| Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption |
| Yarrow |
Your views needed- Social CentreSo we're thinking of setting up a new Social centre in wiltshire. The services it would provide include:A vegan kitchen making fry-ups, sarnies etc. A bicycle workshop An IT garage Gardening for community members Leaf and compostables collection Foraging and yoga classes A clotheshop making beanbags, ragrugs, modding t-shirts etc. A film night, showing copyleft movies Meeting space for local groups What do you all think? Would you be interested? Would any of these services benefit you, or are there others you can think of? Would you consider spending time at such a place, helping your community? Do you think it is a foolish pipe dream? |
||||||
| tahir |
Who's "we"? | ||||||
| Penny |
Would it have to be a vegan kitchen? Sounds like a very interesting idea. | ||||||
| Yarrow |
We are the local affinity group for setting up a social centre (surprise!).
Being a vegan, yes it would. Besides, IMHO one of the defining characteristics of a good community is working for mutual benefit, and as far as I can see a vegan kitchen is a good step in that direction. Not to sound too 'preachy', I hope? Because no doubt I would to some if I said that capitalising on anothers' loss (indeed causing a loss) goes against the grain. |
||||||
| tahir |
Sorry, what does that mean? |
||||||
| MarkS |
and where is the funding coming from? | ||||||
| sally_in_wales |
Funding is an important issue, you'll have a scary amount of legal requirements like insurance, waste disposal and stuff of that ilk to pay for, and even if its being run largely by a community for the community, you may find that the authorities require it to be run as a business with all the risks, admin and accountability that goes with that. Its entirely possible that although a large number of people express initial interest, in twelve months time just a handful are left doing all the work. Doesnt mean it can't work, just that the planningstage is critical and needs to take account of all of these issues and plan for ones that may arise. | ||||||
| RichardW |
Your plan is going to turn away a large portion of the population. As its for the community it should represent the communities habits. You can still keep your ideals without forcing others to comply.
Justme |
||||||
| cab |
Agreed. I got as far as 'vegan kitchen' and I already know I'm excluded. |
||||||
| tahir |
I've got no issues with a vegan kitchen, still don't understand who it is setting it up though | ||||||
| Penny |
Me too I'm afraid  Which is probably a very bad judgemental thought on my part, but the truth nevertheless.
|
||||||
| hedgewitch |
Without knowing more details about the community Yarrow is living in, this is difficult to say. I have seen vegan cafes flourish at the heart of communities where vegan and vegetarian diet was a shared value of most people. And it need not exclude people - that is about the attitudes of the people involved more than anything I think. |
||||||
| tahir |
Agree |
||||||
| toggle |
and most poeple are fine about eating vegan food as long as it is done well. Good food will advertise itself. |
||||||
| hedgehogpie |
Sounds intersting Yarrow, although I'm nowhere near your area I'd be curious to see how it goes. I'm involved with a new green charity that aims to work within communities on projects exactly like this so it's always good to hear about new stuff setting up.
As to the vegan cafe, as an open minded omnivore I'd have no problem with it. |
||||||
| cab |
And its the fact that the first statement, the first line, is vegan cafe. That, at the top of the list, makes me feel unwelcome. I don't have any issues with veban food, its just that if its right there saying VEGAN then I'm rather put off right at the start. |
||||||
| JB |
I would have no problem with a vegetarian (or possibly even vegan) cafe. But the moment you set up sucha facility to be exclusively vegan you are sending out a message about the rest of your activities which may not be accurate. A lot of people would feel excluded and any message about gardening / bicycling / any other downsizery activity would be lost (or at least reach far fewer people than it might).
Purely in order to reach more people I would suggest dropping the requirement for the catering to be vegan. |
||||||
| toggle |
A suggestion would be to run a vegetarian cafe, that has regular vegan nights. like bonningtons does. | ||||||
| JB |
Or just set up a regular cafe and make the meat options the minority in the way that most regular cafes would have the vegetarian options the minority. Then you can't send out a message that "we're knit your own yoghurt, hippy eco loonies" | ||||||
| sally_in_wales |
I suppose its how the cafe is 'marketed' that could make the difference, there is a world of difference between a cafe that just happens to have every item on its menu made to vegan recipes, and a cafe 'for Vegans'. I'd be delighted to explore the menu at the first, I'd feel unsure if I was welcome at the second. | ||||||
| jema |
Agreed, and there is no need even for what meat is done to be of the eat half a cow variety of recipe. I don't see the point of calling something a community resource, whilst building it around an exclusive set of beliefs. |
||||||
| hamster |
It's also down to the people working in the cafe and preparing the food. Again, we need to know who 'we' are (the people setting it up)!
