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jamanda

Wild flower meadows

Has any-one ever been involved in the establishment of a wild flower meadow?

The Conservators have acquired a piece of land (about 5 acres) which was historically part of the Common but got sold many years ago. It has been used for grazing cows and sheep and is full of course meadow grasses, docks, thistles etc.

One idea is to try and recreate a meadow with rarer native species, maybe one that was particularly good for bees if that was possible.

We need to strip the nutrient rich top-soil of and make an attractive mound with it, then re-seed with finer grasses and finally put in plugs of some of the other plants having selected them for appropriateness for the area and location.

Anyone any words of wisdom?
Cathryn

No words of wisdom but how beautiful it will be.
Barefoot Andrew

You could contact New Mexico's Wildlife Trust - http://www.devonwildlifetrust.org/. They may be happy to share their know-how.
A.
Behemoth

I've been told that the secret isn't in the sowing but in the cutting. Apart from that I'm useless.
gil

What's the organisation that will advise on and supply seed mix native to your area ? One does exist - will see if I can find out.
jamanda

ruby wrote:
No words of wisdom but how beautiful it will be.


Come and see it.
dpack

rob r knows
jamanda

dpack wrote:
rob r knows


I knew someone would. I will await his arrival.
dougal

Find out about Yellow Rattle to control the grass growth...
eg http://www.scotiaseeds.co.uk/Arch0610YRattle.htm
gil

Rob R would know.

For local knowledge about species, talk to a few farmers who have been in the Rural Stewardship Scheme - DEFRA or NFU might tell you who they are.
jamanda

I know what grows on the rest of the common, and you've given me some ideas of other people I could approach.

I'll go down and get some photos before we start. Maybe I could do a long term article on it.
dpack

grazing Wink
Rob R

Hope it's on the high ground Twisted Evil Sorry, I may be inadvertantly ranting about the bloody weather for no apparent reason

Serious answer will be compiled shortly...
gil

dougal wrote:
Find out about Yellow Rattle to control the grass growth...
eg http://www.scotiaseeds.co.uk/Arch0610YRattle.htm


I'd second that, though is it locally native ?

And there are grazing issues to address - need to limit so stock do not graze out tasty herbs.
jamanda

dpack wrote:
grazing Wink


Possibly. But it is common land - must be open to the public.
Rob R

dpack wrote:
grazing Wink


I've got some walking meat pies you can borrow Wink
sean

Rob R wrote:


I've got some walking meat pies you can borrow Wink


My godfather used to have a Hereford bull called 'Meat Pie'.
jamanda

Rob R wrote:
Hope it's on the high ground Twisted Evil Sorry, I may be inadvertantly ranting about the bloody weather for no apparent reason

Serious answer will be compiled shortly...


Nope - right next to the river. floods every year.

Yellow rattle all over the common - will definitely go for that. It's hemi-parasitic don'tcha know? well you probably do know, but not everyone will.
Cathryn

Jamanda wrote:
ruby wrote:
No words of wisdom but how beautiful it will be.


Come and see it.

yer on
xx
dougal

dpack wrote:
grazing Wink
Yes, different types of animals will tend to create habitats favouring different species.
http://www.whitecliffscountryside.org.uk/index.php?id_sec=79&id_sub=3
Rob R

Jamanda wrote:
Rob R wrote:
Hope it's on the high ground Twisted Evil Sorry, I may be inadvertantly ranting about the bloody weather for no apparent reason

Serious answer will be compiled shortly...


Nope - right next to the river. floods every year.


So do I need a diving suit to view it at the moment? Rolling Eyes
sean

Blimey, are you coming to visit too?
Rob R

Yeah, bringing some cows back Laughing
sean

Has that Alison been selling defective cows to people again? I don't know, she seems so nice...
Rob R

I'm sure they are very tasty, now, where's the rifle...
Nick

Rob R wrote:
Yeah, bringing some cows back Laughing


God, why? Do I need to order more wine/beer/scotch?
jamanda

Yes, it is a bit damp at the moment.
It would be nice to see some little black cows on it. All the ones round here are giant black and white ones.
jamanda

I think if we do let a farmer put stock on it it would be more likely to be sheep.
Rob R

A bit damp- sounds good, our 'down by the river' is four foot under atm.
Rob R

Hmmm, well it's a flood plain meadow so trying to create a nutrient deprived habitat is going to be against nature & therefore more difficult. Up & downstream would be the best place to head. Check out: http://www.magic.gov.uk/website/magic/ for neighbouring land in agri-environment schemes & habitat inventories.

