| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Rob R |
Well......does it?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7450627.stm |
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| dpack |
if old style tories become active for civil rights i know it is time to emmigrate | ||||||
| JB |
It's a bit of an odd one that, he's resigned but is then going to fight the by-election anyway? | ||||||
| cab |
I see that he had a majority of over 5000 at the last election. Sorry, but he isn't really fighting this by-election over the 42 day limit like he says, he's fighting it on the basis that the most unpopular man in the country could keep that seat against Labour at the moment. Put a blue rosette on Gary Glitter and he'd beat the Labour party in that seat.
Cheap political buffoonery - exactly what I'd expect of this cheap, political buffoon. |
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| Shane |
Surely the best way to fight for your principles if you are a senior member of the Opposition cabinet is to stay right where you are, vote as you see fit, and try to make a difference by campaigning.
Resigning means you lose influence and, more importantly, lose the power to vote according to your beliefs. Which makes me think he's fibbing and he's actually gone for entirely different reasons altogether. |
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| thos |
I thought an MP couldn't resign unless they got a job with the Crown (i.e. Chiltern Hundreds) or were convicted of one of a few specific offences. On the other hand they can cross the floor (like Churchill did), which would hardly be an option under these circumstances.
And civil rights are an issue consistent with High Tory philosophy, although I would not regard David Davis as a High Tory (Church and State, Pro-Corn Laws etc). |
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| JB |
Ignore that I've just listened to his statement and it makes more sense (even if you don't agree with his stated reasons it does have some rationale behind it) |
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| cab |
At the last election he was 11% above the Lib Dems, and 35% above Labour.
Pull the other one David, this is no kind of stunt at all. Had yours been a Tory-Labour marginal then you might have a point. This is just a pathetic publicity stunt, and one that presumably will cost us tax money to boot. |
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| JB |
It'll cost less than the £200 million Brown used to buy the DUP votes! (but yes it does seem a bit silly, I suspect the real reason is because it will probably be an easy win for the Tories and so helps add to a string of losses for Brown) |
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| cab |
Ahh, yes, the DUP voting for internment. How well they have learned the lessons of history 
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| hamster |
Someone said on 'The World at One' that the Lib Dems weren't putting up a candidate to oppose him for his seat. | ||||||
| Behemoth |
Nope. I wonder if Labour will bother, would leave him punching shadows and no debate to be had. Perhaps this is an opportunity for an independent "We're sick of You Lot" to stand and win? | ||||||
| JB |
Labour could choose to field no candidate, arguing that it's a safe tory seat and mid term so why should they waste money but it would send out a message that Labour has given up on having any electoral success and also deny them the right to claim when, as it will be, the bill is thrown out by the Lords that they are representing the will of the people against the unelected House of Lords. | ||||||
| Rob R |
It is pretty safe (if Lib Dems don't contest) but I think you underestimate him as a local politician. |
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| Brownbear |
Given that the entire 42-day debate is a stunt by the repulsive Gordon Brown in the first place, this seems a reasonable response. If Labout go on about the cost of organising an election, then one might point out that it will be about the same as employing about one and a half of their (roughly) million or so new public employees, for a year. | ||||||
| cab |
If he were my local MP I'd be writing him a letter berating him for this cheap stunt. I've got no idea how he is otherwise as a local politician, but I sure as hell would vote against him now. |
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| JB |
So you would rather vote for a Labour expensive stunt than a Conservative cheap stunt? Going back to the DUP votes for a moment. When, as I expect it will, the bill comes back from the Lords to the commons for a second attempt, if the DUP vote against it then would they still keep the £200 million? |
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| Rob R |
Why restrict yourself because he is not your MP? This is a national issue, surely? |
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| cab |
This guy resigning isn't a national issue; if my local MP decided to play silly beggars by using the electoral system as a tool like this, then I'd certainly not play his game, and I'd vote against him. Resigning in protest against something another party has done is a cheap stunt, and it would irritate me that my town would be used in such a way. As for what this does to my choice of who I'd vote for if there was an election tomarrow... Well, it ain't like I was going to vote Tory anyway. |
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| cab |
Neither are particularly appealing. |
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| JB |
So because someone who isn't your MP has resigned and you wouldn't have voted for him anyway and wouldn't have the opportunity to vote for him you have decided not to vote for him. Well that clears that up! 
He does seem to be playing sill beggars but what he's doing pails into insignificance besides what labour has done and I'd probably vote for him simply because I would under no circumstance want Labour to think they had my support on this issue. Sometimes you have to vote for the least worst option because the alternative is just too dire to contemplate. |
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| Rob R |
I kind of got that impression from your first post. The 42-day thing is a significant national issue though, if not the Lib Dems would not be reacting the way they are, and nor would Labour. (If you look at the election figures for 2001, they were only 1903 votes ahead of the Lib Dems). You'd not play his game but you'd vote against him? Surely that is playing his game (just not on his side). 
