Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption
 


       Downsizer Forum Index -> Recipes, Preserving, Homebrewing
Falstaff

What is cider ?

There are some quite "odd Ciders" about these days - with all sorts of extraneous ingrediments Confused

SO is there a specific definition of Cider - or is it a bit like "Free Range chickens" ?
Nick

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-162-cider-production/excise-notice-162-cider-production

Section 2.1 and 30.
Cathryn

It's the first alcoholic drink that I remember being introduced to, loved it ever since. Not all of it though. I rarely enjoy the holier than thou still scrumpy type of stuff bought direct from the farm. And anything with added sweeteners.... yeuucchh!

Does that help? Smile
vegplot

Old Rosie. There is no other cider. I've not touched it for nearly 6 years.
sean

There was a young lady from Ryde
Who ate some green apples and died
The apples fermented
Inside the lamented
Made cider inside her inside.
Chez

Apples and a dead rat. Cloudy and flat, served at room temperature. The rest of it is vile.
Lorrainelovesplants

Lot of silly nonsense.
Some makers (wont name names) actually dont have ANY apple in it at all. Just glucose concentrate and flavourings.
Some have jacked it up with sugar to a high alcohol level and then water it down to session cider ABV and add caramel for colour and malic acid for mouthfeel (this is your very commercial brand names)
Then there are craft cider producers - like me. Its 100% juice from British apples thats fermented, matured and either bottled or bagged. I can either pasteurise or not as the market requires, and have started doing bottle conditioned cider (thats naturally sparkling to those who dont know).
Ive been shortlisted for another award too.

Last autumn did 1800L. Ive only got 200L left which will be gione by the end of summer. This autumn doing 3000L.
Only wish Id taken Bodger's advice and done it sooner (but realistically, didnt have the money then).
Nick

I'll name names. Bulmers (strongbow, etc) use concentrate from Germany, despite being based amongst orchards.

Westons (Old Rosie, for example) use local apples, and quite a lot of sheep shit.
Falstaff

I'll name names. Bulmers (strongbow, etc) use concentrate from Germany, ........


That's interesting Nick. It was the price of apple juice in Lidl (made from concentrate) and the present abundance of Elderflowers which led me to ask.

Thanks for your input Lorraine, that's highly educational. Cool

So according to "the rules" (post 2010 apparently)- In order to be called cider - at least 35% of the mix must be of apple juice at 1033 or better.

(as an aside the "minima" alone, would give a drink approx 1% abv - which could not be called cider !)

The "juice" is allowed to be made from concentrate and as much sugar (including high fructose corn sugar) and water can be added as seems convenient.

Lorraine - is there an implication in what you wrote that your "unnamed" producer, "gets round" these regs by whacking a load of sugar in, so they can call it "cider" then afterwards dilutes it to a "drinkable level" ? or do you think the 35% rule would still apply to the diluted product ?
Lorrainelovesplants

A lot depends on the finished product and duty rates.
If your cider is of an ABV above a certain limit, you pay higher rate duty. If it contains anything other than apples (ie has blackberry or raspberry or whatever added) it is then a fruit wine, and attracts a higher level of duty.
This obviously has a bearing on producers and you will find that the ciders with added fruit etc are aimed at the younger end of the market. HOWEVER, as this is a fast growing market, and commercial cider can be made all year at the drop of a hat (as it were) even established traditional makers are jumping on the band wagon - after all, its just another batch to them.

I get one bite at it - from Sept to Dec, and this all has to be finished, blended etc, so I need to know what Im doing with my 'raw' cider by end of Feb.
I need to have some plain old 6% still cider for my pub and my traditionalists, and Ive settled on bottle carbonation for the rest. As a one person producer, this is enough for me to keep my eyes on.
You wont see Kiwi or vanilla going into any cider here!
(although Ive made some with a touch of elderflower FOR MY PERSONAL CONSUMPTION).
labelling regs are not strict enough in my mind, but if you look at the back label and just see the order of ingredients....some foreign 'ciders' first ingredient is water, followed by sugar......
Lorrainelovesplants

Small industry - naming no names
Cathryn

I will have to try yours Lorraine. What annoys me is that some of them don't have clear ingredients on them at all. Apart from apples, strawberries, cherries.
Chez

Lorraine's is lovely, really nice stuff.
Lorrainelovesplants

not 'vile' then?
Laughing
Lorrainelovesplants

Cathryn - any time your down this way.

I am looking at Mail order. Its the legalities of selling (licence -wise) that I need to look at.
Lorrainelovesplants

mail order! Will you listen to me!


FEET - back on the ground! laughing5
Chez

not 'vile' then?
Laughing


No, yours is the proper stuff, not the artificial gloop! Sorry, I wasn't specific enough in my "artifical gloop bad, small producer stuff good" statememt Smile
Tavascarow

I can vouch for Spotty Dog as well.
The only problem I had was it doesn't keep.
Once I started drinking it it dissapeared at a rate of knots!
Pilsbury

Yep, great stuff. gz

I'm fed up of seeing "pear cider"......bring back real perry !! Lorrainelovesplants

Thanks all - there is great debate amongst the British cider making fraternity about what constitutes real cider, and Ive been priviledged to do my bit in soliciting the help of our MP who has joined the cider makers group in the HofC to look at the EU threat to zero duty for small cider makers.

