| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Woodburner |
What can I shoot with an air rifle?Which of these can I shoot with an air rifle? Rabbits, squirrels, magpies, pigeons, and pheasant, oh and muntjac, if they are good eating.Also, what are the limitations on where I could shoot them, and are there any limitations on when, for any of them? |
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| marigold |
I dunno what you can shoot with an air-rifle, all I ever shot with one was the heads off daffodils (my mother was not amused)  .
Sorry  , helpful person will be along soon...
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| tahir |
Muntac with an air rifle? I can't imagine there are any out there powerful enough to kill something that large. | ||||||
| Mary-Jane |
Good God no. You would never shoot Mutjac with an air rifle. You would only wound them and leave them in agony. I wouldn't even use a shotgun personally. Brown Bear will be along later with some sensible advice no doubt. |
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| gil |
Re: What can I shoot with an air rifle?
Muntjac - no, too big Rabbits, squirrels, magpies, pigeon, pheasant - yes, BUT effective range of an air rifle is 25-30yds Therefore you have to get quite close to them to be sure of getting a good, clean shot. You also have to be quite a good shot to hit them when they are moving (running, flying) Squirrels spend a lot of time in trees (possibility of ricochet off branches/trunk if you miss). Do NOT shoot red squirrels. Magpie - I wouldn't eat this unless I were desperate, so unless you have a serious problem with them as pests, prolly not worth it Rabbits - more likely to be on the move at dawn / dusk, though obviously around at other times. You will need to sit downwind and very still for quite a long while, possibly in cold, rain, or a cloud of midges. Pheasant - often slow-moving, slow-witted. Large-ish. Perfect quarry. Pigeons (wood) - smaller; don't spend as much time on the ground as pheasant. Tree comments apply. Shoot where : on your own land; on someone else's land with the landowners permission When : pheasant season Oct - Jan in Scotland; Oct - Dec (I think) in England. They're a bit small earlier in the season, so best left till start of Nov. Rabbits, squirrels : all year Don't shoot things in their breeding season, nor when they have young to care for. |
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| vegplot |
Extract from the BASC website.
BIRDS: (covered by the open general licences) crows, rooks, jackdaws, magpies, jays, woodpigeon, collared doves, feral pigeons. MAMMALS: brown rats, grey squirrels, stoats, mink and rabbits All birds are protected, and although there are seasons when you can legally shoot game, and some wildfowl, they are not suitable quarry for air rifles. However, as long as you are complying with firearms law, you can shoot certain pest bird species. These are covered by open general licences which, in simple terms, mean you can shoot the birds listed, provided you have the landowner’s permission and provided you are doing it for one of the reasons allowed by the licence. These reasons include: • to protect crops • to protect game and wildlife • to protect public health or safety BASC recommends that anyone wishing to take bird pest species should read BASC’s advice on general licences - click here. You can shoot mammal pests at any time provided you have the landowner’s permission. Air rifles are suitable for: brown rats, grey squirrels, stoats, mink and rabbits. http://www.basc.org.uk/content/airriflepractice |
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| Rob R |
Barn doors.
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| KILLITnGRILLIT |
I would have to say that you need to hit a 2p size target 4 times out of 5 on a regular basis before you step out into the world of killing animals and birds.
Muntjac........hell no! . |
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| mochyn |
Not all of us. Actually, I'm quite good with an air pistol. |
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| mochyn |
At what distance? |
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| Brownbear |
You have to get head shots with an air rifle. If you just have a vast number of bunnies, and want them dead, a .17HMR will kill instantly with a central chest shot, which makes lamping them at night easier.
I would only use an air rifle when considerations of safety rule out all other arms. |
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| vegplot |
I shot a rabbit in the head with an air rifle just once. First and last time. It didn't die as quickly as I would have wanted and I dare say, for a short while, the bunny thought the same. | ||||||
| Jonnyboy |
With any firearm there is the risk of wounding. Being able to quickly despatch a wounded animal is an essential skill to learn when shooting any live quarry. IMHO. |
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| vegplot |
When I reached 15 I bought a shotgun and used that instead. |
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| Brownbear |
True - but the less energy a projectile delivers, the less likely it is to kill outright. A .17HMR bullet only weighs 17 grains, not much more than a .22 air rifle pellet, but if fired at clay or wet earth will blow out a hole the size of a grapefruit, whilst an airgun pellet will just disappear into the ground. |
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| whitelegg1 |
If you are looking to eat your quarry.
