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tahir

Tricky footpath situation

Yesterday I noticed some people cutting across from one footpath to the other, about 300 mtrs away, I went and spoke to them asking whether they knew that they were not following the public footpath. One of the party replied "Yes, I've been walking this way for 30 years", I'd assume as a pre-emptive strike:

Ramblers wrote:
In legal theory most paths become rights of way because the owner "dedicates" them to public use. In fact very few paths have been formally dedicated, but the law assumes that if the public uses a path without interference for some period of time - set by statute at 20 years - then the owner had intended to dedicate it as a right of way.

A public path that has been unused for 20 years does not cease to be public (except in Scotland). The legal maxim is "once a highway, always a highway".

Paths can also be created by agreement between local authorities and owners or by compulsory order, subject, in the case of objection, to confirmation by the Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, or the National Assembly for Wales.


We had a long chat about what we're doing with the land etc, it turns out that he's a local councillor and wants to get someone from the Parish Council round to do a little piece for the newsletter.

I didn't raise the issue of the footpath, what should I do? Obviously a councillor saying that he's walked that way for 30 yrs will probably be useful for those wanting to get a new footpath between the two others....
sally_in_wales

Hmm, I suppose the biggest issue is whether walkers using this 'new' route will do any damage to your plans for the land. If not, it might be best to delineate a route that accepts that people have and will walk that way and be seen to be friendly and accomodating whist simultaneously making it clear that you have shown clearly what the acceptable route is. If the route could compromise your plans, then its another kettle of fish.

Footpath disputes always seem to get messy, I recall one footpath sign near my parents that had the official 'Public Footpath' bit then in very small letters added by the farmer 'if you can climb under the barbed wire fence...' Never pleasant, and in my opinion worth working with the locals if at all possible.
cab

Difficult one. Depending on where the new footpath would be (and how well used it is), you might be best off allowing it; better for getting on with the neighbours, and it at least allows you to lay down a route and keep people to it.

I've seen whole housing developments re-thougth because of this sort of thing; if you don't have to fight this, do you really want to?
cab

sally_in_wales wrote:

Footpath disputes always seem to get messy, I recall one footpath sign near my parents that had the official 'Public Footpath' bit then in very small letters added by the farmer 'if you can climb under the barbed wire fence...' Never pleasant, and in my opinion worth working with the locals if at all possible.


I've certainly cut wires where someone had intentionally blocked off a footpath (mini toolkits are so useful, you know). As you say, these disputes can be really messy.
tahir

cab wrote:
if you don't have to fight this, do you really want to?


Nope, but as far as I can tell very few people are actually doing this, most just seem to wander around the fields that the footpth runs through. Should I preemptively take steps to turn this into a permissive footpath?

Quote:
Other paths, known as permissive routes, are open to the public because the owner has given permission for them to be used: often there is a notice on the path making clear the owner has no intention of dedicating the path as a right of way, and reserving the right to withdraw the permission. These paths are sometimes closed for one day a year, with a view to preventing claims that they are rights of way.
cab

tahir wrote:

Nope, but as far as I can tell very few people are actually doing this, most just seem to wander around the fields that the footpth runs through. Should I preemptively take steps to turn this into a permissive footpath?


I'd be tempted to do that. Keeping the locals onside when you're new in the area by giving them a new footpath might be sensible. Depends. 'Course it also means another corridor full of dog poo.
tahir

cab wrote:
I've certainly cut wires where someone had intentionally blocked off a footpath (mini toolkits are so useful, you know). As you say, these disputes can be really messy.


That's the thing, there are militants on both sides, the farmer who's been doing the bits and pieces that I've needed has an attitude of "they're vermin and should be treated as such" so have most people involved in farming that I've spoken to.

I want a peaceful and sensible way of dealing with this, but basically one that keeps dogs from crapping all over the place and people from littering, rabbitting or shooting air rifles (or worse) on my land (the danger signs off the electric pylons have been shot off by pellet attack).
Silas

cab wrote:
sally_in_wales wrote:

Footpath disputes always seem to get messy, I recall one footpath sign near my parents that had the official 'Public Footpath' bit then in very small letters added by the farmer 'if you can climb under the barbed wire fence...' Never pleasant, and in my opinion worth working with the locals if at all possible.


I've certainly cut wires where someone had intentionally blocked off a footpath (mini toolkits are so useful, you know). As you say, these disputes can be really messy.