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| bernie-woman |
It is indeed a national issue but it seems the public seem to be in favour of the 42 day detention proposal as reported here |
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| JB |
this seems to suggest Davis has popular support. Certainly the majority of comments seem to be full of praise for him and the position he has adopted. | ||||||
| cab |
Well, quite. But in a similat situation, I'd be put right off any candidate who played this game.
Thing is, I'm not convinced that the Tories are any better. Their opposition to the 42 day detention thing... Is that really principled, or does the way they've twisted and turned on these issues (like the ID card) indicate more a kind of political opportunism than idealism? |
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| cab |
I'd choose to vote against an MP who did this, and I'd ensure that he and his campaigning team found out why. |
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| Brownbear |
"Oi, boss! That barmy bloke on the bike's out on the pavement again, shouting something and waving his arms about. Should I find out who his carer is?" |
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| vegplot |
Faith in the polictical system has ensure that almost everyone is cyncial about politicians or believes in a conspiracy theory of some sort it's hardly suprising there's such debate. Policiticians and civil servants start living the picture we paint of them. |
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| Behemoth |
If he is re-elected following his principled stand for liberty, does this mean that we can expect the tories to amend this bit of legislation when they get in power? Have they said that yet? I wonder how far their libertarian ideals will stretch? | ||||||
| Rob R |
As far as I understand it isn't a party decision but a personal one, although he has his supporters within the party. |
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| VSS |
even given the fact that he is almost certain to win, i think it takes a certain amount of guts to put your job on the line on a matter of principle.
there are not many people these days prepared to stick to their guns and stand up for what they believe to be right rather than letting themselves be steamrollered by the majority or more likely, those who shout the loudest. i have alot of respect for anyone who stands firm for what they know to be right. its not always comfortable but sometimes necessary to retain self respect. whether you agree with his views or not is beside the point. |
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| Behemoth |
But it will put Cameron on the spot:
"Do you support the principled stand of your shadow home secretary on this matter and what will you do about it if elected to Government?" "Um well gosh, I'd have to take a view on the situation at the time." "So you would support your Home Secretary's opinion" "Um Tory policy is ye to be formulated." "So you don't agree with him now?" "Well yes/no/help......" |
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| Rob R |
I'm inclined to agree with that. Behemoth: I don't know 
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| Behemoth |
It will be even more interesting to see how principled he is if the Conservative Government decides not to amend the act when they are in power. |
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| lottie |
It is just possible that at least 5% of our M.P'S have some integrity and he could just be one of them.
It is also possible to have a strong belief in and support for civil liberties while voting Tory. 
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| Brownbear |
Whatever happens in the byelection, Davies has lost his place in the shadow cabinet. Cameron won't forgive him for this - it shows that he, Davies, has the stones to act on conviction, whilst he, Cameron, lives by focus group, triangulation, opinion poll and the line of least resistance, and is a gutless little squit. | ||||||
| Chez |
It's a shame that Robin Cook died. They're mostly all so far removed from the person in the street that they have no idea what we think or feel or need.
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| Jamanda |
I'm out on my own there, and I'm not surprised really. But I could never vote Tory, and I would never not use my vote  If there was another party to vote for - Green or Lib Dem I would have gone for them.
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| Rob R |
Labour always seem to stick some wet lettuce up there in opposition, I wonder if that will change this time round (if they bother at all). 
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| lottie |
I've voted, Conservative, Libdem,Green and Independent at various elections depending on National/Local choice available etc but so far never Labour---my memories are too long. |
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| Penny |
Not quite on your own. I'll vote Tory when hell freezes over, and I too couldn't not vote. |
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| LynneA |
I wonder if any of this is Davis maneouvering himself to be perceived as viable opposition to Cameron, so that if the expected landslide victory doesn't happen next General Election, he can slide into the leadership unopposed. | ||||||
| JB |
Looks like I'm right on that. Labour don't want to bother with the electorate so have decided to skip all this election nonsense. |
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| vegplot |
I've never been particualrly polictically aware and didn't think much of Davies before this. However, if he is sincere he's stood up for what he believes in and has shown more gumption than Cameron at challenging Labour. | ||||||
| gnome |
ooh, you should never listen to what a politician says |
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| Rob R |
I also wondered that too. I saw Tony Robinson on TV this morning saying how he supported DD & was ashamed of Labour's pushing for the 42 day rule. When he starts saying things like that you know they're in trouble. Most of the support on that programme was in favour of DD. I also noticed a lot of people on the street interviewed saying they didn't think 42 days was very long- I wonder how long they would last in a police cell without a reason before complaining, and would they still think 42 days wasn't long when they were let out? At 3k/day though in compensation, that's only 27 days in the clink for someone if the by-election costs 80k.
