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judith

Which fruit trees?

I have an area or roughly 25 m x 10 m that I would like to plant up as a mini-orchard. We live right on the top of a hill, so we do get a lot of wind and quite a bit of snow during the winter, although the ground is a reasonably free-draining clay/loam so waterlogging isn't a problem. This area is in the lee of our barn, so there is some protection from the evil West wind (which is the prevailing wind), but none at all from the less frequent, but equally evil wind from the North.

I'm looking to plant 3 or 4 apple trees, a crab apple, a couple of cherries and possibly a plum, and OH would like at least one pear tree. I also like my trees to look like trees, so I'm not keen on those columnar types that just go straight up.

So I have a whole pile of questions.

a) Is that space large enough to take, say, 10 half-standard fruit trees, or would I need to go for a more dwarfing rootstock?

b) Would I be on a hiding to nothing trying to get pears to fruit up here? If there are any that are likely to succeed, how many would I have to plant for pollination purposes.

c) Any recommendations for varieties for these conditions. For the apples, I would like at least one for eating, one for cooking and one for storage. I like the Cox type of apple best, but essentially something with a bit of crunch and a bit of sweetness.

d) Same question for cherries and plums (we already have a damson and greengage that do quite well).

e) And probably a whole load of other questions that will occur to me after I have posted this.
judith

Oh, and any recommendations for mail-order nurseries?
tahir

Damsons, bullaces and cherry plums will all be fine, I'd imagine morello cherries would be fine too.

I'd speak to a local nursery about what varieties of aplles/pears you need but I'm sure there will be stuff you can grow, another good bet would be to speak to someone like Martin Crawford at www.agroforestry.co.uk who sells trees and has a HUGE knowledge of species, varieties and conditions required, they also sell a huge variety of "exotic" fruit and nut trees that might be worthwhile.

If you've got a south facing wall that you can train stuff up then there's a whole load more possibilities, although if your gage is fruiting well your conditions can't be that bad.
tahir

other nurseries I think are good are:

www.readsnursery.co.uk
Mr Read's a fine fellow, national collection holder for figs, grapes and citrus and also rescued the Rivers collection of cultivars when the firm folded.

http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/
Absolutely huge range of top fruit

www.kenmuir.co.uk
Good quality trees specialise in smaller forms, minarettes, dwarves etc.
bernie-woman

I have used keepers nursery - an excellent site for finding the right pollinators also ken muir is good but keepers are better for finding some obscure/older/rare varieties
judith

Thanks Tahir, I'll take a look at those sites. I take your point about speaking to local nurseries, though.

No handy south-facing wall, sadly. I love the idea of having espaliers, stepovers and other impeccably-trained trees, but I know in my heart-of-hearts that it just isn't going to happen!
tahir

bernie wrote:
an excellent site for finding the right pollinators also ken muir is good but keepers are better for finding some obscure/older/rare varieties


Definitely, all of the above are highly recommended but as I said it's well worth finding a nursery round there at least for advice.
Bugs

Judith wrote:
No handy south-facing wall, sadly


Would it be too too silly...to build a wall especially for this purpose (esp if you or someone you know has got/is going to knock down something so you could use old bricks) - or even a fence panel or two would help provide some shelter and support?
@Calli

Judith wrote:
Oh, and any recommendations for mail-order nurseries?


Try www.futureforests.ie
sorry too ignorant to know how to set up a link Sad

but we stocked 1.5 acres from them and excellent stock. Loved the crabapples excellent this year.....crabapple wine anyone?
tahir

Judith wrote:
I love the idea of having espaliers, stepovers and other impeccably-trained trees, but I know in my heart-of-hearts that it just isn't going to happen!


If you're not much into pruning then I'd go for fewer trees on more vigorous rootstocks, also with apples you're probably better with tip bearing rather than spur bearing ones. No recommendations, you'll have to talk to the nursery.
judith

Just tried the Keepers link - doesn't work. I'll track the site down though, don't worry.

It is the pollinator business that gets me all confused, Bernie. Whenever I choose 3 or 4 apples that I like the sound of and will be happy up here, then I find that the pollination combination won't work. Still, I've got a couple of months to draw up my list!
tahir

If you've got time I'd get "The Book of Apples" by Joan Morgan out from your local library, tasting notes on 2000+ apples.

Is your soil acid? If so you really should get some blueberries, excellent no maintenance crop.
tahir

Judith wrote:
Just tried the Keepers link - doesn't work. I'll track the site down though, don't worry.


Just corrected it.

As to pollination if you've got the room some crab apples will pollinate across apple pollination groups.
bernie-woman

http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/

Try that link or you'll find it via google

Happy shopping - I am very jealous. I am involved in helping choose some fruit trees for a community orchard in the village where I live but would love enough land to have my own Crying or Very sad
judith

Bugs wrote:
Would it be too too silly...to build a wall especially for this purpose (esp if you or someone you know has got/is going to knock down something so you could use old bricks) - or even a fence panel or two would help provide some shelter and support?