I await with interest developments in each of these, but,
I do think there is a place for fruit ciders - after all - people want them so why not exploit that market, but I do think labelling should be stricter so we all know exactly what we are drinking.

And most pear cider in this country comes from concentrate, and not necessarily from Britiain.
Falstaff

So it seems "They" can make fruit or any flavoured cider "they" like, but would have to pay duty as though it were a weak wine.

"We" (small tax free producers do not have that luxury, because the "duty free" only relates to CIDER and although you can "Gee it up" with sugar and you can use apple concentrated juice if you want that's about it !

Bodger and you (Anyone else producing for sale ? ) are trying to "keep the faith" and produce "Pukka country cider" from just apples and skill and loving attention - is that about the state of it ?
Lorrainelovesplants

Rather than the 'them' and us divide, think of it like this - commercial cider producers are in it to make money (and there is nothing wrong with that). People like choice. There is nothing wrong with that.
I like to know what is in my food and thus, Im pretty open and honest about what is in my cider. Not all producers are.

I like to use apples that I can get within 40 miles of here. Most of them come from within 5 miles, but I like to be honest and so my website states within 40 miles.
I press the apples and use the full undilted juice to ferment. When I take it off the lees into a same size maturation barrel there is a little gaps (to account for the sediment left behind). To prevent air getting to the batch and spoiling it - I add tap water. This means Im adding about 2 litres to 180 litres to make up to 200. I never add any sugar unless Im doing bottle conditioned - which means Im doing a secondary ferment in the bottle with a very small (Im not giving you the recipe) amount of sugar.
I dont really care what other people are doing.
People like what I do, so I keep doing it, but I like to try and deal honestly, and its a shame business so I try not to talk about people behind their backs.
Lorrainelovesplants

sorry...small business.... Falstaff



...............You wont see Kiwi or vanilla going into any cider here!
(although Ive made some with a touch of elderflower FOR MY PERSONAL CONSUMPTION).....................

Without giving away any trade secrets Lorraine - I'd love to have your advice on whether to "capture" eldeflower taste - say as cordial or a weak wine and then combine it into the cider as the apples become ready, or whether the right way is to make the cider , then add the eldeflowers at this time of year, to the almost complete brew ?

Personally - I'm looking at a bit of a cheat with Lidl apple juice and natural elderflower which are ready just now !
dpack

freeze the elderflowers and use them later Falstaff

You may be right dpack, but I suspect the esters may be diminished or changed with the freezing. Lorrainelovesplants

Falstaff - Im not a purist, but I dont think combining cider with elderflower wine will work for you.

make the cider and keep it as cider. make some elderflower cordial.
You can add a touch of elderflower cordial to cider to add some floral notes, BUT be aware that this will referment due to the sugar content, so you may want to watch how much you use, and how you use it.

Ive used a touch of elderflower cordial to add a bit of fizz to my fully fermented cider, creating a sparkling cider with a slightly light floral edge. This was done in bottle and has been quite nice, if a little lively.
Nick

I'll name names. Bulmers (strongbow, etc) use concentrate from Germany, despite being based amongst orchards.

Westons (Old Rosie, for example) use local apples, and quite a lot of sheep shit.

And, today, (unsurprisingly) I find Carlsberg Somersby is made, to order, in around 9 days, from pure concentrate, sourced globally, based on price.

If the sun comes out, they increase production so you can be drinking it next weekend.

Quote:
The traditional ways of cider making are still with us today and cider is still appreciated by people from all walks of life who enjoy its naturally fruity and refreshing taste.


Carlsberg don't spin bullshit, but if they did.... Oh. Hang on...
dpack

Laughing

carlsberg lost my vote when they deleted the valerian from mr churchill's special brew
bibbster

Cathryn - any time your down this way.

I am looking at Mail order. Its the legalities of selling (licence -wise) that I need to look at.

Perhaps we need a cider buying trip before the end of July...
Very Happy
Nick

Laughing

carlsberg lost my vote when they deleted the valerian from mr churchill's special brew

Special Brew remains a fantastic aid to slimming.
Shan

Ugghhh... Valerian smells like Plague Rats.... which our cat happens to adore. Laughing dpack

i had a home made hound that was rather(perhaps too) fond of the stuff Lorrainelovesplants

Bibbster - need to be quick!

Seriously, I have one more show to do and I will be out of cider I think! I have 7 bottles of still cider left (out of everything I pressed)so tomorrow, I am bottling.... my last bit of cider.
I dont even have the little bit I reserved for me - its all going in the blend....
bibbster

Bibbster - need to be quick!

Seriously, I have one more show to do and I will be out of cider I think! I have 7 bottles of still cider left (out of everything I pressed)so tomorrow, I am bottling.... my last bit of cider.
I dont even have the little bit I reserved for me - its all going in the blend....

Have to be next year then
Confused
       Downsizer Forum Index -> Recipes, Preserving, Homebrewing
Page 1 of 1
Home Home Home Home Home