| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| sean |
The Lie of The Land, 3/5 C4 9pmDocumentary by Molly Dineen about working life in rural Britain.Article in The Indie here. |
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| sean |
Arse. Forgot about it. Anyone got a recording? | ||||||
| Marionb |
I've been watching it.... not easy to watch..... been feeling sick since the beginning... 
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| Gervase |
Unfortunately this one doesn't seem to be repeated on More4 either. Bum. | ||||||
| NeathChris |
Absolutely brilliant, has helped show everyone the real world we live in. | ||||||
| Marionb |
Yes it was good in that it was honest.
But those poor calves..... thats whats really got to me. I dont mind seeing sick animals shot, but those calves had a life ahead of them and they had no chance to live it... just because they were born bull calves and they were the wrong breed. And they way he skinned that calf.... 
Its a good enough reason to make me drink less milk but I hardly touch the stuff anyway. There was lots of other stuff there too but after that beginning I only half watched it.... |
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| NeathChris |
Is a shame that bull calves are of no use. Farmers have it hard enough making ends meet hough, so to rear on a calf that will cost you more to rear than the end product will repay would only deepen the debt. Exporting was bnned, now reopend though so some can live some life there, myself i blame the animal rights tossers, they have led in part to some calves being shot by banning exports for a few years.
If we all bought british and didnt import meat then those calves would have a use. Please dont stop drinking milk though, it will only lead to more calves being shot as farms will have less money. |
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| Andy B |
I cant quite get my head straight with some country people, when they are doing well they are very dismisive of the views of townies and when doing badly expect us to come to their aid. After all, ultimatley we are the customer. Those that have realised that and connected with us are doing well.
I was reading an article in The Countryman ? About the state of farming and the jist of it was that Farming was in a terrible state and if nothing was done they would all be out of business within two years, and that although farmers could be accused of crying wolf in the past this was for real. I then noticed the date on the mag 1999, Eight years ago!!?? And yes the thing with the calfs was a terrible shame, but there is a growing ethical veal market in this country so why couldnt they go for that? As for the fox hunters, i am still waiting for the mass redundancies and wholesale putting down of the hunt hounds and horses as widly predicted before the ban. The last man in the program certainly looked as though he was well off so as though things might be getting harder he will never be short of a few bob. Their are plenty of people in this country from all manner of walks of life and professions who have had a hard time of thing, just look at how many jobs have gone abroad why should we expect farming to be different, its all been driven by market forces. We need a different way of living, because this one is driven by greed for money. |
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| Truffle |
Absolutely brilliant documentary….. good to see some realism on TV, I vote for more!
Truffle Grow truffles- www.PlantationSystems.com – Buy truffle trees |
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| Behemoth |
Admired the honesty of the programme and the backseat taken by the maker, allowing the subject to do the talking.
At the end though I was sharply reminded of the miners. An industry, community and way of life on the verge of great change/extinction. Can't decide wether there are parallels, coincidences or me making connections that don't exist. |
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| NeathChris |
Ok andyb i take it you have no issue with eating forein produced food. Beef from brazi that has bse and foot and mouth and very poor welfare standards and god knows what they have been fed or injected with. You dont mind eating infected meats then??