Nice idea, but it wouldn't really work here. No, these trees are going to have to make do with the conditions as described - whether they like it or not!
gil

plums can be a bit pernickety in harsh climates, but if your gages are OK.... Victorias every time as a basic, also a black plum called Czar (I think).

You need to check out which kinds of fruit tree are self pollinating if you're pushed for space. also re size / height : how are you going to harvest ? full size apple trees can require high ladders for picking, as I remember from my days as a youngster picking fruit in commercial Kentish orchards. but on the other hand those tiny ballerina trees are a bit effing weird.... I've gone for the next two sizes down from full-size.

there's also the argument that as well as finding out what varieties grow well in your area, you could try trees that will flourish in less clement climates, so that they will do really really well (for example, round here in S. Scotland, the folk wisdom is that you go north to Aberdeenshire to get your rose bushes, also to Lairg to get breeding sheep)

hope you enjoy planning and planting your orchard.
judith

tahir wrote:
If you've got time I'd get "The Book of Apples" by Joan Morgan out from your local library, tasting notes on 2000+ apples.

Is your soil acid? If so you really should get some blueberries, excellent no maintenance crop.


Sounds like an excellent book. I'll definitely try to track it down.

Soil is slightly acid, but not excessively so. Blueberries are on the list, but they would have to live in another (chicken-proofed Twisted Evil ) bit of the garden.
judith

tahir wrote:
As to pollination if you've got the room some crab apples will pollinate across apple pollination groups.


A crab apple is on my list - will it pollinate anything then?
tahir

Judith wrote:
Soil is slightly acid, but not excessively so. Blueberries are on the list, but they would have to live in another (chicken-proofed Twisted Evil ) bit of the garden.


They'll be fine then. I was also impressed by gooseberry Guido a huge Red berry that was a taste explosion when fully ripe, the Early Sulphur was sweet but small and quite flavourless.
tahir

Judith wrote:
A crab apple is on my list - will it pollinate anything then?


The right crab apple will pollinate virtually any apple, I think there's one called Honey something or other wihich does this, but any decent nursery will be able to help you on that.
judith

gbst wrote:
plums can be a bit pernickety in harsh climates, but if your gages are OK.... Victorias every time as a basic, also a black plum called Czar (I think).


I've posted about our greengage before - it is incredible. Planted right in the windiest bit of the garden, it is tall and spindly, has been almost ring-barked by sheep and has a great big scar running down the trunk. Last year we got about 20lb of fruit from it!

Quote:
You need to check out which kinds of fruit tree are self pollinating if you're pushed for space. also re size / height : how are you going to harvest ? full size apple trees can require high ladders for picking, as I remember from my days as a youngster picking fruit in commercial Kentish orchards. but on the other hand those tiny ballerina trees are a bit effing weird.... I've gone for the next two sizes down from full-size.


Sensible advice. I'm not keen on some of the very dwarfing trees either - they look a bit unnatural. But then I'm lucky enough to have the space for something a bit bigger. So how high are your trees likely to grow then?

Quote:
there's also the argument that as well as finding out what varieties grow well in your area, you could try trees that will flourish in less clement climates, so that they will do really really well (for example, round here in S. Scotland, the folk wisdom is that you go north to Aberdeenshire to get your rose bushes, also to Lairg to get breeding sheep)


That makes a lot of sense too. What have you gone for, then?
gil

I've posted about our greengage before - it is incredible. Planted right in the windiest bit of the garden, it is tall and spindly, has been almost ring-barked by sheep and has a great big scar running down the trunk. Last year we got about 20lb of fruit from it!

sounds great. an invincible tree.


So how high are your trees likely to grow then?

can't remember offhand - full size apple trees can grow to over 20 feet. think I've gone for ones whose finished size is about 12 feet high. also took on existing stone fruit about 8 feet, pears (that never fruit properly) ditto, and a solitary apple tree, variety unknown, but bears no fruit as no others to pollinate it.

Quote:
there's also the argument that as well as finding out what varieties grow well in your area, you could try trees that will flourish in less clement climates, so that they will do really really well (for example, round here in S. Scotland, the folk wisdom is that you go north to Aberdeenshire to get your rose bushes, also to Lairg to get breeding sheep)


That makes a lot of sense too. What have you gone for, then?[/quote]

have had two orchards : at previous cottage put in lots of crab apples, plus a Sunset (eating, bit like Cox, does well up here), and Grenadier (cooking), on the advice of an organic apple tree supplier whose name I forget. he did have a website, and is based near Auchinleck in Ayrshire. also put in 3 elders, 4 rowans and 12 sloe

When I moved, I transferred the Sunset, Grenadier and four of the crab apples that had survived my neighbours cows getting in and munching everything the first night I moved out and spent at the current place (he'd just finished silaging the field around me, and let the cows in to eat down the outside edges, but the fence wasn't stockproof, and I wasn;t tehre to chase them out and repair fence. however, it is cold and wet ground here and three years later I have had very few apples (also taking into account digging up and replanting). the only fruits that seem to do consistently well where I am are damsons, blueberries and rasps. plums intermittently. crab apples should be OK once they settle in, as there are huge crops on the wild trees further up the valley.

ah well. yours should be more rewarding !
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