nats
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That my Church didn't signup to become FairTrade accredited?I submitted a motion to the AGM yesterday, which I couldn't go to unfortunately, and it was withdrawn. And replaced with something which said that FT Tea and Coffee would be served at all Church Meetings on Church premises (Or so I am led to believe as I haven't see the exact wording yet.) So we now can't become accredited and show the way to all the community groups who use our buildings. The message we give is "it doesn't really matter that much" WELL IT DOES. Apparently, people who host church meetings in their own houses can't be told that they must serve FT beverages at them - that would be an imposition...  We impose other morals... I think this is a moral issue and it certainly does matter to the farmers Now I get to wait a year before I try again... Grrrrrrrrrr   
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boisdevie1
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What. You're expecting the church to take the moral lead? Perhaps you should ask them to sell off all their buildings and give the money to the poor.
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Jonnyboy
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Re: That my Church didn't signup to become FairTrade accredi | nats wrote: | | FT Tea and Coffee would be served at all Church Meetings on Church premises |
Look on the bright side, it's a step in the right direction. And sometimes the little steps work better than one big one.
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Brownbear
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Re: That my Church didn't signup to become FairTrade accredi | nats wrote: | | Apparently, people who host church meetings in their own houses can't be told that they must serve FT beverages at them - that would be an imposition |
Perhaps you should find out who these backsliders are and follow them around shouting at them "I'm better than you!".
That would teach them.
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MarkS
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You could always find another church.
Plenty around and they're all right.
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Stacey
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No-one should be told by any commitee what they can and can't serve in their own homes 
As long as it's legal of course 
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jema
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I doubt people here are 100% solid behind the "fair trade" label. I know I am skeptical of it, and would not accept the imposition that I have to provide tea with a particular label.
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Brownbear
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| jema wrote: | | I doubt people here are 100% solid behind the "fair trade" label. I know I am skeptical of it |
Quite right too. Making a point of buying 'fairtrade' ('hey - I didn't cheat anyone out of money for this - aren't I great?') is like making a point out of not burgling houses. You're supposed to be honest in the first place.
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nats
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I'll admit that fairtrade is not perfect. But I do think that it is a lot better than some of the alternatives - although not all.
The point was not what people serve in their own homes, but what people serve AT OFFICIAL CHURCH MEETINGS in their own houses.....
(children needing stories reading...)
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Stacey
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| nats wrote: | I'll admit that fairtrade is not perfect. But I do think that it is a lot better than some of the alternatives - although not all.
The point was not what people serve in their own homes, but what people serve AT OFFICIAL CHURCH MEETINGS in their own houses.....
(children needing stories reading...) |
Does the church provide the tea and coffee? If so, I kind of see your point. Still, I wouldn't take kindly to being told what to serve by anyone
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Jamanda
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This may be a daft question - but why would an official church meeting be in someone's house? Other than possibly the vicarage?
Anyway - if the church provide the stuff, then I don't see the problem - they can provide FT stuff, and as Jonnyboy says, one step at a time and all that. If people are expected to provide it I think it unreasonable to dictate what they are allowed to serve. If cakes are provided with this tea, is there a policy that they are only baked with free range eggs?
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Kinnopio
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I'd be pretty shocked if my church started to lay down laws as to what could and couldn't be served in my own home - I agree that in general it's a moral issue that Churches should be addressing but feel it should be an educative approach not one of laying down the law. How open is your church about you talking about the issues to the other churchmembers or geting the churchleader to maybe incorporate into a sermon why thinking about what we buy is an issue that all churchmembers should take seriously?
You've got me thinking now about whether I should push some of these issues in my church 
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Kinnopio
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| Jamanda wrote: | This may be a daft question - but why would an official church meeting be in someone's house? Other than possibly the vicarage?
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My church takes place in a school and therefore many church meetings take place in peoples homes etc. Not all churches have fancy buildings!
