| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Barefoot Andrew |
Would you live in co-housing?By "co-housing" I mean a small community, featuring private living quarters but with communal spaces for cooking, shared meals etc. Community participants take a share in the running and administration of the place.It's an idea that has interested - or rather intrigued - me for a while. Despite the emotional turbulence I thought the Castaway 2000 community was an appealing idea. Meanwhile, not quite the same thing, but the Strawbridge household from INEBG seems perpetually bustling with loads of people (on telly at least). Would you consider it? Or do you value the sanctuary of entirely private space? A. |
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| judith |
No, not me, not on your nellie, never in a million years, absolutely not! 
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| Northern_Lad |
Like Judith, I'm a maybe. 
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| Barefoot Andrew |
I feel a poll coming on...
A. |
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| Jamanda |
Done it. It was called a student hall of residence.
Escaped after one year to private landlord land. It's a lovely idea in theory but there will always be some git who won't do any washing up and drinks everyone else's milk. |
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| Mary-Jane |
Me neither. Never, never, never. Not ever. Never. No. |
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| Mary-Jane |
I think that's called having children... |
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| judith |
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| jamsam |
so, its me, my rabble and andrew so far for the Downsizer House !!! | ||||||||
| Northern_Lad |
What the 3 ladies (who I wouldn't object to sharing a house with, but I dare say they've got some colourful comments on the idea) fail to recognise is that they are already living in such a situation. | ||||||||
| judith |
That's only part-time though. For 7 - 8 months of the year I get time off for good behaviour during the week. |
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| Jamanda |
No. Because there are no private living quaters. All parts of the house are shared by everyone. (Even the small one who doesn't do the washing up and drinks all the milk) |
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| Northern_Lad |
Really? Sean told us you'd booted him out and were making him sleep in the wood-pile. Is this not true? If not, then I want my blanket back! | ||||||||
| Jamanda |
Naw, the chiggypigs complained about the snoring. |
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| sean |
Pah, it's a well known fact that I snore like a little tiny delicate mouse whereas you snore like a herd of elephants. Just ask Ben. | ||||||||
| Fee |
Yeah, sounds like student-living to me too! Having lived like that for 4 years, I have no desire to return to it. That was in shared houses rather than Halls.
I'd quite like to share land with friends, but have seperate houses, that really does appeal to me quite a lot and it's something that's been gas-bagged about a far amount with a few of our friends. I like my personal space too much these days, not everyone would appreciate me eating my dinner in knickers and bra
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| Fee |
(and that's on a good day  )
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| Brownbear |
Oh dear God no.
'Who ate my sausages?' 'Will whoever owns that leftover curry please deal with it, it's growing fur.' 'Well there were ten slices left in that loaf this morning and now there are only nine.' 'That floor doesn't need mopping yet. I can still see the pattern.' |
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| marigold |
NO! I am not a herd animal .
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| Andy B |
I bet you have to be very careful with hot food! |
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| 2steps |
No, don't think I'd like it | ||||||||
| Fee |
I just have to balance the plate on my boobs
...just remembered an old party trick, used to be able to balance two pints on them, bending backward, wonder if I still can...doubt it 
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| Frewen |
Lived in the housing co-op on Mill Road for a little bit - shared living / cooking space - private sleeping quarters.
Nursing accomodation of old was very similar too and spent about 5 years living in those. It was ok as a late teen and during my early 20's. I am not so sure I would want to now - having a husband and children somewhat changes ones perspective of reasonable hours and noise. 
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| Andy B |
You should post some pics! |
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| Fee |
I have got some old pics somewhere, but I can't find any of my film photographs 
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| mochyn |
Been there, done that. Wouldn;t do it again.
However, I've often fantasised about a 'village' with separate houses and shared land. |
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| 2steps |
I'd like that
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| mochyn |
OK that's you and me, 2steps: who else?
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| lettucewoman |
I like that idea - mind you almost live in it except the land belongs to the park owners!! Seriously - we have a small piece of land here which belongs to the park owners which they keep saying they are doing to do somethingwith but they don't - I have already asked the other owners if we could do something withit if the park owners would rent it to us -apparently it *used* to be allotments about 20 years ago! Don't suppose they will though - and I guess organising who does what on the land might be difficult...