Wood Pigeons Collared Doves Crows Squirrels Rabbits Hares Borderline......not considered to be appropriate quarry for an air rifle, but not illegal either...(also be careful as thay have different restrictions to rabbits..... If you can find a pheasant at the right time of the year that does not move its head arround too much, and you have the appropirate permission from the landowner to do so.....then pheasants.....although you may be entering a grey legal area, as ther are some contradicting laws regarding shooting birds with firearms (and yes an air rifle IS a firearm (even a sub 12ftlb one)) especially if it is a multi-shot variant... The law was NOT written to accomodate modern air rifles, and it probably never will be!! 
Again as always, the BASC is a good source of helpful information....I even got them to put me help me with a very grey air rifle area....resulting in the disposal of the air rifle!!! Much to my displeasure, but I wasn't prepared to use it and loose more, if they decide that in fact it WAS a section 5 firearm  Section 5 includes sub-machine guns and rocket launchers!!!!!!!!!
I also spoke to the chief fireamrs officer of Essex, even he didn't have a definative answer....'sounds OK, but don't get caught shooting bus shelters up!' was his advice 
Pete 
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| Jonnyboy |
Agree. I was making more of a general point. Regardless of the weapon used (which should generally be the best one for the quarry or type of shooting) knowing how to despatch quarry is an essential task. I've seen people despatch a wounded pigeon by shooting it again.... |
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| Brownbear |
There was one occasion when I shot a rabbit in the back of the head with a .22 - it went flying and got up again. I shot it again, same thing, and again. Then it jumped up and ran to its hole, dropping about a foot short. When I cleaned and skinned it, I found that it was shot in the head, neck and through the heart
It was either a cyborg rabbit or related to Rasputin. I have a witness to this. |
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| RichardW |
Just to put the cat in with the pigeons. There are some air rifles that are more than capable of taking munties, even wild boar but you wont get one in this country. I am fairly sure you cant shoot game (IE pheasants) with an air rifle.
Man shoot boar with air gun Justme |
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| KILLITnGRILLIT |
Doesn`t matter, if you can`t hit that at 20 yds then you hunt at less than that, if you can do it at 60yds(highly unlikely unless a FAC weapon) then that would be OK. As a generalisation 30yds for a full power, circa 11-11.99 ftlbs airrifle. . |
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| Gervase |
I have to confess I was hugely impressed with the .17 HMR - it would seem to be the ideal general purpose rifle for the smallholder (and with less recoil than a spring-powered air rifle). | ||||||
| RichardW |
Me too.
It was the one I was most looking forward to shooting. Does it have any down sides compared to the .22? Justme |
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| Treacodactyl |
I got the impression from some people that it might be harder to get on your FAC depending on the type of land you'll be shooting on? Some people also suggest the bullets are more affected by wind. BB, any truth in that or is it just ill informed rubbish? |
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| whitelegg1 |
.17Hmr vs .22LR
Downsides....you cannot get a semi-auto in 17Hmr in UK. (However the semi-autos are not meant to be as accurate as a bolt action ((unless you spend ALOT of money!))) You are more likely to get meat damage with a 17Hmr. BUt for vermin control, if you don't want to eat your quarry, then your range envelope is much bigger with a 17Hmr. Th 17Hmr is ALOT louder than a moderated sub-sonic .22LR! My .22 is virtually silent, the loudest noise is the impact on the rabbits head. Bullets (a bad word as they are cartridges as well, but you know what I mean!) are significantly more expensive with the 17HMR. Is the 17Hmr on its way out, with the reintroduction of the 5mm rimfire??? (That one will put the purr purr amongst the coo coos!) The choice of rifles with the 17HMR is rather limited. Ruger, CZ, Marlin, Anschutz, Savage ((have I missed any??), they tend to have just one model per manufacturer. .22s are tooooo many to list. Well thats some thoughts to be getting on with! One thing I would say..... Being able to shoot out well past 100 yards, is all well and good..... next time you are out in a field....work out how far 100 yards is, then try to imagine spotting a rabbit at 100 yards... it isn't very easy. Unless you are Steve Austin...ddddddddd
Pete
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| RichardW |
Wind & gravity all need time to affect the path of the projectile. As the hmr is so much faster than a .22 its less afected by gravity, its also smaller so the wind get less grip on it but its mass is lighter so its easier to move it. Or thats what all the info on other forums seems to say.