If they're all vegan then they should cook and serve what they want, but personally I would be put off getting involved with the running of the organisation if I felt it would be a prerequisite to eat a certain way. You might risk putting off people who would be willing to help out if they feel they can't cook a dish that had free range eggs in or something. A food co-op near me had some fairly strident views expressed on its website by the key members about having 'bits of dead animal' at the market and have to 'rub shoulders with the happy meat brigade'. I don't mind what they choose to eat or buy, but I would love to be involved with a local food co-op and I was put off because I didn't feel I would be welcomed by people who had such narrow-minded opinions and used such emotive language. So my advice would be that it sounds like a great idea and I wish you all the best with it, but go with the consensus of the people running it. If you're all vegan and think there's a market for a vegan cafe then go for it, but don't risk putting off people who might be enthusiastic and prepared to commit their time and energy. |
||||||
| gil |
From past experience, I'd reiterate what Sally said on the first page about funding (for set-up and for ongoing running/maintenance of facilities), and how you're going to organise it. Ditto coping with the fall-off in enthusiasm as time goes on. It can be done, but it takes a lot of commitment from at least a core group of people.
Whether it works out or not also depends on who the intended 'community' is. |
||||||
| Slim |
I've always wanted a community center with a tool share (though that could understandably run into some liability issues, maybe just one hell of a contract signing away your right to sue?) and a toy share for young families. | ||||||
| Yarrow |
tool share is a great idea. I like that 
That's really more the sort of message coming from the viewer, methinks. Good point about differentiation though, Sally. But if people are to feel excluded by the word vegan, that is an issue I can only deal with by removing those 5 letters. Really, that is more something in the observers head than anything else. If you 'know' you're excluded because a certain group of people only eat 85% of the range of food you eat, you are beyond the help of this particular project. For legality and such, social centres are run as a voluntary enterprise out of a homestead, with informal services available between friends. For more info see: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_center www.wombles.org.uk/scn/ The 'we' is a group of young, ethically minded persons, many (not all) vegetarian or vegan. Ditto anti-capitalist, ditto interested in various aspects of social justice. Obviously, there is no pressure to eat a certain way, it's just the food prepared there will as a rule contain no meat or dairy. Obviously, ALL discriminations must be left at the door (ie. feel free to think what you like, just don't press it on anyone else). |
||||||
| RichardW |
Is that as a RULE or in general meat wont be offered but some time it will be or a very limited choice? Can a vegan restaurant cook / serve meat? Justme |
||||||
| Yarrow |
As a rule, ie no meat. Not really much of a problem for omnivores i think, I mean I like a drink but i don't expect it everywhere I go. | ||||||
| Behemoth |
This lot may be able to help:
http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk |
||||||
| cab |
You put it right there in the first line, like its the most important thing. Its the headline. You're saying straight off 'this is for vegans', and if you don't see why that sends the message that non-vegans aren't welcome then you really do need to take a step back and think about it. I'd eat at a vegan place. Heck, I do eat at a vegan place sometimes. But I wouldn't immediately rush to a place that says I'm not part of the community by saying in the first line that its for vegans. In doing so you're de-valuing the rest of the messages there. Or are you not interested in people who aren't vegans coming and taking part in the other activities?
You mean its a community where people don't exchange views on ethics? Its an ethical community that doesn't address or discuss ethics, where people with different ethical stances are discouraged from echanges? Stick to the common sense practical skills aspect. Ditch the whole vegan aspect, because it doesn't in any way link in with the mutual respect part that you're trying to raise further on. You're saying 'we respect others views, but heres our up-front message; we want vegans'. |
||||||
| Helen_A |
OK - well apart from anything else, keeping the kitchen veg*n makes it a darn sight easier to comply with the food hygiene regs, and means that the pli on that portion is about half....