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| Fee |
Me
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| Andrea |
We host wwoofers, which means that there's almost always someone sharing our space. Sometimes it's great, sometimes I could quite happilly commit murder for some privacy. Of course the difference between what we do & community living is that it's actually our space & ultimately we have the final say on what's acceptable & what isn't!
I think I'd manage in a community environment providing I had some private space, though I think OH would struggle more as sometimes he just needs space. Several families keeping their own private homes but sharing workload sounds a more attractive option. |
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| Blue Peter |
Don't you think that you'd have exactly the same difficulties with shared land as with shared other facilities? WHo hasn't done the weeding? muck-spreading? who's let their animals in that bit? etc. Peter. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
Maybe you'd fit in at an Alex Comfort type commune...
Maybe not. A. |
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| Barefoot Andrew |
So... Jamsam's Downsizer House sounds fun but it does seem like Nellie wins the vote.
Shared land though... now there's an idea! A. |
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| Treacodactyl |
I think that's cropped up before in a previous thread. I like the idea of sharing land but only with the right sort of people. I think most people have worked with a mix of people, some who pull their weight and others happy to let other people do the work. I'm not sure how a truly shared ownership solve these problems so I would be happier where people owned pieces and then shared the whole or if I owned the land and shared it in a mutually beneficial arrangement. |
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| Andrea |
I don't think you'd have the same difficulties because work left undone of shared land is not as personal as someone not doing their share in your home. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I get really grotty when someone leaves crumbs all over the table after lunch but can shrug off work left undone outside, even though the first takes seconds to remedy & the second can be really disruptive. |
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| Mrs Fiddlesticks |
hmm have some reservations.
As others have said having kids brings a whole new meaning to privacy -thank goodness my two have grown out of needing to come in to the loo with me (and if anyone is still going through that phase of toddlerhood you have my sympathy)
I've grown to really like peace and quiet and am happy sharing with those I love but not sure about others. Its a boundary thing Quite like the idea of shared land if it meant the combined buying power got everyone nearer a self sufficiency dream than would otherwise be the case but I share TD's reservation about shared workload. I did wonder a bit about it when I was a single mum as I thought we'd feel more secure with others around and if I was on my own now I might think about it again. Not against sheltered accomodation when elderly for example is a very good idea -assuming I'm here last of course. |
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| Blue Peter |
What about if another owned the land and shared it in a mutually beneficial arrangement? Peter. |
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| Treacodactyl |
I think I would be happier with that as at least you know where you stand. However, at the moment I'm more likely to be the one owning the land and sharing so I tend to think from that perspective. If I ever find a place I'm happy with there should be plenty to share with the right sort of people. |
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| jema |
I do like the more villagey ideas, a community where you have your own space and land, but where there is a lot of communal facilities and a benign cycle of internal trade that keeps the resources of the community growing. | ||||||||
| Blue Peter |
I'm not judging (since I think that most people would prefer to be in that position), but it came across rather like, "I'd be happy as long as I was in charge" . And I think that that is the problem with shared stuff, you need to do an awful lot of work to get the sharing correct and for everyone to be happy. It's probably easier if each owns their own and people co-operate.
Are there any long-term examples of real sharing of land? Not a bit of common land, but going the whole hog and everything shared for a significant period (50 years+)? Peter. |
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| jamsam |
yep, look up camphill communities or L'arche communities. There is also Tipi valley, tinkers bubble and plenty of european communities that work or have worked for long periods.
www.diggersanddreamers.org.uk |
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| Blue Peter |
The only one I know of vaguely is Tinker's Bubble and the sharing there has been difficult to say the least, Peter. |
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| lottie |
When my D.H. was allotments secretary he was approached by a community group for some plots they could grow communally and improve their diet etc----what a recipe for disaster that was---hours spent in pointless discussion ---little done---and then stuff that 2 blokes had slaved on being taken by lynn franks types who'd done nothing----when it all collapsed as was inevitable D.H. quietly offered the 2 blokes a plot each and as far as I know they are happily there still working hard on their own plot to feed their own families making their own decisions about what they grow. | ||||||||
| mochyn |
At least with shared land (whatever the ownership_ you don't get the 'Who ate my sausage?' problem.
What I mean, I think, is a village where people co-operate more: it happens to an extent here already, if X needs some bales carting or whatever lots of people turn out to help and X then does the reciprocal, on a larger scale. I'm not explaining myself very well today, but I know what I mean. |
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| Blue Peter |
If I read Lottie's account correctly, it seems you do.