Shifting soil about & buying seed can get very expensive, cutting & carting away with little or no aftermath grazing, is the best way to deplete nutrient reserves. The weeds are probably due to overgrazing & poaching in the past, cutting at flowering will weaken them, spraying can knock them back but won't do it on its own. The cheaper & more ecologically sound way to recreate a locally indigenous species rich meadow is to find a local well managed site, allow it to flower & set seed, then direct cut it with a forage harvester & spread the cuttings on the land you want to enhance. Carefully controlled grazing will then create the right competitive conditions for the desirable species to take hold.

There are some very good botanists at English Nature, sorry Natural England, who should be able to offer good advice & possibly even conduct a habitat inventory. The local FWAG may also be worth trying, though ours wasn't all that much use, but the English Nature chap was much better.
jamanda

Rob R wrote:
A bit damp- sounds good, our 'down by the river' is four foot under atm.


Trouble with where you are is that it's not really "down" is it? The road between us and the river is almost vertical (and our favourite pub is at the bottom)

Here's a picture. It's the bit where the telegraph poles are.
jamanda

Thanks for that Rob. The spreading the clippings from another meadow is a good idea. And I will follow up those leads. I've also got a book on the topic by Pam Lewis - saving it for holiday reading.
Rob R

Jamanda wrote:

Trouble with where you are is that it's not really "down" is it?


Down enough! Laughing We're on the top of the hill- only fools live where floods come in through the front door Very Happy

Jamanda wrote:

The road between us and the river is almost vertical (and our favourite pub is at the bottom)


Can well believe it, I remember Porlock!
jamanda

Rob R wrote:

Down enough! Laughing We're on the top of the hill- only fools live where floods come in through the front door Very Happy


Hill? I thought you lived near Selby.
bernie-woman

We have been involved in seeding and plug planting a wild flower meadow in our local nature reserve - one of the things that I would recommend if the land is heavily infested with docks and/or nettles is that you may need to actually spray to kill those first - not very ecologically sound i know but we spent huge amounts of money and time on stripping soil off, seeding etc... and the seeds just didn't have a chance at all as the neetles just came back with a vengeance. From what we were told we should have taken more of the top soil off and/or sprayed. We took the spraying route. Very Happy

Looks a lovely site Very Happy
jamanda

We've already sprayed the Docks. We need to do some Himalayan Balsam pulling by the river's edge too.

What species of plugs did you use?
Green Man

I would strongly advise not stripping away the soil. Very hard work and damaging to the local environment. Several years of letting the grass grow without animal dung or fertiliser will soon see the high fertility drop to its natural one. Cut the grass for hay and remove it so that it does not break down to feed next years grass. If the area is 'tractorable' get a local farmer to cut, make (not in this weather) and take away the hay for stock at the latter end of the season so that the wild flowers you currently have can set and drop seeds. Do soil acidity tests and then contact somebody like this company who are very helpful at matching seeds to your soil type and area. This is who I used for an ungrazeble roadside area I did. Good luck. A 'dabber' weeding wand with ROUNDUP Mad is good for spot treating Ragwart and Docks and a sythe is good for Thistles.
bernie-woman

Jamanda wrote:


What species of plugs did you use?


We have planted allsorts - but the list includes cowslip, filed scabious, primrose. dog violets, oxeye daisy, corncockle, kidney vetch, scabious, betony, selfheal, loosestrife, red campion, evening primrose.

The really great thing is that we got volunteers to sow and grow the primroses, cowslips and evening primrose and have had events where the local community have come and helped plant them all Very Happy
bernie-woman

Cho-ku-ri wrote:
I would strongly advise not stripping away the soil. Very hard work and damaging to the local environment. Several years of letting the grass grow without animal dung or fertiliser will soon see the high fertility drop to its natural one.


I am sorry CKR but that goes against all of the advice we were given by three external organisations - it entirely depends on what the soil fertility is and what is actually growing on it and what you want to grow on it. Yur suggestion may work if the site is virtually all grass at the moment with a few docks, thistles and nettles. As for suggesting a roundup stick for docks we would have gone through hundreds of pounds worth, without taking into account the man hours to do that and strimming or sytheing thistles and nettle does not get rid of them and will not help the establishment of wildflowers Smile
hardworkinghippy

If there are wild boar in the area, they're one of the best animals for increasing plant diversity because they travel for miles, seeds cling to their coats and between their hooves and they grup up areas here and there, leaving bare ground and the opportunity for seeds to develop where the area was previously taken up by established plants.

If there's a stream or any big puddles in the area, they'll use them as wallows, spreading the seeds as they rub themselves dry.