If farming dies so does the countryside. |
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| Behemoth |
Does it? What do you means by dies? Farmers are taking payments to maintain and manage the landscape. Agricultural changes in the past have changed the landscape manytimes. A period of change is always disturbing especially for those on the sharp end. |
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| NeathChris |
Would the countryside be the same with no cows, no sheep, just ovrgrown fields with a few ponies here and there? | ||||||
| Behemoth |
No, it would be different. But we are paying farmers to manage it for us so the question is what are we going to pay them to do with it, if mass food production is uneconomic. If we value open fields then they'll be asked to do that. Habitat creation, wetlands, woodlands etc . Perhaps the Guardians of the countryside could do that? Change is scary but not always bad. | ||||||
| gil |
One problem with bull calves off current popular breeds of dairy cow (friesians/ Holsteins) is that the breeds are great milk producers, but don't bulk up at all well for meat. Have you seen how bony a Holstein's backside is ? You could feed the calves and they wouldn't put enough weight on, probably even to veal size. To sort this out, we'd have to change back to the more traditional dual-purpose milk-meat breeds, which produce both, but less of each. Since high farm output was rewarded for so many years, farmers moved towards breed specialisation. We'd also have to change our supposed meat preferences : I don't know what a Friesian bull calf tastes like, but I should imagine it would differ from veal as we remember it. On the other hand, since few people have eaten veal for years, there's an opportunity to change consumer concepts on the back of the rise in ethical veal production, i.e. this is Friesian/other dairy bull calf veal : get used to it. |
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| pricey |
Fantastic program, I think the whole of the country should be made to watch it. | ||||||
| tahir |
Bum, bum, bum, bum. Please gis a heads up if it's ever repeated. | ||||||
| Cathryn |
Wonder if S4C get it a week later... | ||||||
| NeathChris |
Farmers are paid o "look after" the countryside, all that means is that you cant do this cant do that and dont put stock in this field. I think we should be rewarded for farming and producing more so than the onservation, a blend of both. Mass food production is econmic, 1000 head of dairy on slats, its the more conventional systems that are uneconomic. The way to make money is by quantity not quality, i feel it should be the other way around.
Semms like we dont care where our food comes from then, import it all. |
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| Behemoth |
That's what I mean - mas food production is a global market now. That's the reality. For our general economic benefit we've signed up to all sorts of WTO tragde agreements. We could pull out but trade works both ways and we'd have nobody to sell out high quality lamb and beef to.
Farming and the landscape as we know it has survived to this point through subsidies and now single payments. To compete against the mass food production means adopting the same methods or producing something different. That could be high welfare organic etc or a different approach. The general public 'values' the countryside and spends a lot of time and money there. If we value it so much then perhaps farmers should become landscape managers and that should be the requirement of the single payment. |
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| Treacodactyl |
Once the programme got going it did show what rural life can be like. The depressing thing is most of the farmers knew how stupid many of the UK regs are or have been implemented but seemed resigned to the fact it's just going to get worse. I think what one said summed it up, the regs are stopping the farming in this country so we are importing food from countries with worse standards and conditions. 
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| Northern_Lad |
By the looks of it you should be able to get it through http://www.channel4.com/4od for the next few days. |
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| bernie-woman |
No good for Mac users though - OH watched and gave me a somewhat sketchy review  - hopefully it will be repeated again
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| NeathChris |
Treacodactyl you summed it up. We arnt allowed or arent wanted to farm in this country, because people dont want to pay a little extra, so we buy in cheap rubbish from abroad with no traceability or checks on it. | ||||||
| tahir |
Sit at the PC watching it? Don't think so, any way of converting it to a DRM free format so I can stick it on a DVD yet? |
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| Behemoth |
Just to be provocative.... ....would our standards be higher without those regs? Like most industries, farming is generally moved to better practices with a pointy stick rather then the better nature of those trying to make the maximum profit. |
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| Northern_Lad |
Then hook your PC up to your TV.
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| Northern_Lad |
Probably not, but while we don't require the same standards for imports as for home produced it's unfair to simple compare on price. |
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| boisdevie1 |
Surely its down to farmers to get their act in order. It's no point them just bleating about how unfair it all is. They've got to influence the general public and pressure the government so that things change.
And presumably longer term farming is going to be massively changed when we run out of oil anyway. |
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| Treacodactyl |
If you measure the damage done to raise our food then I bet more damage is done globally, so you could argue the regs have made things worse. Quite simply, if you have strict regs here then any imported food should be compared against them rather than our country just export ill treatment and bad practices. |
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| Behemoth |
Agreed. So we should be working towards changing global practices for the better, through trade agreements etc rather than protecting economic self interest? |
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| Northern_Lad |
If the situation was "Do X, do Y and then Z"; yes, I agree. The current situation is "Make sure you do X, it's compulary to do Y, and Z will be judged on price alone".
Weel, yes. UK food will them become cheeper by comparison. We'll probably have killed the market by then, but, you know...
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| Northern_Lad |
'Twould be nice if the world worked that way, but so many people doing the negotiations have vested interests in the way things work that it's highly unlikly. |
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| Behemoth |
You mean farmers? 