You need to take a trip to The Forest in Edinburgh  They are pretty much what you describe http://www.theforest.org.uk/
Helen_A |
||||||
| john of wessex |
There is at least one excellent local cafe that is 'de facto' vegetarian, although it does not advertise the fact.
What does bother me though is that by defining yourself as vegan you can get caught up in a lot of vegan angst and infighting. One Vegan Society AGM, was reported to have ended after the Police had to be called when fighting broke out over the mousetraps used in a Soya Milk factory.................... |
||||||
| toggle |
I went on a camp with my son's youth group, a greenish, socialist-ish org. We had a huge screaming row about the recycling of plastic milk bottles at 3am one morning and woke up half of the kids | ||||||
| Helen_A |
Sorry - urban myth that one. Although there has recently been a bit of kerfuffle over Ecover. Great UM though, lol. Helen_A (yes I'm a VS member, but mainly for commercial reasons and so I can irritate from within cos that's more fun and effective... )
|
||||||
| Yarrow |
The kitchen would state that no meat or dairy is prepared there, the centre is not for vegans any more than it is for racial minorities. But we're not saying 'this is for vegans', it was merely the first thing in a list on a forum. And vegans do not exclude meat eaters. I'm sure you eat pure vegan food all the time, no?
No, I mean discussion is welcome. But judgement on another's worth is right out. Some militant veges might have trouble with that, but c'est la vie. You can't always get what you want. And besides, the only vegan aspect is the hemp milk in the tea. Behemoth, the common place is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. In fact, me and a friend are building a network to link the UK social centre scene together. Never heard of the forest before though! Thnx Helen. Unfortunate that this whole thing turned into a 'vegan' issue though. The problem is, how do we attract a segment of the community if we can't speak their name without turning people off like this? Vegans must really have a bad name. |
||||||
| Yarrow |
Letter to Justme:
|
||||||
| RichardW |
Hi,
Just that most people will feel that the type of kitchen will be synominous with the type of person that will be welcome in the center. I would be happy eating a vegitarian meal but would not go to a vegitarian restaurant & deff not a vegan one unless in the company of some one that wanted to do so (which is sad as I know I would enjoy both). i suppose you could liken it to the community centers in my old town. Most have ethnic kitchens (which again I would love to eat in) but I would not go to the center as I would feel unwelcome even though they are not ethnic centers but just standard council run local community ones. I suppose just teh same as a vegitarian / vegan would not like to go to a meat only restaurant (infact I am sure that it would be discriminatory to have no meat or no veg options in a community center, you must cater for all). If you were setting up a center for vegans that would be different. Justme |
||||||
| Yarrow |
Interesting. One point right now though, and that is-
I don't feel it is at all discriminatory to serve food without meat, as a) meat can be got anywhere, vegan food can't, and b) no-one would suffer as a result of a lack of meat on the menu. |
||||||
| RichardW |
You could turn that round & say that vegitarian food can be found easily too you just have to go to your local suppermarket to get a basket full. I guess its an argument that neither side wants to start as both will loose out in the end by having to offer both. Only trouble is the antidiscriminatory rules are not interprited by you but by the courts. They will only rule once some one has complained. If some one complains then almost deff that discrimination has taken place as its about how people FEEL not how things realy are. But they I have just been on loads of training for this "crap" so I could be too close to the wood to see the trees. LOL I thought that it was interesting that the meat eaters mostly all felt excluded. Do you feel excluded by standard restaurants, clubs, social events that dont offer vegan alternatives? & would you go to an event that you knew would not cater for your needs / wants / desires? |
||||||
| Yarrow |
Two things- Being a vegan, I often find myself at events where I cannot eat or even drink anything. Most pubs, for example. But being a minority, I have come to expect that. That accounts for a fair amount of this problem, I think- meat eaters are a majority in most places (as are most people), and are unused to feeling left out.