Do you mean a situation where each unit has total control over a given area of land, but because they're all nice people, everyone pitches in when any unit wants to raise a barn, or whatever? I think that's probably the ideal situation, and what I get the impression tends to happen in peasant-agrarian societies (but anyone with any knowledge might want to put me straight on that), Peter. |
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| hamster |
I think I know what you mean!
I wouldn't choose to live communally, but if it became necessary in a post-oil world I think I could live in communal housing or have shared land as long as people worked together and I had some say over who I lived with... I didn't mind living in halls as the people sharing my kitchen were nice, but my boyfriend's ex-housemate was a total psycho-nutter and living with her for just two months sent me stark, staring mad. Living in a wider family group (mine or bf's) or with like-minded people would be okay, as long as we all had some personal space - say, our own bedrooms, but communal kitchens, living areas, bathrooms - and there was frequent communication about what we were aiming for and what our responsibilities were (if that doesn't sound like management-speak). |
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| 2steps |
I know what you mean  people who are particular good at things but bad at others could trade jobs and make enough to go round
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| mochyn |
Yes, I think that's a big part of it for me. Skill-trading/sharing. And Peter: I think you're right about the peasant societies thing. I'd be happy to do a lot of the baking (for example) if other people were happy doing the woodwork (for example) at which I am crap. Doesn't mean other people can't do baking, but they could choose to have 'communal bread' if they liked or hadn't time to bake their own. |
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| judith |
Isn't this called "a village"? | ||||||||
| lottie |
The type of thing Mochyn described actually worked very well on a small scale on allotments----everyone had their own plot with control over it---but if a shed/greenhouse fence was being erected people always helped, plants/seeds/produce/jams/wine/chutney etc were swapped and shared---If someone had a germination failure spare seedlings would always be found, if someone was away/ill people checked/watered their plot---thats the type of communal effort and sharing I like--- but when nobody had anything that was their own it didn't work at all. | ||||||||
| Cathryn |
I couldn't but one of my closest friends lives this way. It seems to work exceptionally well for all those who choose it.
Their intention had been to keep buying properties to expand and give plenty of options for all those living there... Then house prices hit the roof
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| wellington womble |
Nope - I'm another Nellie. I absolutely loathe systems run by commitee, and the people that choose this sort of lifestyle are (in my subjective experience) almost always terrible at organising and getting things done. I'm happy to share stuff, but on any scale it has to be set out with terms and conditions agreed by both parties. I would much, much rather simply pay for something and where agreed terms are set out, than share something woolly for nothing. It always ends in tears. | ||||||||
| Gervase |
Absolutely not! In my experience, such experiments are always ruined by bone-idle freeloaders who expect everyone else to do the work, and who complain about bad karma or some such boswellox whenever someone asks them to do a hand's turn. The place looks like a midden because it's always someone else's job to clean up and sort out even basic hygiene; the real grafters soon get pissed off while the bullshitters and freeloaders cram the committee and spend their time talking rathing than doing, and any attempt to organise or to encourage self-discipline is seen as authoritarian or 'fascist'.
Frankly, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes and crawl over broken bottles than endure such a set-up. And, as many will testify, I'm an unusally tolerant sort of chap.
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| Mary-Jane |
Of course you are dwarling...can I tickle you under the chin now please?
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| dpack |
i live in troll towers
we work as a community |
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| lottie |
That's what I was trying to say---but you do it so much elegantly |
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| Treacodactyl |
"I'd be happy as long as I was in charge", I think that does sum me up, and most other people if their honest. Thinking about it I think it's a good starting point, i.e. everyone own their own patch, and things could change over time.
Perhaps an "ideal village" but even in some of the more friendly places I've grown up in you still get the same sort of mix, i.e. a few who do a load of work for everyone, a few who think they do but don't do anything of use and and increasing amount of people who take as much as possible and not give anything back. Now if everyone could select who lived in your village then perhaps we're on to something, again I think that idea has been mentioned before. I often think there should be more done by the local council on a local level to bring people together but I doubt it will ever happen in many areas until it has to be done. |
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| JB |
Of course as soon as you try and create a community like that you'll probably find that you get a dozen web site designers and crystal therapists for every one person who is willing and able to repair the drains! |
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| Blue Peter |
Yes, I think that you're right, that's what most people want, which is why the option with you or me in charge (and therefore everyone else getting the opposite of what they want) tends not to be very popular and requires Baron Treaco to keep extremely close tabs on his serfs
If you go the other option, why would things have to change over time? Do you mean that Baron Treaco would only gradually assert his authority in a bloodless coup?
