| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| yummersetter |
what shall we do with additional land?it's planning time now and we'd welcome any input and suggestions. The next stage (probably) will be to apply for an orchard planting and new native hedge grant and sort out bridging the gap (literally) between the two parts, which at present is 15ft of bramble, nettle and various wild thorny things surrounding a storm ditch about 3ft deep. The new hedge and stockfence will be along the southeast side. The dimensions of the new area are approx 80x40 metres. There's an overhead power line 1/3 up. The apple trees were grubbed out over the last ten years but before that it was an orchard for at least 200 years.The land rises about 2 metres up to the northern corner and floods in the next field down. There's a beautiful view from the top corner. Housing would be fraught with difficulties. We also have to insert a new gateway onto the road from the old orchard on an approximate line with the 'bridge', which will involve applying for planning permission. There's an ancient and well-used fox and badger right-of-way diagonally across both orchards. The orchard grant people would prefer local cider apple trees, other apples and fruit are allowed, but all trees must be traditional full standards. At present we have Crimson King, Coat Jersey, Tom Putt and Morgan Sweet cider apples and 30 varieties of traditional cooking and dessert apples plus some pear, plum and quince trees. I have room for 30 standard trees, including six that I'll move from the southern end of the existing orchard to keep that area as clear as possible of trees. I'm thinking 6 local cider trees, 6 modern apples, 6 'other' fruit and 6???. I'll also have a nursery area to propagate some of the old rare trees we already have. Of course, we could ignore the grant and plant whatever type of tree we wish. Any ideas about how to economically join the two fields to allow tractor access ( the ditch is dry 11 months and essential the other) and suggestions of fruit varieties, or other uses I haven't even considered? 
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| tahir |
So you're on a SE facing slope in Somerset? Sod the grants, plant loads of different stuff:
Apricots All sorts of nuts Persimmons PawPaws Figs Etc.... |
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| yummersetter |
 yaay
flings traditional safety to the winds |
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| tahir |
Vines (dessert if you don't want to make your own wine)
Kiwis (deliciosa and arguta) How acid are you? Maybe a cranberry/bilberry/blueberry patch in the wetter bit? |
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| tahir |
Martin does well with chestnuts in Devon | ||||
| Treacodactyl |
Roughly how much would the grant be and are there any other conditions that you'd rather not have? Do you have many pests in the area? If you have loads of squirrels for example you'll need to be prepared to control them to plant nuts etc.
As for the ditch I have a similar problem. We have a track that needs to be usable for vehicles but we need to join two ditches together to take storm and spring water away. I need to look into what to do but from wandering about various woodlands the simplest thing would be a large diameter plastic pipe (say 2 to 3 foot or so) placed in the ditch and rubble placed on top. There must be pipes that are designed to take traffic but I'm not sure where to get advice to do the job properly. |
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| yummersetter |
my reply disappeared in the crash (is it my fault, Jema?)
Whilst there's no reason not to plant more, we've got vines and kiwis growing over the veg garden paths, and a Black Hamburg grape in the polytunnel. They'd certainly gallop along the fence. Lots of selfrooting blackberry types in the fruit cage could shift too, and a selfsown morello cherry seedling. We've got two huge sweet chestnuts, planted about 16 years ago, and hazels in the hedges - rabbits deer and squirrels are around the village, they keep clear but squirrels venture into dog and cat zones when our nuts are ready to pick. The soil is 12-18 inches of heavy clay over shale (at least ours is, I haven't trial dug the new bit). Blackcurrants grow well, don't like them myself but they could be sold. I've got a feijoa in the fruit cage that could move, another in the polytunnel that's huge and probably wouldn't like the shock. But it would be good to reclaim the space, so it may have to take its chances next spring. I could trench cut the roots now to prepare it. Apricots would be good, I like the look of the new 'cot varieties, I've planted a couple near the house and they're doing well. |
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| yummersetter |
The grant is £10 per tree, so about 50%.
I've been advised by 'Planning' to speak to the Environment Agency about the ditch, but I haven't drawn their attention to my intentions yet. |
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| tahir |
Don't discount the old ones, Early Moorpark and Alfred have both done well for us |
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| Treacodactyl |
This might be a useful bit of background reading. http://handbooks.btcv.org.uk/handbooks/content/section/2326 |
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| yummersetter |
that's really good - thank you for that link. I hadn't been able to find anything nearly that appropriate on my searching for culvert info. | ||||
| Bebo |
You'll need some idea of peak flow in order to get the pipe big enough (if it isn't and it floods will it affect anyone?). Absolute minimum cover (dimension between top of pipe and finished ground level after you have backfilled) is generally 0.8m for something that will have to carry vehicles. If I get a chance later I'll try to dig out some information on the calculations you need to do.