Any cloven hoof animal will help to spread seeds from area to area, so leave the meadow unfenced if you can. Birds and other insects will carry seeds, so try to encourage as much wildlife as possible by making wet zones and helping establish clumps of attracting plants.
Truffle

One of the best methods I've seen is to deep-rip the site, so that the nutrient poor soil down below is brought to the surface and the nutrient rich soil is transfered down-below.
This way you have nutrient-poor conditions for the meadow and the remnants of the 'old' seedbank brought to the surface...and if you want to plant the odd tree/shrub, their roots will penetrate to the nutrient rich layer. So, theoretically you get easier conditions to establish the wild flower meadow and good conditions for growing trees... seems like a good idea?
bernie-woman

Truffle wrote:
One of the best methods I've seen is to deep-rip the site, so that the nutrient poor soil down below is brought to the surface and the nutrient rich soil is transfered down-below.
This way you have nutrient-poor conditions for the meadow and the remnants of the 'old' seedbank brought to the surface...and if you want to plant the odd tree/shrub, their roots will penetrate to the nutrient rich layer. So, theoretically you get easier conditions to establish the wild flower meadow and good conditions for growing trees... seems like a good idea?


This was recommended to us and we did do this where the site allowed us to (i.e where we could get access with a digger) Very Happy
Truffle

bernie-woman wrote:


This was recommended to us and we did do this where the site allowed us to (i.e where we could get access with a digger) Very Happy


Fantastic! hows the site doing?

The meadow at the bottom of our garden was turned over to wild flowers (long before we arrived) and its currently got a rather large population of orchids... looks great Smile
Green Man

If you want a sustainable natural site to develop, then I would suggest letting nature take its course. By not fertilising grass and taking off a late hay crop for a couple of years you will see any un-natural fertility drop rapidly. Bringing in heavy diggers to compact and puddle sub-soil is totally alien, and sub-soiling leaves unnatural scars on the surface of the ground. Plant species that you can see to survive and thrive well in road verges etc. in your area, and as others have suggested let natural animals and birds spread seeds for you. Don't be afraid of Dockings or Thistles as they too are wild flowers and provide much appreciated seeds for the wild birds. If this is a local community project, it will do the children (and adults) good to see just how long (or short) it takes Mother Nature to reclaim land for herself.
Rob R

bernie-woman wrote:
Cho-ku-ri wrote:
I would strongly advise not stripping away the soil. Very hard work and damaging to the local environment. Several years of letting the grass grow without animal dung or fertiliser will soon see the high fertility drop to its natural one.


I am sorry CKR but that goes against all of the advice we were given by three external organisations - it entirely depends on what the soil fertility is and what is actually growing on it and what you want to grow on it. Yur suggestion may work if the site is virtually all grass at the moment with a few docks, thistles and nettles. As for suggesting a roundup stick for docks we would have gone through hundreds of pounds worth, without taking into account the man hours to do that and strimming or sytheing thistles and nettle does not get rid of them and will not help the establishment of wildflowers Smile


He's right, wildflower meadows are a historic feature in the landscape & can be created in just the same way as they were originally. They didn't have chemicals back then, and it took far too much effort to shift soil around. There are sustained & 'quick fix' methods you can employ & public bodies usually go for the latter for the amenity value of 'constructed' wildflower meadows, but that's not a natural feature, which I would favour.
Rob R

Jamanda wrote:
Rob R wrote:

Down enough! Laughing We're on the top of the hill- only fools live where floods come in through the front door Very Happy


Hill? I thought you lived near Selby.


Yeah near Selby, not them daft lot in Barlby, building houses in a hole & them complaining when they flooded.
jamanda

hardworkinghippy wrote:
If there are wild boar in the area, they're one of the best animals for increasing plant diversity because they travel for miles, seeds cling to their coats and between their hooves and they grup up areas here and there, leaving bare ground and the opportunity for seeds to develop where the area was previously taken up by established plants.

If there's a stream or any big puddles in the area, they'll use them as wallows, spreading the seeds as they rub themselves dry.

Any cloven hoof animal will help to spread seeds from area to area, so leave the meadow unfenced if you can. Birds and other insects will carry seeds, so try to encourage as much wildlife as possible by making wet zones and helping establish clumps of attracting plants.


I'll suggest that we introduce wild boar to the area. I'd love to see how that went down Rolling Eyes Laughing (Bear in mind that we've got one person who writes telling us we should round up the adders) I wish we could though. I wonder if we could borrow a pigavator though.
Rob R

Jamanda wrote:
I wonder if we could borrow a pigavator though.


Not a bad idea, localised over the weedy patches (GOS appear to love thistle leaves and roots) & some nice tasting pork at the end of it Cool
gil

Rob R's suggestion of scattering grass/hay from a meadow with the plants you want to encourage was endorsed by someone I saw at the weekend, who's used it to good effect : mow the meadow you want to reseed, then spread the hay on it (very soon after it has been cut).