I dopn't share your pessimism but I don't expect to see significant changes in my lifetime. |
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| Northern_Lad |
Not at all - if it was farmers then I'd expect all imports to be banned. The negotiations are usually done by people who want to retire in a year or two to the board of a multi-national. |
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| NeathChris |
Uk standards are and always have been fa higher than that in some other countries. Never mind ;ets all go and buy our foreign food produced at a lowwr welfare standard, but its ok, uk farmers dont do enough. I dont think uk farmers have time to do any lobbying or promotion with all the paperwor to do to appease the rule makers who dont understand practicallity. | ||||||
| hamster |
I agree. It is completely insane that we impose such strict restrictions on our own farmers, driving their costs and the price of meat up so much, that this creates a market for cheap imported meat, where the standards of welfare etc are much, much lower. Grrrrr. Also, I feel the mass food production global market debate always tends to come round to discussing economics and carbon footprints, and people ignore the simple fact that food that is produced locally and on a small scale tastes better and is better for you. (Andy B - the reason there hasn't been the mass redundancies or putting down of hounds and horses is that many people just ignore the ban and carry on anyway.) |
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| Jonnyboy |
there were 9 bull calves shot and dumped down the road from me recently.
The only way to eliminate this in my opinion would be create legislation where animals are given a mandatory minimum lifespan. Thanks for the heads up on 4od |
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| Behemoth |
So, should the public be made to pay more, directly or indirectly (through Gordon Brown's tax fetish) for their food and to keep farmers in their jobs? | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
No, but there should be increased tariffs on imports. and better animal welfare legislation. |
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| tahir |
PCs nowhere near t'telly.... |
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| Behemoth |
So rules and regs work to produce a better product or reduce rules and regs to produce.....more profit? Honestly - most UK farmers would produce food at the lowest cost possible if they could and welfare standards would be undermined. |
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| Behemoth |
But we can't impose tariffs without being barred from markets. Do we want free trade or an artifical market? |
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| Behemoth |
Move the telly? |
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| Jonnyboy |
Free trade is a load of balls in many cases. free trade allows us to turn a blind eye to human rights abuses, poor working conditions, animal and environmental welfare issues, and simply bleat on about the 'invisible hand' of capitalism. People argue for free trade when they already have a competitive advantage and want to exploit it. |
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| Andy B |
I know where every bit of meat i eat comes from, i know the butcher, i know where his farm is, i know the breed of animal, and if he gave them names i could probably find that out as well. But theres a lot of people out there who dont know and dont care and never visit the countryside and they are the people farmers need to connect with. |
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| tahir |
Absolutely, unequivocally the truth. BUT B has a point, the system as it stands doesn't allow us to impose our own punitive tariffs.... |
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| Jonnyboy |
Slightly unfair, we all know farmers who hugely give a damn about their animals welfare and operate at a less than optimum profit because of it. that they're in the minority would be hard to argue against. It's a three pronged approach - farmers who care, legilation for the rest, and consumer choice forcing the change. |
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| Jonnyboy |
That's a fair point, too often I argue on the merits of how things should be in an ideal world. 
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| Behemoth |
Fully agree. In any business there are people who wil cut costs and standards, hence the need for regs. When they also receive handouts of public money there also needs to be checks that that money is being distributed and used properly hence the need for bureacracy and monitoring. This is also the annoying consquence of a country that prides itself on demonstrable high standards backed up with enforcement. But when this is done there is a kick back from those under scrutiny who, possibly justifiably, say that there is too much regulation. Remove it and those without morals or scruples will cut costs and standards to make as great a profit as possible. Undermining the 'good' farmers just as Brazilian chicken producers do now. What I'm trying to say is that we can't just say that we're better we have to prove it. And that's a pain in the backside.= for all involved. |
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| Andy B |
Instead of setting land aside to do nothing they should be paid to farm it less intensivly, susidised to go organic. | ||||||
| gil |
AFAIK, under the recently introduced Single Farm Payment scheme which is based on acreage and not on headage, set-aside no longer exists (in the sense of being a means of attracting subsidy payments).