You may need to get EA approval as well (James might be able to help on that one). Have you considered a couple of large steel beams with railway sleeps across them (and bolted through). That's what my neighbour put in to get his tractors across a stream. Less likely to reduce flow in the ditch and relatively easily removable if necesasry. |
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| yummersetter |
the water flows north to south, so any flooding would just overflow onto the orchard either side - too much going through and coming over the bank going round the corner would and does affect the house below, so in a way a culvert would be beneficial in that it'd slow the flow.
I'm starting to think that the construction costs would be too much to justify the occasional heavy tractor crossing though, more likely to be a ride-on mower or the like. It would be possible to access from the northern edge of the fence, so we'll think more about a sleeper bridge than pipework. Can't the sleepers be put onto concrete um 'banks' (for lack of a better term) either side. And wouldn't they rot out eventually? |
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| Bebo |
I think the term you are looking for might be abutments. That would have the sleepers spanning the ditch. Probably not strong enough for a tractor and more difficult to fix at either end. I was meaning two large beams spanning the river, with the sleepers stretching across between these.
If its a mini-tractor or quad bike type thing then something more lightweight would work. |
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| yummersetter |
ah hah, now I understand
yes - that's a good idea, I wasn't thinking laterally 
Round our way we tend to chuck an old bedstead across and pray, so two sleepers from bank to bank the width of the tractor tyres apart would be considered overengineered |
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| tahir |
The tree/planting cost is minimal in comparison to maintenance over x years |
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| yummersetter |
But my tree planting fund is in the solicitor's wallet.
No harm in applying for the grant, lets see - 6 traditional cider apple trees, 6 traditional pears then . . . . 2 paw-paws, 4 olive trees, a mango or two, some peaches, nectarines and apricots, 5 vines, 5 kiwis I wonder if I can mention global warming expectations there? |
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| tahir |
I think we should be able to, and I can't see why everything has to be on full size rootstocks. |
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| yummersetter |
because they want tourist coaches to drive round the Somerset lanes in springtime admiring the pretty apple blossom in the traditional apple orchards. Somerdisneyland.
perhaps a little too harsh, it's preservation and replacement - but these trees would be behind my traditional, ancient trees bit and hardly visible from the road, and I could emphasise pushing the boundaries of what's possible to grow in our ever more benign climate. Anyway, even a little contribution would be welcome. Last time I applied and got accepted, twenty years ago, I paid for everything myself in the end because I couldn't bear the idea of someone coming along and giving their approval to what I'd done - even though it was exactly what they were hoping for. 
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| tahir |
It's the same here, as far as I'm concerned orchards are part of our productive landscape, not just a visual amenity |
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| Truffle |
All very interesting and just had to add truffle cultivation as an option: www.plantationsystems.com we just had a find in the grounds of a school in the SW.
Can you really grow paw paw (great suggestion)? We have some indoors but will they fare ok outside? |
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| tahir |
Yeah, asimina triloba, not papaya... |
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| yummersetter |
where's Orange Pippin? He'll make a case for planting apples, surely!
mmm truffles, brilliant and exciting idea. Hazels are plentiful in the existing hedges. Might pop the eyebrows of the grant committee a bit
I bet that was one of the posh schools - down at the local schools it'd be a toadstool whatever it was. I haven't told OH we've veered from the straight and narrow yet - I'll just say ' Tahir advised . . . ' |
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| yummersetter |
The fruit is used as a laxative[222]. The leaves are diuretic[222]. They are applied externally to boils, ulcers and abscesses[4, 222]. The seed contains the alkaline asiminine, which is emetic and narcotic[222, 227]. They have been powdered and applied to hair to kill lice[222]. The bark is a bitter tonic[4] PFAF Yummy |
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| Ecocentric |
Back to the access problem, temorarily, I wonder if you could get away with a hybrid between a ford and a culvert - Cut ramps down on both sides. Clean and level ditch bottom, lay 8-12" pipes (enough to cope with low-medium flow) bedded on well compacted aggregate. Set large stones to form a "kerb" a little way in from each end and infill with coarse granular material. Ramps either side need to be just shallow enough for your tractor to negotiate allowing for any implements attached. It is, perhaps, unlikely that you will be requiring access during winter or, at least, after heavy rain so a proper roadway may not be necessary.
Low-medium flow will go through the pipes. Heavier flow will over-top the "ford" and flow away as normal. Flash flooding even on small scale can wash down debris to block pipes and you will need to check how far the "lake" will back up and if this would cause problems for neighbours up-stream. |
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| yummersetter |
thanks - that's a more sophisticated version of the plan we came up with last night, with the same reasoning, very helpful. We're just touring the site with jcb man right now.
No problems 'upstream' which is just our orchard and the field behind, because our orchard slopes down to the south flooding would just shortcut the bend and end up in the same place |
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| yummersetter |
When's the best time to plant trufflized hazel and how large are the seedlings? I presume they'd need vole/shrew/barknibbling rodent protection for a while. |