher. Wink well clearly we can't hence the decision not to use it.
Am I getting paranoid, or do you seem defensive?
I thought we were in agreement that that is the right decision, so I'm baffled to why you should be.
But we (the species) are entirely capable of reclaiming the desert if we have a mind to, and the sooner we find that mind the better. not at all, I am confirming that we are agreeing Smile Midland Spinner

But we (the species) are entirely capable of reclaiming the desert if we have a mind to, and the sooner we find that mind the better.

Not so sure - I have a nasty feeling that if we managed to change the layout of vegetation on the surface of the globe to that extent it would have a major effect on the weather systems. Not necessarily a bad effect, but a major one, certainly. Re-vegetating an area the size of the Sahara or Gobi would cause huge changes in air currents, atmospheric moisture, sunlight reflection, water run off, cloud formation, wind speed etc etc.
If you look at the serious effects we've had from the (minor compared to that) changes we've already made, I'm certain that we don't want to deliberately mess about with something as large as a desert without fully understanding what we are doing. sally_in_wales

Deserts have pretty delicate ecosystems, and whilst I've seen some beautiful small reclaimed plantations around oasis in Saudi, they were small enough that if abandoned the desert reclaimed them quickly. I wouldnt much wish to see larger sections reclaimed when it means complicated desalination plants and extensive pumping systems for irrigation and a constant fight to maintain soil ph, fertility and condition as the high evaporation rates leach the soil nutrients out and crystallise them. mochyn

Farming the desert really isn't a good idea other than in, as you say, tiny oases. Hairyloon

Not so sure - I have a nasty feeling that if we managed to change the layout of vegetation on the surface of the globe to that extent it would have a major effect on the weather systems.
Blimey. How fast do you think we can do it?
Perhaps I should be flattered at your confidence in me, but I was thinking it'll take hundreds of years, so we'd best get started on it. Nell Merionwen

Not so sure - I have a nasty feeling that if we managed to change the layout of vegetation on the surface of the globe to that extent it would have a major effect on the weather systems.
Blimey. How fast do you think we can do it?
Perhaps I should be flattered at your confidence in me, but I was thinking it'll take hundreds of years, so we'd best get started on it. chop chop Smile Midland Spinner

It's taken us a couple of hundred years to work on changing the climate by burning fossil fuels, but I'm not sure that I'm grateful to my ancestors for starting the job without fully understanding the consequences.

Best wait & use the resources we have properly first (enough food IF?) Hairyloon

Deserts have pretty delicate ecosystems...
So? They have about six lifeforms per square mile.
We have caused the deserts to expand by several million square miles, destroying the habitat of untold billions of organisms.
Why not reverse that a bit?
Quote:
I wouldnt much wish to see larger sections reclaimed when it means complicated desalination plants...

What is complicated about a desalination plant?
Quote:
extensive pumping systems for irrigation...

No, we don't need extensive pumping systems. As suggested earlier, we just need to change the weather.
Quote:
and a constant fight to maintain soil ph, fertility and condition as the high evaporation rates leach the soil nutrients out and crystallise them.

If you are fighting with nature, you are going about it the wrong way. Once you have established a canopy of vegetation, it will massively reduce the evaporation from the soil. Hairyloon

Blimey. How fast do you think we can do it?
Perhaps I should be flattered at your confidence in me, but I was thinking it'll take hundreds of years, so we'd best get started on it. chop chop Smile
Hold on there... we have a dissenter.
They might be right... Hairyloon

It's taken us a couple of hundred years to work on changing the climate by burning fossil fuels...
We started on deforestation much much earlier than that...
Quote:
I'm not sure that I'm grateful to my ancestors for starting the job without fully understanding the consequences.

They did not set out to change the climate. They set out in the blind pursuit of profit and the climate change was an unintended consequence of that.
Quote:
Best wait & use the resources we have properly first (enough food IF?)

We are currently at, or possibly well beyond the natural carrying capacity of the planet for the species.
If we wait before addressing that fundamental problem, then there will be an almighty population crash.
It is like charging headlong at a wall. Once you've spotted the wall, the sooner you put on the brakes, the less hard you are going to hit it. Ty Gwyn

Farming the desert really isn't a good idea other than in, as you say, tiny oases.

To be fair to Hairloon,it has been done centuries ago,and is being done at present,
Egyptian potatoes,there are vast area`s of reclaimed desert,admit as Sally mentioned,they are irrigated on a large scale from underground aquifers,were boring rigs drill down to pump the water.
Just like oil reserves,when these aquifiers do eventually dry up,the land will no doubt revert to desert,similar to the ancient civilisations who once farmed these now desert area`s. mochyn

I'm not saying it hasn't been done Ty Gwyn, just that perhaps it's not such a hot idea. Ty Gwyn

I'm not saying it hasn't been done Ty Gwyn, just that perhaps it's not such a hot idea.


Put it this way,maybe someone said it was not a good thing to drain the Fens all them years back,but look at the food that area has produced since. Hairyloon

I'm not saying it hasn't been done Ty Gwyn, just that perhaps it's not such a hot idea.
But without giving any valid reasons. Nell Merionwen

I've just been having a fb conversation with the Alpine Coffee Shop. They have been really friendly and helpful. I am resolved! Thanks EV x mochyn

Some years ago the old chap was sent ou to Qatar to advise on establishing a date plantation in a desert are. His conclusion was that, despite the date palm being more tolerant of saline conditions than most other plants, the plan was not sustainable. Hairyloon

Some years ago the old chap was sent ou to Qatar to advise on establishing a date plantation in a desert are. His conclusion was that, despite the date palm being more tolerant of saline conditions than most other plants, the plan was not sustainable.
I think we need to think bigger and longer term... jamanda

I've just been having a fb conversation with the Alpine Coffee Shop. They have been really friendly and helpful. I am resolved! Thanks EV x

Excellent news Very Happy It's nice to see it all coming together. Nell Merionwen

I've just been having a fb conversation with the Alpine Coffee Shop. They have been really friendly and helpful. I am resolved! Thanks EV x

Excellent news Very Happy It's nice to see it all coming together.