Justme |
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| gil |
I was impressed with the 17HMR too, and would like to try one out again at some point with a view to getting a FAC. | ||||||
| Brownbear |
I was a devotee of the .22, which (in an expensively custom-built and very accurate semi-auto version) is my night bunny gun with IR sight, but I took to the .17HMR for a number of reasons.
It has a very flat trajectory - from 50 to 100 yards there is no bullet drop to speak of, whilst the slower and heavier .22 will drop several inches over the same distance. This saves time calculating range and holdover. It is also a tack driver - yes it does more meat damage, but with a good scope I can get head-shots at up to 120 yards. This virtually blows their heads off, ther's no damage to the eating meat but it kills first time every time. If straightforwardly doing pest control, when just killing is the job and there's less worry about meat damage, a chest shot (quicker to acquire the target) with a .22 frequently doesn't kill. A double-tap is standard. One hit to the chest area with a .17HMR kills first time, every time, and at greater range. Yes, the bullet crack is noisier and spooks the bunnies, but no more, in my experience, than the sound of the impact of a .22 on a rabbit does. The .22 is much more likely to ricochet, being slow and of lead. The fast, light, frangible .17 round disintegrates on impact, even in a flinty field. The greater range makes them useable against crows, magpies without having to decoy them in. The greater power makes them suitable against fox up to 120 yards. Yes, rain and strong wind can divert the bullet. If you commonly go out shooting bunnies in the teeth of a howlng gale and the peeing-down rain, it's probably not the round for you. It's not much different to a .22 for that, though, because although the round is half the mass of a .22, it's travelling at about three times the speed. |
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| vegplot |
Another downside of the .17 HMR is the higher barrel wear compared to a .22. The .17 HMR bullet is jacketed (copper) whilst the .22 is lead. However, for all practical purposes this isn't going to matter much unless you're shooting several 1000 rounds for this to become a problem.
If I was in vermin control the .17 HMR would be my weapon of choice. If I'm plinking and target shooting I would favour the .22LR. In essence if you out in the field, like BB, you'd have a selection of guns to cover each situtation you're likely to find yourself in, choosing your gun for the task. I dare say BB could provide a list of half a dozen guns that would cover most field situations. Here's my choice: 12 bore shotgun .410 shotgun 6.5x55 rifle (or similar) .17 HMR .22 LR |
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| whitelegg1 |
Ones to add to that list might be.....
A moderated shotgun....long and heavy, but very useful for what it does..... A .22 centerfire rifle (.22hornet(less so), .222, .223, .22/250) for use on small deer and fox. What you go for depends on budjet, and whether or not you would homeload! Which cuts down the cost alot, but is obviously a skill that you don't want to get wrong )
Also there is .22 FAC Air....obviously this needs to be on ticket, and has restrictions on use. But has less of the danger from shotting up into trees that cartridge based rifles have.(ie if you miss, how far is the bullet going to go, and what is it going to do when it comes back down to earth!!) Possible list: .177 Air , very quiet and very accurate .22 FAC Air not so quiet, hard hitting & longer range than sub 12 ftlbs. .22LR moderated, very quiet good up to 100 yards. (If you're a better shot than me) .17HMR moderated (might as well moderate it!) much longer range than .22 hardest hitting rimfire... .223 for small deer and fox (probably the cheapest ammo of the .22s) Something large for the bigger deer! Semi-auto 12g for pigeons and crows. Less recoil than a SBS!! Budget list. .177 Air, use anywhere it is safe to get a PCP as there are effectively recoiless. Very accurate out to 30 yards (and a bit). Very good for practicing, cheap cheap cheap ammo. Headshots on Rats, Squirrels, Rabbits, Crows, Pigeons, Magpies. .22LR cheapest rimfire, ammo the cheapest. Go for a bolt action, moderated. Good starter into FAC. Shouldn't freek out your FEO!! Practice practice practice now before your shooting something that hits your pocket every time your pull the trigger!! 12g SBS or O/U, something russian S/H £100 approx. Will do for pigeons and crows on the wing...and opportunistic fox at suitable range, with suitable cartridges. Doesn't cover you for deer of any sort, but perhaps that is not a good quarry to start on.......unless it is your land and you have a problem!! Pete
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| vegplot |
12 bore shotgun
.410 shotgun .223 6.5x55 rifle (or similar) .17 HMR .22 LR
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| Treacodactyl |
Plus a large gun cabinet, a few scopes and plenty of land to shoot over. What would happen if you have wild boar about?