Secondly, most meat-eaters are omnivorous, and as such their needs are being catered for. Demanding meat is like demanding alcohol in a cafe. would you agree? Also, just reading a post on how to cut down on littering. Any ideas? |
||||||
| RichardW |
I actualy agree with you about the lack / crap vegitarian / vegan food avaliable. I guess its less about what we eat & more that it seemed that the vegan bit was the ethos of the group rarther than a side event. I guess it will come down to the spin you put on the marketing of the group / food as to who / what type of person will want to attend. Also what other sort of things will you be doing/ Will they be "vegan" too? Would the group be upset if people brought in their own meat or did activities that would be seen as non vegan (dont know if there is such a thing in reality cos as a meat eater I dont know much about the different levels of vegitrianisum suppose all we know is what the media & famous people say / do)
Littering well now thats a whole different thing. I blame the parents. Start young & keep on at them. Make them go back & pick it up, NEVER do it your self, point out all the litter lying around. Keep doing that for 10 years & you should have a child that wont litter. I have 3 that wont litter & moan about others that do. I ahev alos helped raise more children (we foster) & they all tend to come as litterers & leave as non litterers. You just have to show ther there is another way. Just the same as they all come & sort problems with violence & leave sorting things in a whole new way. |
||||||
| Yarrow |
I understand your point about the perception of ethos. Indeed, the kitchen would not be advertised as vegan, rather it would be pointed out on the menu that tea contains hemp milk, sausages are vege etc. However, I know that if a vegan sees something advertised that doesn't say vegan, they'll assume there is a small range for them to enjoy. Also, we want to recognise, and not be afraid to say, the names and deeds of all communities. What would be a good way of getting the word out there, without scaring off people?
As for the group, a basic tenet is respect. So vegans can eat in a 'clean' kitchen, and anyone else can express themselves in any way they like, as long as they don't repress the rights of others. Which in this case means, you're welcome to bring or eat meat on site, you just can't cook it. What other areas can you think of that might be of concern here? All I've got is pets and fresh wool for clothes. Which I don't think would be an issue, personally. Whilst we're on the subject, there are not different levels of vegetarianism so much as there are hues. Some people would wear their last bit of leather out before throwing it away, others would give it away. Others would destroy it, and others would find that disrespectful. Vegans are an area of people, just like drivers or the unemployed. Some do it because they like it, some because there is no other way. Incidentally, Woody Harrelson is vegan! Didn't know that until earlier. The generational trick is clearly the key to littering, but I'm thinking about things to affect people now. Perhaps if we know persistent litterers, we could follow them round, pick up their trash and post it back to them with a letter? |
||||||
| RichardW |
I guess thats how meat eaters feel too (even if misguided). So if both sides can respect each other views were sorted. justme |
||||||
| Behemoth |
Unless it's a public service any such 'community' centre as proposed by Yarrow is likely to be a private members club or society type thing, so it can constitute itself how it likes, even though it may be open to all and sundry.
I can't see why having a vegan cafe should be such an issue. If they were offering films to watch, some live music, bike repair workshops, permaculture seminars, discussion re local planning decisisions and I happened to go and I happened to be hungry and the cafe happened to be vegan, I'm sure I could find something to eat and not worry too much about it. Would I go there specifically for a meal, probably not. Would it stop me going, no. |
||||||
| Yarrow |
I agree with you, alienation is never a good thing. Not even exiling murderers. But how can we include a demographic whose name we can't speak for fear of frightening others away?
Beautifully put, Behemoth. I see you baby, shakin' that ass! |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
I wouldn't have thought that people here would mind going to a place that served food that is advertised as Vegan.
I'm surprised! The people who responded with 'you think vegan - you think (soy) yogurt weavers' I think of everyone here as yogurt weavers - as that is what you do, innit? Lots of you knit, forage, do downsizery things - all these things are often linked with hippies, which can be linked with vegans. I don't understand why you are turned off by the word vegan because you think it exludes you, when personally, I see it as something that would embrace you as fellow hippies! : ) |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
also the 'type of person' who would walk through the doors would be interested in things like permaculture, etc might look less chavish than the rest of the townsfolk and would portray an image that 'the cafe is probably vegetarian anyway' lol
|
||||||
| goldy1 |
I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if C.A.T. has been mentioned yet but I understand they run a very sucseful vegetatian cafe. http://www.cat.org.uk/qsqc/qsqc.tmpl?sku=qsqc_menu
Although I din't see anywhere actualy say it was vegge. I ate at the cafe in the centere and it was very nice I am neither a vegge or vegan but I enjoyed the food. It wouldn't put me off going in to a Vegan cafe as long as the pricing was fair. I see a lot of these places over priced just because of what they are, And that is what stops me from going in. |
||||||
| RichardW |
I think that was the point. We might be yoghurt kniters but you realy dont want / need to preach to the converted. You want to spread the message to new people so any thing that puts them off is a bad idea. Justme |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
I see. yeah. what about the word vegan written in gold that looks Well bling, and paint every thing black and pay handsome youths to stand outside whilst talking on their iphones whilst drinking tea with no milk. |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
actually you could just have a nice outdoor area - where anyone can sit down, and a plain wall in the back where it's free to grafitti on hehe : ) so you can have old men with an interest in walking stick crafts being covered in spray of the youngsters grafitti canisters - ahh the ideal modern community! | ||||||
| Yarrow |
I like that hindu thing of not converting others, but rather having pride in your heart. So it's not really about spreading any message as much as it is strengthening and joining communities. Vegans are just a part of that, mainly because a lot of them are gardeners and most of them are socially/politically aware.