Other suggestion to exhaust fertility of land : sow a hungry crop like wheat or barley, and harvest. A couple of years running, if you have the time.
jamanda

Thanks. I'll make a report of everyone's suggestions for the next meeting (not till Sept now so keep the ideas coming)
sally_in_wales

At my brother's wedding recently, instead of silly 'favours' they gave everyone a test tube filled with conservation grade wild flower meadow seed.Its supposed to be the right sort of grass plus suitable native flower species for a balanced meadow. Will ask where it came from
pricey

Missed this first time, I was asked at my meeting yesterday to make three small wild flower meadows on site as part of the Nature trail I am making, this is all very useful.
Bodger

Nettles are a sign of human activity on a site, even if it was hundreds of years ago.
I love poppies but again they need the soil to have been disturbed, thats why you suddenly have a fantastic display on a verge one year that has had work carried out on it and then the next nothing.
Ragwort seeds will remain dormant but viable in the soil for decades Mad
Rob R

bodger wrote:

Ragwort seeds will remain dormant but viable in the soil for decades Mad


Yes. Many many plants exist in the 'seed bank' that exists in the soil, just waiting for the right opportunity to grow. It's amazing what can pop up as you change the soil conditions even slightly.
Green Man

Perth Council have created a very beautiful wild flower are in a traffic roundabout. I just about crashed looking at it. Embarassed
jamanda

Just resurrecting this. Can anyone recommend any wild flower seed or plug sellers?
Rob R

Cotswold Seeds we use: http://www.cotswoldseeds.com/environmental.htm
sean

Rob R wrote:
Cotswold Seeds we use:


Do what he says, he's Yoda. Wink
jamanda

Possibly we will. Suggestions any more?
joanne

Mandy - How did you get on with this ? The Bee club are looking to establish a club apiary and we've got possibility of a very nice 5 acre site which has been bought by someone locally who wants to prevent further development in the area

Its a mixed site of woodland and meadow - As he's got absolutely no plans for the site he's very interested in the meadow being turned into a proper wild flower hay meadow - which will be fantastic for our bees

I know about the Yellow Rattle to help weaken the grasses but I'd be interested to hear how you got on
jamanda

Good - We only did a small area, but will be doing a a larger one next year. We took the top soil loff and used the seed company that Rob recommended. We are going to try a section scattered with hay taken from a part of the common with lots of orchids and things next year too.

A few pics here

They are also planting lots of bee friendly stuff up at the apiary and there is a woman who sells seed specially for bees. I'll get her details for you.
joanne

OK thanks - I'd appreciate that - the meadow looks lovely
shaunb

Mandy,

interesting discussion here, go with Rob, ie reduce nutrient levels in soil, Iwas once told the quickest way was to plant spuds????

Anyway, I'd say turn soil by 1 metre if possible, otherwise cut and bail as often as possible until plant diversity is on the up then cut/bail every year(Sep) bail after seed has fallen, if diversity is good. Problem plants such as the dominant dock, thistle and nettle should be zapped with a spray (glyphosate). Sometimes politics outwieghs ecology.
jamanda

shaunb wrote:
Mandy,

interesting discussion here, go with Rob, ie reduce nutrient levels in soil, Iwas once told the quickest way was to plant spuds????

Anyway, I'd say turn soil by 1 metre if possible, otherwise cut and bail as often as possible until plant diversity is on the up then cut/bail every year(Sep) bail after seed has fallen, if diversity is good. Problem plants such as the dominant dock, thistle and nettle should be zapped with a spray (glyphosate). Sometimes politics outwieghs ecology.


Done all that chuck - but nice to hear from you anyway.
shaunb

I've just had a look at the before and after pics, stunning.

Did you manage to reduce the nutrient levels in the soil?
If not have you had any problem species coming through and dominating yet?

I'm currently working with a school and they've agreed to allow me to plough about a quarter of their playing field and reseed with a local wildflower mix. I'm concerned that because the soil is quite rich we'll be inundated with 'weeds' (whatever they are).

cheers
shaun
shaunb

Returning to the original post the only other thing I'd say is that some ecologists get very cross when even suggesting reintroducing seed onto a site. They have a point, and suggest the long term option of continual but gradual nutrient reduction via cutting and allowing the area to re diversify itself from local stock. This method has been tried and tested at Denmark Farm, Lampeter, although it can take up to 10 years depending upon your starting nutrient levels.
The problem here however is that of politics, alot of people and funding sources aren't prepared to wait up to 10 years and as such you have to speed things up a little.

There are a few good websites worth having a look at,

Landlife www.landlife.org.uk
Emorsgate www.wildseed.co.uk
Shared Earth Trust www.shared-earth-trust.org.uk
Grasslands Trust www.grasslands-trust.org
Silas

Don't know if this may help, it is a project very close to where I live - it is now maturing very niceley and is a lovley place to visit.

http://www.derrington.org.uk/index.html
jamanda

We tried to reduce the fertility by removing a foot or so of topsoil.

I'll go and have a look tomorrow and see if anything interesting or nasty is poking its head up head.
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