I know a fair bit will depend on what and where you're shooting but what would be the minimum? Although overkill, literally, but would a .223 be a suitable long range bunny gun for pest control? An idea of the cost of ammunition would be useful as well. I personally like the idea of a .22 spring air rifle as it can sit around, is very cheap to run and I've often had bunnies, grey squirrels and pigeons within 10m or so when out walking so it could be useful to get something for the pot once in a while. |
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| Brownbear |
plus .308 Win. for Red deer and boar. |
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| vegplot |
[quote="Treacodactyl"]Plus a large gun cabinet, a few scopes and plenty of land to shoot over.
A larger calibre might be required such as a .308 or 7x57(?) for instance.
I doubt very much whether you'd get a .223 on the basis of rabbit shooting alone. Be wary of shooting anything at long range as you are less aware of what is behind the target (never shoot at something unless it has a good backstop) and you're less accurate the further away you are. .223 bullets can travel a long way.
Be wary of shooting birds they are covered by general licences. Quoting BASC "By definition you do not need to apply for a general licence but you are required by law to abide by the terms and conditions of each licence. Thus, it is extremely important to be aware of the terms and conditions relevant to your situation." If you plan to do any sort of field shooting consult the BASC site first and better still become a member. |
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| Brownbear |
The Police would not give you authorisation for a .223 if you only had rabbits but no fox. They wouldn't give you a .17HMR if you said it was for fox and not rabbits. These rules were laid down by some bod in the Home Office who'd never fired a rifle in his or her life. If you have bunnies and the odd fox, get a .17; if you have swarms of fox, get a .223 or even a .22-250.
The cost of .223 ammunition would make it a most unsuitable weapon for rabbit control. |
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| Treacodactyl |
I wouldn't be after a .223 just for bunnies, I would want to eat them after all, and I doubt I would have a real need for one. I was also under the impression that it would be easier to get hold a .22LR than a .17HMR and that can depend on your local police? What I have thought about is would you be able to apply for a .243 FAC for fox control and then once you have your rifle take a DSC1 and use it for deer? VP, I'm reasonably aware of the open licences and I've been a member of BASC for a few years now. Personally I'll be shooting over my small holding once I get it so it'll mainly be for pest control anyway and anything that can be eaten will be. Magpie fritters anyone?
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| vegplot |
Just to clarify, for those who may be confused by the terminology. Ammunition is often quoted by just by it's calibre (bullet diameter in inches or mm) e.g. .223, .17 .22 etc.
For instance the .223 round has the same calibre as the .22 LR(actually .223 inches) but dramatically different 'performance'. .22LR energy 104-141 ft.lb .223 energy 1,080-2,750 ft.lb (source: wikipedia) |
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| vegplot |
Glorious
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| Brownbear |
Well, it would depend on the police, but they'd have to be operating on some pretty odd criteria to allow .22 and not .17HMR, which is in some ways a less risky calibre - more accurate and far less likely to ricochet. If they took such a line, BASCs legal and firearms depts should be able to sort them out.
Yes, if you have 'need' for a fox rifle you could get it. You could also have it conditioned for deer. Not sure you actually need a DSC1 - I've seen what they do and I don't rate it very highly. The marksmanship requirement is very low, though the safety is good. Apart from that, you learn to memorise closed season dates - useful if they don't change and you're unable, for some strange reason, to look things up before going out stalking. |
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| Treacodactyl |
Interesting, thanks. I'll give that some more thought nearer the time. What training would you suggest of someone wanted to shoot the odd deer for forestry protection and the table? Or would you suggest getting a professional in? |
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| Brownbear |
I'd suggest doing the safe weapons handling course, or going to Budleigh Farm (where the Forestry Commission people are trained), and getting a stalking qualification, that mostly has to do with the important bits - marksmanship and safe handling/choosing backstops - for far less money. Of course, you can always call in a pro if you don't want the hassle. I'd suggest not getting 'someone you know' to do it as unless you know them very well and that they are safe, all sorts of things can go wrong. |
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| vegplot |
I put down my reason for the 7x57 as booking for a paid stalking shoot and included the invoice as evidence. The Firearms Officer checked the booking and the land just to make sure and granted the variation on my FAC. I went on to do my DSC1 which was a another valid reason I could have used. However, I have been warned that if I don't use said rifle for intended purpose I could have it removed from my FAC, but that is a condition applied to club shooting as well. |
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| RichardW |
I thought you needed your DSC1 to supply deer meat to people?
Justme |