You need to be a bit careful here. Firstly, you MUST make sure that you have a definitive footpath map, some OS are out of date. Second, ask yourself why it is blocked, if there is a crop and an alternative route has been offered, it is just bloody- mindedness not to take it. Thirdly, even if the footpath is blocked, it is not wise to damage the object that is blocking the path, even if it is just cutting through wires, you may be leaving yourself open to a charge of criminal damage ( and if you are wrong and the footpath map is out of date, criminal damage and trespass.)
cab

Silas wrote:

You need to be a bit careful here. Firstly, you MUST make sure that you have a definitive footpath map, some OS are out of date.


Yup, did that.

Quote:
Second, ask yourself why it is blocked, if there is a crop and an alternative route has been offered, it is just bloody- mindedness not to take it.


Because that particular farmer was a git, there was a crop right there but only because he had ploughed the footpath, and there wasn't an alternative route that added less than a mile to the journey.

Quote:
Thirdly, even if the footpath is blocked, it is not wise to damage the object that is blocking the path, even if it is just cutting through wires, you may be leaving yourself open to a charge of criminal damage ( and if you are wrong and the footpath map is out of date, criminal damage and trespass.)


Indeed, that's a risk. And I certainly don't advocate wandering around with wire cutters and cutting any dodgy bit of fence wire you see. But there comes a point when its either take legal action or just cut the damn wires.

I'm not putting this forward as a boast or as any kind of suggestion that doing that is always a good thing, merely pointing out that sometimes it'll happen.
mochyn

We have public footpaths and bridle paths crossing our land and joining up in several directions. So far, they've been no problem, but we did once have to calmly point out to a couple of lads on dirt bikes that they didn't have hooves! They were fine, especially when they realized they wouldn't be able to get over the stile...

A nice chap came round a while ago from the footpath people (council or whoever) and said that they'd replace the gates on our footpaths, and if we were happy to do the work they'd give us the kits and pay for our labour! Still waiting though...

Our biggest problem is that one of the paths is the one that leads up to the pigs' field and you've never seen so much mud!
Andy B

Local councilers can be a law unto themselves and a pain in the arse, try not to get on the wrong side of them. Or do what a relative of ours did and get on the council.
tahir

Andy B wrote:
Local councilers can be a law unto themselves and a pain in the arse, try not to get on the wrong side of them. Or do what a relative of ours did and get on the council.


I might invite him round for a cuppa and see what we can see.
dpack

a path of mutual acceptability might be best .
a chat over a cuppa is better than years of trouble legal or not
tahir

dpack wrote:
a path of mutual acceptability might be best


Definitely what I'll try for
alison

Mochyn

We had the footpath gates and styles here. They didn't pay us, but the EU pay for half of the costs, so the council give all the gate, and you provide the labour fitting it.

Worked for us.
tahir

Turns out the gate that he used to cross onto the other path has been locked and has barbed wire top and bottom for the last 3 years.

(Spoke to the previous owners last night)
gil

So have the lock and barb been removed, and if so, by whom ?
tahir

The lock has been removed by us as there are so many people going up and down planting and stuff at the mo. the barb's still on there but if the gates unlocked...
Nick

Then put the lock back on. Now.

Live with that as the hassle. Not militant ramblers, or 23 caravans leaving trails of gas cylinders behind them.
gil

Seems pretty straightforwards then : replace lock after work completed, or replace now outwith working hours.
tahir

nickhowe wrote:
Then put the lock back on. Now.


Will do guv.
tahir

The only thing is that we'll have made an enemy of a local councillor...
Nick

One who's done two things already.

1) Lied to you.
2) Sought a position of power.
tahir

nickhowe wrote:
One who's done two things already.

1) Lied to you.
2) Sought a position of power.


Oh yeah, definitely.
Nick

And you're worried about upsetting him? Explain, if it comes to it, that you've been advised to lock gates to protect your land, the environment, prevent criminal activity, encourage use of footpaths and safeguard any livestock. If a councillor wishes to argue with any of those...
Behemoth

...stick his head on a pole and start a landed peasants revolt.
Rob R

cab wrote:
'Course it also means another corridor full of dog poo.


And all the nasties that come with it Evil or Very Mad


We have a footpath that runs through every field & in actual fact it should run through the neighbours yard & then back onto ours, but we just allow them to proceed on our side to save having two crossing points.