However, for conventional (non-organic) farms Various environmental management schemes have been in existence for several years (e.g. Rural Stewardship Scheme [RSS] in Scotland for the last 6 years, and the English equivalent), some of which involve establishment and maintenance grants for similar (but more environmentally oriented) actions, such as : - sowing fields of unharvested crops (sowing a mix of cereals, brassicas and leguminous plants, e.g. rye, oilseed, quinoa, wild clover) that can serve as food for insects, birds and small mammals - sowing species rich grassland (best not grazed - at least in early years - to allow proper establishment and seeding patterns to develop, and could be lightly grazed thereafter) - planting broadleaved woodland native to the area as shelter for birds, mammals, insects (or if the trees are spaced far enough apart, for farm livestock - cattle, pigs) - establishing / replanting multi-species hedgerows - upkeep of traditional field boundaries (drystance dykes etc), which serve as wildlife habitats and contribute to a sense of landscape and region You may also find Conservation headlands : areas at the ends of cropped fields that are sown with the main crop, but on which no artificial fertiliser or pesticides are used, providing a buffer zone between hedgerows and the crop These schemes are coming to a close, and although there will be replacements, the details are not yet available, at least in Scotland. The Organic Aid Scheme in Scotland was intended to act as an incentive for farmers to convert, in that it covered the loss of productivity during conversion period, and early years while the farmer established new markets for organic produce, which would then sell at a premium, making up for lower-intensity farming. |
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| NeathChris |
Organic is not the way for all, for some yes but for me i think its a wate of time, after buying organic animals i think they are of an inferior standard to conventional and more susceptable to disease or infection and carry disease and infection that you cant vacinate aginst.
jonnyboy wrote The only way to eliminate this in my opinion would be create legislation where animals are given a mandatory minimum lifespan. Who will pay to feed them and keep them? No one is going to keep a product worth nothing but put money into it just because someone says they have to for x amount of time. we need to be realistic! |
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| Andy B |
The reality is that people want cheap food, and why would organic animals be of lower quality than others? |
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| NeathChris |
I have have bought in batches organic pigs to finish for a butcher. For there age they are always alot smaller and more susceptable than conventional. Same goes with sheep, they always take lot more time to finish, so to me that is lower quality stock. | ||||||
| gil |
Depends on the breed as to whether it is smaller for its age. Traditional breeds tend to be smaller and to grow more slowly, as do purebred animals. That's why new or cross-breeds were developed : to fatten faster and be larger. I wouldn't say that an Aberdeen Angus or a Herdwick were inferior breed. Nor a Tamworth, come to that.
Organic stock sent for finishing (as with much stock for finishing) will come from farms where the climate and/or pasture are not of good enough quality for them to fatten (e.g.hill farms) As to more susceptible to disease : such animals will have been kept under an organic animal health plan, which aims at prevention of disease. They will not have been routinely vaccinated, as there is less need for this with organic flocks. Hence if they come into contact with diseased stock on a convnetional farm, they will become ill. That's what you would expect to happen. It has also been observed that stock moved off holding are more prone to illness. Whether this is stress, contact with 'foreign' germs that they are not used to, or a different climate/location... |
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| Behemoth |
Perhaps you should view them as a different product? |
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| NeathChris |
They have been here to be finished/grown on, i always find organic to be smaller and longer to finish, just my expierience. Organic is a whole different debate though. I personally can honestly i taste no difference in organic to well managed conventional meat. | ||||||
| Northern_Lad |
I don't think you will detect a difference between organic and well managed conventional, as the taste comes from how they've been reared and fed, not what chemicals have been thrown at them. The organic ones (as I understand it) should have been looked after to a minimum standard, so if the WM ones taste the same then that's good. It's just a preference not to dope the beasts - you wouldn't live your life on anti-biotics, so why should the animals. |
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| NeathChris |
Antibiotic growth promoters are banned here now for pigs. Many big units are trying to come to terms with farming without them. | ||||||
| gil |
Conventional poultry farming is still premised on the routine use of antibiotics, and although organic poultry farming does not use them routinely, they are still significant.
There are moves in Denmark towards farming without antibiotics at all...
