| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Cathryn |
Why did horses replace oxen?This might have been answered but it came up in a random conversation and I am interested. I can see many advantages to farmers in keeping oxen, you can eat them for start. There doesn't seem to have been much of a British tradition around eating horses. Why did we move to horses? Are the large ones like shires much stronger therefore it did make sense? I can imagine that stocky native ponies might be better for checking your hill sheep. Any one else know what happened? |
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| gz |
This might help 
http://www.foxearth.org.uk/oxen.html |
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| Cathryn |
Interesting. I like the need for speed. The second article is somewhat biased. 
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| Nat S |
They didn't just come along one day and everybody suddenly went over as seems to be commonly suggested! The debate raged for years over which was better. The most common argument is that horses are stronger and faster and therefore more suited for BIG, "efficient" farming. Very similar to the tractors vs horses idea.
However, I don't believe that is true, and neither do most ox people I speak to, even the ones who work oxen and horses. They believe they are both pretty even, based on size and really it just comes down to which you prefer working with. In the old days what probably gave the impression of horses being faster and stronger was the fact that horses were worked in collars, rather than yokes. Collars are more comfortable to pull in long-term. I believe somebody's proven oxen can pull more in a yoke than with a collar (although some may have proved it the other way too) but that is pulling pure weight and no distance involved - let alone a whole day's work at ploughing. Horses also became larger, whereas native cattle breeds didn't. Look at the size of charolais cattle from france, and chianinas from Italy and other such draught breeds where oxen remained popular for longer (up to modern day). Those animals were bred bigger and leaner, specifically for the job. So it's always been judged on an uneven playing field. Personally, I think it has far more to do with horses being a status symbol in this country as they were always a rich person's thing - the equivalent of a flashy car. You can shine them up and parade them about and basically let people know you've 'arrived' when you get horses - whereas the ox was the poor man's beast, humbly getting on with the job for years and then providing a meal for the family. Can't really show off with that. |
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| Nat S |
Re: the foxearth articles - the first one is biased too, and factually wrong in places, poorly researched. The second one is biased, for a good reason - he viewed oxen as better, that was his whole point in writing it 
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| Nat S |
Something to also think about is that oxen were the ones ploughing and hauling in this country for millennia. Horses were rich people's transport and military toys. They did replace oxen, but that wasn't complete until 1890(ish) - and horses were then replaced by tractors between the world wars, so they had perhaps 50years of being the norm on farms, just in time to get themselves into all the early photos and films and give the impression they had been there all along..... | ||||
| Cathryn |
Yes, I noticed that and that oxen were used for much much longer in our history than horses. (Why do they think horses need all that fuss and grooming?) | ||||
| Nick |
Marketing? Which is why we never had My Little Oxen dolls. Although Ixy probably did.
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| Nat S |
Alas no - I was a typical pony-mad girl for years  worked with over 200 horses in 4 different stables.
I still ask myself why. |
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| Nick |
Well, at least you can comment, criticise and praise from a position of experience and knowledge. | ||||
| The.Grange |
because horse are simply more beautiful ....  
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| gil |
Re: Why did horses replace oxen?
My neighbour used to look the hill sheep on horseback, in days BQ [before quadbikes]. |
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| Cathryn |
I wonder if marketing played a part. I can see how oxen and horses would fulfill different roles. The wealthy owned horses to get them in and out of battles didn't they, bet that played a small part. Interesting bit of agricultural history I had never thought about before.
Quads still can't reach all the parts small ponies can, ask VSS. |
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| Rob R |
I was at a horse auction recently, beautiful is not the word. |
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| Nat S |
I'd be willing to bet that even a large ox could get where a small pony could - Angus is incredibly nimble, even though he looks like a great fat lump. I think the cloven hooves and flexible spine help. The other day we brought the cattle into the barn to pull the sold steers out and he gets picked on by the dexters - they are ideal belly-stabbing height  so he jumped into a spare pen with a couple of sheep. Except, he only got his front end over and was hung on the partition by his belly....no problem though, he just used the crossbars of wood like a ladder for his back feet and got over Then when the herd went out, he did the same again and mooched back out to the field.
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| vegplot |
A very good point I hadn't considered. |
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| VSS |
Were you thinking of this? www.viableselfsufficiency.co.uk/SC/saddlechariot |
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| Nat S |
isn't that just a forecart? |
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| VSS |
No, its a completely different concept. There is nothing else quite like it. | ||||
| Cathryn |
I wasn't but it looks brilliant. (I was thinking of the conversation we had about you wanting a pony and how the quad wouldbe useless on your mountain.) Anyway, I have the pony, you have the friend.... | ||||
| VSS |
Are you serious Cathryn? A demo could easily be arranged!
We think this piece of kit is really worth promoting. It's ultra safe and ultra pony-friendly and ultra fun! Tim and Rhian have both tried one. Rhian, who is just 7 years old and has no prior pony experience was able to just get on it and go! It gives a whole new lease of life to outgrown kids ponies (that usually end up dying of laminitis and boredom) and is a great way for non-riding members of the family to get involved in equestrian activities. Jolly useful for checking round the sheep, too. |
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| Chez |
Also, the person who is driving (riding?) the one on the website looks like Boudicca - what's not to like?
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| Cathryn |
Not really because we have an even more useless pony who is only 8hh. (I haven't time at the moment to ride my horse.) Has he got the right contacts? It's a smallholders kit in many ways isn't it but there are lots of horse type people who might be interested if you can think of some game type use for it as well. (Racing! Pony club horses who have done games.) Has he considered doing some kind of demo's at the big shows like the Royal Welsh? Putting a little team together? | ||||
| Nat S |
What's different about it to a forecart? 
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| VSS |
The main difference is the safety mechanism, which is unique.
Also, the position of the charioteer means that it only puts about a fifth of the strain on the pony that other vehicles do. Also you can attach loads of implements to the back of it (hoe, harrows, etc. Also, the design is so pony-friendly that most take to it with no further training. At the most, about 2 hours schooling. |
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| Nat S |
You just described a forecart though (minus the safety mechanism, which can be included in the harnessing, as I have done with mine).
It's a good thing, but not 'new' as such. You can also get power forecarts which power the implements too. |
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| The.Grange |
that looks a pretty impressive piece of kit |