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nats
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Sorry - I was out last night after story time!
We have many meetings outside of the official buildings. House groups, committee's, planning meetings, they all tend to meet in houses as it is often more convenient.
I think my feeling is that is better than non-fair trade, and that we dictate all sorts of rules for these meetings, and I don't see why this shouldn't be one. I also agree that if necessary the Church should purchase the coffee and tea - price can be a problem for some people - but I don't think that this is a huge problem to be honest. Surely if a Church was a temperance church they wouldn't go along with wine at a Church meeting in someone's home?!?!  (Just for the record - I wouldn't dream of going to a temperance Church  )
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vegplot
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There's always water. Are these people in it for the tea and coffee?
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dpack
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the "church"was the instigator of many wars and oppressions ,a major investor in slavery in america and carribean ,the south and central american genocides with the spanish,the colonisation of africa etc etc so perhaps the ethics of third world exploitation are a bit beyond the current flock
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Brownbear
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| dpack wrote: | | the "church"was the instigator of many wars and oppressions ,a major investor in slavery in america and carribean ,the south and central american genocides with the spanish,the colonisation of africa etc etc so perhaps the ethics of third world exploitation are a bit beyond the current flock |
Yeah, but at least all the slaves who were worked to death, whipped to death for being black in an offensive manner, or hanged for learning to read, were accorded a Christian burial. You don't have always to look at the negative side.
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Helen_A
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There are plenty of groups out there that do specify 'fair trade' for meetings in peoples homes. Some go so far as to have a 'coffee box' that goes along to those meetings so that the volunteers aren't left buying it themselves if they fundamentally disagree with FT.
Started in the days before N*&^%$ had a 'fair trade' brand as a gentle way around the N*&^%^ issue.
Helen_A
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nats
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Sorry - I recognise that I should have answered some of these posts a long time ago - been manic at home. I'll try before lunch break ends!
in no particular order....
We regularly have meetings in homes such as planning meetings (which are officially subcommittee's of the Church Council), house groups, prayer meetings, etc.
Eggs - yes I hate non-freerange eggs too, and won't buy them. But one step at a time?! Ideally we would protect animals and humans, but given an either or I'll go for the humans every time. It's where my passions lie. Someone else can push the eggs issue if they want. And I'll back them all the way. (In fact I'm hoping that we can stipulate that all food brought to Church do's should be in line with LOAF principles...)
Cost - FT isn't THAT expensive any more.... but I have no objections to the church (or committee members or whoever) subsidising where necessary. I don't think it will be necessary with our Church, but there you go.
Wars etc - general CR*P perpetrated by the Church. I know. I agree. We are guilty - hey I am guilty by association. I want to try and start to make some sort of amends. These things happened. They shouldn't have done, but we can't reverse history. What we can do is try and make the future better. Which is what William Wilberforce did, Martin Luther King did, what Desomnd Tutu continues to do, and what I am trying to do in my minute way. That's not to diminish the horrors of the past. Honest guv. Do you believe me? Probably not. ....
Kinnopio.... We already discuss it regularly at church actualy, My husband preaches about poverty and things we should be doing regularly, and I hope to be running a FairTrade stall on Christian Aid Sunday when we will be having a lunch as well (MUST remember to talk to them about LOAF principles and the lunch...) trouble is these things go over peoples heads. Real conversation. "Thank you for your husbands sermon (on FT etc) very interesting. We just buy Nestle at home because we like it. It is good coffee isn't it...." (while I am serving her one of several brands of FT coffee that she has chosen one from.) It drives me mad. What I want to do is raise the bar, and get it talked about more. Well I seem to have done that!
Oh and no one is trying to force anyone to drink the stuff when it is their own time. Only when it is a Church meeting.
Still, apparently it is going to be discussed at the next church council. Hubby and I are both on it and normally alternate because of children - maybe we will get a babysitter this time?!?!