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| NeathChris |
Even for the treatment of ill animals?
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| lassemista |
Tahir - I have the programme on DVD RAM if you can play that. I haven't finished watching it yet, but can lend it to you if you are still stuck. Just send the disc back when you are finished (will have to make sure OH doesn't record over it before I hear from you)
Andrea. |
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| tahir |
Thanks Andrea, unfortunately I ain't got a DVD ram player (that's one of them cartridge ones isn't it?) | ||||||
| Cho-ku-ri |
Great, but sad documentary. Pitty it was on so late and on 4 as many that should have watched it, won't have seen it. | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
just watching it on 4od, 15mins in I'm feeling really sympathetic for the guy they are with. there's obviously no great amount of money in his life, and he sounds institutionalised by a countreyside exisitence. When i saw the calf killed I felt anger towards us pathetic consumers. | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
"we weren't brought up to do this(kill calves), it's pure economics now" | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
Excuse me for quoting parts as they come to me, still watching..
'Defra don't consider food security an issue, in other words they don't care where it comes from (uk or abroad)' |
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| lassemista |
Tahir, the disc looks like any other. It played in a friends non-RAM DVD player. I think it just depends how flexible the player is. Your welcome to try if you've not sorted it elsewhere.
Andrea. |
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| tahir |
Wicked. I'll PM you. |
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| Andy B |
That was the really scary bit, food security must be one of the most important issues facing any country. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Not only Defra, the present and past governments admited it is not a prioroty. Mrs Thatcher is quoted as saying when asked the future of U.K. farmers " They haven't got one' and that was over fifteen years ago. How right yet wrong she was. The pre WW2 Liberal Cheap Food Policy broke U.K. farmers backs and we vowed as a nation for it never to happen again. Tarrraaa its happening in front of our very eyes.  but this time it is not just food, it is coal, gas, clothing, and all manufacturing. 
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| Nick |
Not quite all. We still make some of the best weapons in the world.
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| tahir |
2nd biggest manufacturer in the world, who said we don't make anything anymore? "fighting fascists in the southern seas, saw one today and in his hand was a weapon that was made in Birmingham...." |
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| Andy B |
Very true, just need someone to test them on. |
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| Behemoth |
Food security in the context of England (forget scotland they're off to ipoverish themselves), Europe, Nato, Nafta, WTO etc? I don't think nation state solutions apply anymore. Some countries have never had and will never have food security. They are quite rich though. | ||||||
| tahir |
Agree |
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| Nick |
I think, in practical terms, we need island based food security. Both in production quantity/quality, production standards and bio-safety. We, at least, have the oceans on our side when it comes to protecting ourselves, in many ways. | ||||||
| Cho-ku-ri |
I thought I heard the £470m gun that our army currently has, and hates, has many of its components outsourced? | ||||||
| tahir |
It may well have but BAE is still the largest non US defence contractor |
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| boisdevie1 |
I expect when all the oil runs out then food security will become quite a big issue. And that's when societies based on 'service industries' will have big trouble. Perhaps now's the time to move to New Zealand where they can feed themselves. | ||||||
| Cho-ku-ri |
Scotland can be self sufficient in food if it wants. We have a tiny population compared to the South East of England, there are more people in London than the whole of Scotland with its 100,000's of acres of food producing countryside. For those of you that think food security means nothing, just think how useful a financial based economy will be when the £/$ has crashed and we are all starving. Without food we are nothing. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
So we assemble the guns. I wonder if we pay Polish people to do that for us? |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
I've heard, because of their steep slopes and lack of lakes, N.Z. is heading for water unsustainability. It currently has its fastest rising population spurt with people comming from around the world and China in particular. |
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| Behemoth |
I said 'impoverish' not 'starve'. |
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| Cho-ku-ri |
Don't worry, the S.N.P. didn't get enough votes to do that just yet.
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| tahir |
Absolutely. Many thanks to Andrea for sending me the DVD, totally awesome programme |
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| Andy B |
The only problem with your argument is that you have all those londoners who wont sit there and starve, they will migrate straight onto your patch, then your as stuffed as the rest of us! |
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| Nick |
And, as we've seen, we got access to guns! |