| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| marigold |
Tax the rich!Oh no, here's a much better idea: tax the poor.
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| jema |
This is one of the subtexts of the minimum wage, increases in it, save the government a ton of money.
Not that I am arguing against increases in the minimum wage, in fact I'd argue for a large increase. |
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| vegplot |
Not too large. You'd have even more job losses as industry moves work overseas. |
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| jema |
Most low wages are in the service sector, and you can't pop to China for a Pizza.
The core cost of manufacturing is generally more about investment in automation rather than people costs, and where it is about people costs those jobs have largely long gone. |
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| Brownbear |
You would get more dignity in the workhouse than behind the counter at a burger joint. Not even Dickens suggested the Victorian poor were required to grin like chimps on mescaline all day and learn the 'mission statement' by heart. | ||||
| Penny Outskirts |
It's odd looking at this as an employer though. If there was a really significant rise in the minimum wage, then we just wouldn't have any staff at all  . Costs are rising so much, we just had our business rates for next year through, nearly £800  (and just in case you may have thought that was quite cheap, that's a month, not a year!)
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| marigold |
Too much smiling is bad for you http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3338458.ece |
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| jema |
I think you have put your finger on a point though, the amount you pay as a shop is determined by what can be squeezed out of you by the landlords, if some of your other costs go up, there would be pressure on things like the rates to get more reasonable. Plus of course as everyone else feels the same increases, then to some degree costs can be passed on, and last but not least the kid at the burgher joint may be popping in to buy a t-shirt he could not afford before he got a pay rise. |
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| Treacodactyl |
I'm not sure how you've brought landlords in to it, business rates are paid to the council. If rises are just passed down the food chain then there would be no reason for raises. |
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| jema |
The council in this case surely is the landlord. | ||||
| sean |
Errm I don't think so, that's Penny's rates not her rent. | ||||
| Helen_A |
Eeek! Penny that's an awful lot of Tshirts
I'm suposed to be going to look at various premises next week... I think that I may reassess... Sticking with mail order, internet and homeworking could be a sensible move
Helen_A |
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| Penny Outskirts |
No, the centre is owned by Canada life - we pay them the rent and service charge, which is a heck of a lot more then the rates  . The £800 a month to the council is just business rates.
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| Penny Outskirts |
And that's just the rates - you should see what they want to put our service charge up to, and we've just started negotiations for the upward only rent review - it's all good fun 
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| jema |
Ok, all the same though, it is all about pressures, the shopping center would rather I am sure reduce rents that have empty slots. | ||||
| Penny Outskirts |
Nope - there are empty units all around us, and they are screwing everyone. They're sharks!! |
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| Pilsbury |
our local shopping center is about 25% empty as the rents are so high, and they keep them there and do short leases to fairly flakey shops. |
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| jema |
I am talking in generalities here, not about squatorange specifically, but as I recall you saying once there were local alternative premises and at the end of the day the shopping center won't prosper if they force their retailers out with excessive rentals. |
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| Pilsbury |
But there is always someone to pay sky high rentals and sell cheap chinese tat at hugely inflated prices for 3 months then bail out. | ||||
| boisdevie1 |
Why should we tax the rich more? I'm not rich but I don't see how it can be fair to levvy a higher percentage rate of income tax on the rich. Most of whom have worked long and hard to make that kind of money. My ex wife for example, probably earns 60k a year because she's worked long and hard to get where she's got. So why should she pay a higher rate of tax? If she pays the same rate as everyone else then she still pays more than somebody on a lower salary. | ||||
| Rob R |
They have more disposable income (and as an aside; tend to be less sustainable), which keeps taxes down at the other end of the scale. | ||||
| jema |
People with less disposable income tend to pay more of their money out in tax by various other means as well.
Taxes like car tax, fuel taxes, vat etc all hit poorer people. |
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| Northern_Lad |
Do you mean that it hits them more as a percentage of their income? |
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| jema |
yes. |
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| vegplot |
That's very true for large automated businesses. 9/10 of business in the uk is smaller than 25 people. Raise the minimum wage and it has a huge effect on economy. In a well run buisness where employees have an 'ownership' or feel they belong to a business would rather have a job with security albeit at a low wage than none at all. This doesn't excuse employeers from exploitation which is where I see you're coming from and from that view point I entirely agree with you. earthyvirgo and I pay ourselves below the minimum wage so in effect we're breaking the law. 
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| Treacodactyl |
I still don't agree with this. What tends to happen is as wages rise then most other costs will rise. The council will have an increased wage bill, unless you want to start cutting jobs and services, and the landlord could easily have to increase rents. |
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| Rob R |
Which is what my previous thread about is efficiency good? The more we rely upon technology to do people jobs, the fewer of those jobs there are. A horrible vicious circle which funnels the benefit of any business down to fewer individuals each with more money
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| vegplot |
Are you saying that you'd perfer a people business where profits are not the top most requirement? If so, that's the way I like to see business run. Take family run small farms, most of the employees take home well below minimum wage. However, if they were to become employees they would have to be paid minimum wage and that business would more than likely fail. Having said that minimum wage is a useful tool to ensure greedy exploitative employers don't go driving around in Lexus' while employees have barely enough wages to feed themselves. |
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| Rob R |
Yes, my point being that if we didn't have that 'more efficient/cheaper is good model' in place, then we wouldn't need minimum wages because everyone would be more in control of their own economies, supplying the needs of the people. Keeping those people employed, instead of having to tax the rich to support for the people who have been displaced by the 'efficient' technology (which in itself usually involves relying more heavily on depleting resources), would seem to me, a better idea. It seems that jobs that bring in money are the higher paid ones, whereas jobs that are necessary but don't contribute as directly to income increases (such as cleaning) are even more devalued and consequently people don't want to do them while employers don't to have to pay to have them done. |