Sorry it's rushed - lunch break isn't long in this prison....
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Stacey
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Why are animal welfare and human welfare either/or?
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Mrs Fiddlesticks
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| nats wrote: |
Eggs - yes I hate non-freerange eggs too, and won't buy them. But one step at a time?! Ideally we would protect animals and humans, but given an either or I'll go for the humans every time. It's where my passions lie. Someone else can push the eggs issue if they want. And I'll back them all the way. (In fact I'm hoping that we can stipulate that all food brought to Church do's should be in line with LOAF principles...)
Cost - FT isn't THAT expensive any more.... but I have no objections to the church (or committee members or whoever) subsidising where necessary. I don't think it will be necessary with our Church, but there you go.
Kinnopio.... We already discuss it regularly at church actualy, My husband preaches about poverty and things we should be doing regularly, and I hope to be running a FairTrade stall on Christian Aid Sunday when we will be having a lunch as well (MUST remember to talk to them about LOAF principles and the lunch...)
What I want to do is raise the bar, and get it talked about more. Well I seem to have done that!
Oh and no one is trying to force anyone to drink the stuff when it is their own time. Only when it is a Church meeting.
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Forgive me for quoting around your post but there are an awful lot of 'shoulds' in your ideology. Whilst the idea of promoting fair trade and ethical production methods are good and important, the minute you start insisting on things, folk will put the barrier down and dig in. You say there is no force on your part but then say above that you want to insist that only certain food will be permitted at social functions.
I applaud your passion and commitment to the food cause but it may be better to work on your husbands sermons so that folk want to provide fair trade coffee etc off own bat because its what they believe in rather than you making them.
And to be honest if someone is kind enough to offer their house and hospitality for a meeting then accept that with grace and enjoy the tea and coffee they supply - or offer to provide it for them.
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dpack
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every journey starts with one step
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Quail By Mail
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The last time I looked, Fairtrade-buying -- or not -- isn't actually one of the 7 Deadly Sins.
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Jonnyboy
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| Quail By Mail wrote: | | The last time I looked, Fairtrade-buying -- or not -- isn't actually one of the 7 Deadly Sins. |
Unfortunately that isn't the point. The point is that nats' conscience has led her to firmly believe that an organisation such as her church shouldn't support exploitive behaviour.
Many Christians believe that stewardship of the earth is more important than dominion, although as in all works of life many don't give a damn.
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gnome
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two equal sides to this arguement. on the one hand, it could be argued that if a church is not in a position to make a stand on a moral issue - who the hell is?
on the other hand, is Fair Trade genuinely helping to stamp out exploitation - or is it just a cynical exploitation of our willingness to be "right on" and PC?
i am a rather cynical and paranoid sort of person, and if something sounds too good to be true, then it probably isnt true. Fair Trade products have been around since the early eighties, and apart from costing more to buy, i don't see it making any real difference to the world. how do we know that the FT coffee we buy from the local supermarket is really benefitting the people that work on the land? "ordinary" products have lots of middle men taking a huge share of the profit, making sure that the people at the bottom of the pyramid get as little as possible - but if there were no middle men, and the people who process and market the product took a smaller slice of the cake, the farmers who grow it could get a fair price for the product, and it could still cost the consumer the same price. it is claimed that FT products cut out the profiteering middlemen - so why the need for a higher price?
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jema
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I recently posted a price check on fairtrade coffee that seems to suggest that these days at least for coffee most of the extra the customer pays should be making it through to the farmer.
But a few years ago I looked at the same thing and the maths did not add up very well then as far as I could see 
So maybe things have improved a bit with fairtrade making it something really worth doing? But I respect that anyone might well be skeptical about it, and not see it as a road they want to be forced down.
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Jamanda
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I buy fair trade when I can. Mostly from Suma. I don't doubt that there is a premium mark up on some of it, but I think it is becoming more main stream and the percentages are getting better.
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