...but if I ever find out who vandalised the fence with their ****** wirecutters, I'll go round & cut through their tyres & see how they like the extra cost & inconvenience of replacing things unecessarily Twisted Evil When you are working to improve paths & access it can be very disheartening to find some people out there who seem to enjoy leaving gates open & fences down, for no other reason than laziness.
Behemoth

Have you signposted this unauthorised diversion? Wink
Rob R

Behemoth wrote:
Have you signposted this unauthorised diversion? Wink


Haven't seen anyone with their wirecutters hacking through the side of the neighbours shed yet Laughing
tahir

Behemoth wrote:
...stick his head on a pole


That does appeal...
dougal

Tahir

1 - take legal advice
2 - obtain proper (admissible) evidence for the previous locking of the gate. This may mean sworn statements, etc. (And that could be *plural* statementS.)
3 - you can pretend to the councillor that you understood him to say that he had gone that way "30 years ago" (not continuously for "the last 30 years") which is good for you to know, but sadly you intend to return the route to the closed status it has had for the period your evidence covers... that way you aren't accusing him of a lie, and you are providing him with a get-out. If he's smart he'll recognise those things. Of course you might prefer to try to get him to put his lie down in writing... I'm not suggesting that you might ever consider blackmailing a member of the local council, merely that you might find it helpful if he put it in writing...
4 - you might also extend specific permission (importantly for a defined period of time) to him and his immediate family (but emphatically not the general public) to use that route, if and when they should see that the gate had been opened by you (and not if the gate or lock should be broken or damaged). In that way, with permission (technically a "permissive license"), *he* shouldn't be able to build any "gained by long use" rights of passage. Let alone on behalf of the public.

But proper legal advice should be the priority.
tahir

Thanks for that Dougal, will talk to a lawyer but not too easy finding one with ROW knowledge.
tahir

I think what I'll do is to put the padlock back on and see if the lock is removed or I'm contacted by anyone. That'll ascertain whether anybody will be looking to gain rights of access won't it?
bernie-woman

tahir wrote:
The only thing is that we'll have made an enemy of a local councillor...


It is worth remembering that he is only one of many which should be on your local council - Is he a parish or district or borough councillor - if he is a parish councillor they have very little power that they can beat you with, a district/borough councillor on the other hand could have an influence on any planning apps coming up Smile
tahir

He's on the county council
bernie-woman

[quote="tahir"]He's on the county council[/quote

I would tread slightly carefully then especially if you want anything from like planning permission (if they are responsible for it) - not sure what it is like round by you but shropshire county council deals with education, roads etc whereby district or borough council deal with planning so you may be ok - we never see our county councillors at all but I know how petty they can be at all levels

None of this detracts from the fact he is a lying b*****d and you owe him nothing
tahir

He's prominent on the Parish council too, apparently he's an agitator for local people to be more aware of planning appliactions and the issues that surround them
dougal

dougal wrote:
... use that route, if and when they should see that the gate had been opened by you (and not if the gate or lock should be broken or damaged). ...

Just thinking about this, you should rather give him permission at *anytime* his way is not physically barred.
That way, he has no *long-term* incentive to damage the gate. He cannot access the route *without* permission, without admitting to criminal damage, so *he* cannot build any more rights. Either for himself, or the general public.
tahir

dougal wrote:
dougal wrote:
... use that route, if and when they should see that the gate had been opened by you (and not if the gate or lock should be broken or damaged). ...

Just thinking about this, you should rather give him permission at *anytime* his way is not physically barred.
That way, he has no *long-term* incentive to damage the gate. He cannot access the route *without* permission, without admitting to criminal damage, so *he* cannot build any more rights. Either for himself, or the general public.


I've found someone who says they can help (legally) I'll raise this with him, thanks.
bernie-woman

tahir wrote:
He's prominent on the Parish council too, apparently he's an agitator for local people to be more aware of planning appliactions and the issues that surround them


Oh... Rolling Eyes - glad you have got some legal help with this - better to be preapred for any battle - however, the previous owners are good witnesses to the fact that the gate has always been locked

Good luck
tahir

He told me to go and view the definitive plan of rights of way, just rang them, they're on strike Laughing
Treacodactyl

tahir wrote:
they're on strike Laughing


...don't get me started...
bernie-woman

Treacodactyl wrote:
tahir wrote:
they're on strike Laughing


...don't get me started...


me neither Laughing
sean

Mandy's school is closed to pupils today.
tahir

sean wrote:
Mandy's school is closed to pupils today.


Why? The footpaths people are striking over pensions
sean

A lot of the support workers are members of Unison.
Behemoth

OH has just called, her school was closed, she managed to get loads done without having the faff of having to teach those little things.

We appear to have wandered like a County Councillor. Confused
tahir

Behemoth wrote:
We appear to have wandered like a County Councillor. Confused


I don't think any of us have lied though...
sean

In this thread or ever?
tahir

sean wrote:
In this thread or ever?


Laughing
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