Peter. |
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| Andy B |
So to sum up, you not so sure its a good idea then? |
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| Treacodactyl |
I quite like the sound of Baron von Treaco. 
The idea of things changing over time would be like this: several people would each own their house and a few acres. Jobs can be shared and if everyone gets on then perhaps the land could move to a more formal shared ownership so it would be truly shared. Again I could see problems with what happens if some people don't get on. |
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| tahir |
http://www.gwiep.net/period/ic166305.htm | ||||||||
| Yarrow |
very nearly moved to Coventry Peace House last year, a co-op of 6 houses. We were accepted, just saying goodbye to friends when we realised the good woman were pregnant! Only one room available so we had to turn it down. (cosmic man, masta bin meant to be..) a real shame because it was a proactive community, not a 'dropout' commune-type thing. | ||||||||
| JB |
How did they ensure the community would be 'proactive'? Short of having someone administering the whole thing and setting entry criteria but that then starts to make the whole thing sound a bit feudal. |
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| Blue Peter |
Baron, Why would you want to move to "truly shared". What benefit would this have if the other system was working? Serf Peter. |
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| Northern_Lad |
Gettin miffed at them copying everything we talk about now...BBC | ||||||||
| Fee |
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| Treacodactyl |
Does this mean your web serfing?
Why move to truly shared? For lots of reasons. Although you might co-operate and help out with each other's patches you might decide one persons land is more suited to one thing and another's to something else. It might also help to motivate people know if they jointly owned the land. |
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| Yarrow |
strange, I came over a bit rastafarian there... the site (Coventry peace house) serves as a peace and environmental centre, runs a bicycle service and holds meetings for campaign groups. Can't help but think having a common unity between said neighbours is a precursor to living in such an environment. Having written that, I remember just the other day Ed Deedigan pointed out to me the link between 'common unity' and 'community'. I don't know about the etymological(?) veracity of that, but it makes me smile.
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| gnome |
it can work - but there has to be rules. yeah - i know, i used to be an anarchist myself, but it didn't work.. all my friends were also anarchists, so they wouldn't do what i told 'em.
seriously though, that is the main drawback - most people that set up these communities are idealists, and think that everyone else is as responsible and dedicated to their beliefs as they are. lazy people dont always think of themselves as lazy - and those that do dont care. as a result you frequently get two or three people who do most of the work, and a whole bunch who all think they are doing more than their share, but aren't. not everyone has the same skills, and not everyone has the same energy levels. i knew of one community that did away with money and the concept of payment within the community - instead they had a reward system of awarding bells (don't laugh). of course, washing the dishes earned very few bells because it was unskilled labour, whereas a 30 minute reiki massage "cost" a great many bells because the practitioner had to go on a long trek to India to learn his skills. oh allright then - laugh. i did. i've not presented a good example have i? |
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| Andrea |
At least you got some bells. You get bugger all around here for washing dishes, not even a quick round of applause. |
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| Slim |
I could definitely go for it. But only with the right people. And with plenty of group meetings and a way to ensure that everyone is doing their full share.
I would envision something like a small grouping of houses with maybe a communal building with living space, kitchen space, etc... All could share in a work shop, farming, saunaing (not so ridiculous to heat up if it's being utilized by a good number), cooking, cleaning, etc.... Try to maximize the benefits without the bits that usually lead to trouble. |
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| jamsam |
i have a plan. Im planning to win the lottery and buy the site where i used to work ( 3 seperate houses, two houses containing 3 flats in oone and 5 in another). i will then build a swimming pool and rebuild the farm ( it burned down). Then it would be a working farm-come-colony for stressed single parents-come-campsite.
what do you think?? mad?? |
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| Blue Peter |
I would think that that's a very good example. I would suspect that either there was an awful lot of unwashed dishes, or the reiki masseur didn't have very many customers...and the whole thing fell apart? Peter. Edit: Typo |
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| Brownbear |
What a polite way of saying "Some people are bone idle". |