Today's brain bleep has been easter related. Chocolate has fantastic skincare properties. Cool jamanda

I know from places like Lush and the body shop that I am odd, but I really don't want my toiletries to smell like food. Flowers yes, but not edibles! Mint being possibly the only exception. Nell Merionwen

we have
Turkish delight massage bar
Chocolate mud body mask
Vanilla chocolate or turkish delight lip balm
Choc orange body scrub
Spiced chocolate shower soap. jamanda

Nope. Not my cup of tea. Actually green tea might work. Nell Merionwen

I know from places like Lush and the body shop that I am odd, but I really don't want my toiletries to smell like food. Flowers yes, but not edibles! Mint being possibly the only exception.

fortunately many do Laughing
the floral vintage range is coming together too.

So far there is a rose day cream
rose night cream
Lavender/ rose/ jasmine bath bombs.
freesia body wash. chez

As a complete aside, as I can't see you have mentioned them anywhere, lilies and carnations make me think of funerals; it's odd what scents trigger in our brains, isn't it? Nell Merionwen

As a complete aside, as I can't see you have mentioned them anywhere, lilies and carnations make me think of funerals; it's odd what scents trigger in our brains, isn't it?

carnations make me think of weddings but you are right regarding lilies. I also find the smell a bit cloying (sp?) jamanda

Rose is good, and lavender. How about parma violets? Nell Merionwen

Rose is good, and lavender. How about parma violets?

Violets are on my list too. I love them!

what about a parma violet inspired lip balm or body wash? Or perhaps violet body whip (like butter but looser and fluffy) Midland Spinner

Rose is good, and lavender. How about parma violets?

Violets are on my list too. I love them!

what about a parma violet inspired lip balm or body wash? Or perhaps violet body whip (like butter but looser and fluffy)

You might want to re-name that - alternatively you might attract an unexpected market! earthyvirgo

I've just been having a fb conversation with the Alpine Coffee Shop. They have been really friendly and helpful. I am resolved! Thanks EV x

Excellent news Very Happy It's nice to see it all coming together.

Today's brain bleep has been easter related. Chocolate has fantastic skincare properties. Cool

Croeso.
Glad you managed to make contact with them.

EV Nell Merionwen

Rose is good, and lavender. How about parma violets?

Violets are on my list too. I love them!

what about a parma violet inspired lip balm or body wash? Or perhaps violet body whip (like butter but looser and fluffy)

You might want to re-name that - alternatively you might attract an unexpected market!

I didn't name it Smile body whip is body whip...just as soap is soap. Laughing
But I may call it something else. It has the texture of creamy marshmallowy fluff...suggestions? mochyn

How about Hamamelis (witchhazel)? One of my favourite scents. The flowers, not the medicinal thingy. Nell Merionwen

How about Hamamelis (witchhazel)? One of my favourite scents. The flowers, not the medicinal thingy.

That would sit nicely in my botanic range.
I also want to get meadow sweet in there at some point.

I've just had an idea.... Hairyloon

what about a parma violet inspired lip balm or body wash? Or perhaps violet body whip (like butter but looser and fluffy)

You might want to re-name that - alternatively you might attract an unexpected market!
Customers are customers... Wink earthyvirgo

How about Hamamelis (witchhazel)? One of my favourite scents. The flowers, not the medicinal thingy.

That would sit nicely in my botanic range.
I also want to get meadow sweet in there at some point.

I've just had an idea....

A lot of the winter flowering shrubs have good scents.

Daphne.
And Winter box.
And in Dad's garden at the moment, winter flowering honeysuckle which is gorgeous.

EV Sally Too

I am so looking forward to seeing all these products come online Nell!

The crowdfunding it a sort of advertising too isn't it!

I can see I might even be tempted by another little donation now, as there'l be so many of your products that I'll want to try..... Cool Nell Merionwen

Be my guest Cool Laughing Nell Merionwen

How about Hamamelis (witchhazel)? One of my favourite scents. The flowers, not the medicinal thingy.

That would sit nicely in my botanic range.
I also want to get meadow sweet in there at some point.

I've just had an idea....

A lot of the winter flowering shrubs have good scents.

Daphne.
And Winter box.
And in Dad's garden at the moment, winter flowering honeysuckle which is gorgeous.

EV
Indeed.
It also encompasses all those lovely phytonutrients Smile although I would have to look into box as it's poisonous so it is probably not such a good idea. Nell Merionwen

I am so looking forward to seeing all these products come online Nell!

The crowdfunding it a sort of advertising too isn't it!

I can see I might even be tempted by another little donation now, as there'l be so many of your products that I'll want to try..... Cool

on a similar note...don't forget to poke friends and rellies! Make sure they secure your goodies by investing too! It's rather self serving in a way Laughing Sally Too

Done! A little gift to myself! Embarassed Nell Merionwen

Done! A little gift to myself! Embarassed

Cool Nell Merionwen

Just £25 from the four figure number. It's quite nerve wracking... mochyn

Daphne is definitely poisonous but the box in question is Sarcococca not Buxus. Not sure about the oils of either.
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