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| VSS |
blimey, as much as that - now there's a thought
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| Penny |
You should meet my husband - his thought exactly
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| Helen_A |
The 3K per day is only from the 29th day onwards, if you are completely exhonourated of *any* crime. So all they need to do is fine a speeding ticket or littering or something and they owe you nothing because you won't be innocent.
Helen_A |
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| wizz |
Beginning to feel relieved that I don't live a few miles down the road....
I always vote - but if it was a choice between DD or a Murdoch backed McKenzie... ?!!!   well i might have to reconsider abstaining or spoil the paper.
Made your mind up yet Rob?!!! |
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| Rob R |
I was planning to go with what Downsizers thought I'm what they call a proper floating voter.
Have you seen the usual choice? DD is the best that is available in general elections, OK we had a half decent Lib Dem in 2001 who came close after Labour really messed up with the FMD debacle, but they went backwards again in 2005. |
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| lottie |
I don't care how people vote---it's a democracy---as long as they do vote---people died to get me the vote and they are still having to do that to get a vote all over the world---sorry that sounds dreadfully pi-- but it's something I feel really strongly about---when I see the turnout at elections sometimes I could weep.
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| gnome |
if i changed my name to "Spoiled Ballot Paper" and then stood for election, do you think i could get in? | ||||||
| Rob R |
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| lottie |
If you did that'd be fine---it would be the closest to what most people wanted.
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| Jamanda |
I think we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum Lottie, but I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. |
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| gnome |
so who voted Brown in? who voted on the Euro? who voted we go to war in Iraq? who voted for the 42 day detention law? oh, i forgot - there wasn't a referendum on those issues was there? so basically we can get to vote on which fascist dictator tells us what to do every five years - how is that democracy? like it or lump it is not a choice - it's an ultimatum. | ||||||
| Rob R |
I think it will become increasingly difficult to find people who voted Tony in as the years go by, in a similar way to how it is finding someone now who supported Maggie in the '80's. In retrospect we, as a populous, tend to demand more choice about who leads us, but then we don't tend to claim the responsibility for its outcomes. |
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| JB |
I agree with that in principle but then I remember that you can't force people to have an opinion so if they choose not to vote that should be as acceptable as having an opinion on who to vote for. |
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| JB |
But Britain, like most "democracies" is not a democracy. It is a representative democracy and the inevitable but unfortunate consequence is that your representative will not agree with you on everything. The best you can hope for is to vote for someone who broadly agrees with you and then become active in politics to persuade them and the public in general that you are right and they should vote as you want when they next come to vote. Did you right to your MP in advance of the vote on 42 days? did you march through London to oppose the Iraq war? Did you write to the papers about the Euro? If not then how was your MP supposed to know what you wanted. (Apologies in advance if you did but the point is true that too many people complain their MPs don't represent them but never communicate with their MP) Of course real democracy is probably a practical impossibility in any community with more than 12 people! |
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| gnome |
no, you didn't miss an election - nobody voted for Brown, there was no election - Blair stood down and Brown replaced him - the public had no say in the matter.. obviously some people voted Labour last election, but the truth is, people dont vote for a party because they agree with their policies (lets face it - who keeps their election promises anyway?) - they vote for MPs because they like the personalities. it's not very sensible, but it's true and they all know it. |
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| Rob R |
Have you got the right quote in there? I'm confused as to how it fits in with your point.
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| JB |
Of course 42 days, the invasion of Iraq and the general abolition of civil rights were not exactly published in the labour manifesto for the last couple of elections |
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| gnome |
exactly my point. this sort of thing does not even resemble democracy. the whole thing is an utter farce. can i vote for whoever i want? no. on voting day i can only vote for those tiny selection of individuals who are on the ballot paper. i wanted to vote green, but there are no green representatives in my area. is becoming a politician the only way i can get my say? and why is it that there has to be a local representative of the green party, when in the town i was born in, the elected MP lived 17 miles away? | ||||||
| JB |
Then become more political, hassle your MP to vote your way, write to the papers, campaign on behalf of the green party. You are not disenfranchised because we have a representative democracy but there are inevitable compromises simply because it is representative. The less politically active people are the greater those compromises are but it is within your power to change that to some degree. |
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| Rob R |
Well the ballot paper has 22 names on it!  No Labour one though (guess they couldn't face losing another vote). I'm quite tempted by the Church of The Militant Elvis Party
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| RichardW |
Ooooh good choice
Richard |
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| Rob R |
Yeah but bear in mind the stiff competition from Mad Cow-Girl of Monster Raving Loonies and even a candidate for the Miss Great Britain Party.
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| LynneA |
....and David Icke | ||||||
| Rob R |
I wasn't going to mention the wacky ones
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| Brownbear |
That would be the young person who declared the British Army to be a band of murderers. |
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| crofter |
"3. QUEEN'S PEACE Under the Queen's peace means that the killing of an enemy in the course of war will not be murder." |
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| Rob R |
The church of the militant Elvis lost it's deposit
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