But where are all those people who said the word 'vegan' puts them off! We need their advice! How can we appeal to you and to vegans? |
||||||
| snozzer |
I am really finding it difficult to understand why it has to be a vegan cafe at all?
If such a centre opened, I would imagine it failing pretty quickly as it really does not send an inclusive message. The message I hear is "We are vegan and so should you be..." Why not just run Vegan Days, Veggie Days, Lamb Days, Pork days etc etc, advertise them well in advance and you are much more likely to find the broader community engaging with it. |
||||||
| Yarrow |
It has to be a vegan kitchen (not cafe, as in constantly serving food) because I want no part in the slaughter of animals for food or pleasure.
The message you hear is not there, it is in your head. If you went to your local community centre and realised they didn't serve meat or milk, would you really feel excluded? I'm sure everyone has things they feel strongly about, things that they accept in others but that they would not take part in themselves. This is one of those things. I really am trying to be accomodating (as little as it may seem), but a lot of people seem to either think the place will be called "Vegan Food" or are genuinely alienated by a kitchen with no meat. I persevere because I'm sure the case is more one of misunderstanding my original post. |
||||||
| toggle |
I think a lot of it is about the perception that many have of vegan foods, where the vegan-ness of it was more important than the taste. i've been served this sort of thing both by vegans and by omnivores.
from a vegan cook: pureed tofu is not an acceptable substitute for yoghurt, plain tofu isn't really that appetising. Adding a few strawberries dosen't make much difference. A lot more strawberries and some sugar may have helped. yes, SUGAR. putting some in a pudding won't kill you. The apple crumble could do with a bit as well. from an omnivore cook: an plate of over boiled cauliflower with some nuts sprinkled on top is not a vegan meal. Adding some unflavoured kidney beans still in the gunge they were tinned in does not make it a complete meal. I have eaten and have cooked some absolutely wonderful vegan meals, but the thought of eating out vegan still brings to mind either the cauliflower or the pureed tofu. |
||||||
| snozzer |
ME, ME, ME, Sorry at the beginning of this thread I read
I read social centre to be for the benefit of people in your area of Wiltshire.
But then you say, you want part of the slaughter of animals. So, your personal ethics are so important that they have to override the rest of the community. Lets put it the other way, if I opened a centre that had a meat only diet because I thought vegan food was bad for your health, would you be inclined to go there? You are passively aggresively sending a message that becuase you are a vegan, only vegans are welcome. You ask about helping your community, but you want to remove a persons right to eat meat at that centre. I thought Wiltshire was a rural area, with a lot of meat production taking place, many people in your community may well be involved in the meat production chain, how do you think they will feel about your views, it is like standing there telling them they are all wrong and you are right, people never like to be preached to in that manner. |
||||||
| Behemoth |
Would anybody expext to get a bacon butty at a bar mitzvah? Would you not go because you couldn't?
Please don't think of this enterprise as a 'community centre'. it's not. It's a private club, constituted and run by it's members, along lines they see fit, that offers a resource to the wider community as a whole, who may wish to use the premises or services provided, or not. I'm really flabbergasted that a cafe offering vegan food, in a social club open to all the community, whose ethos is to provide a focus for thinking about and practical advice on alternative ways of living etc should be so contentious. |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
but a vegan diet is accommodating to ALL, wheres a beef sarnie is only applicable to a meat eater.
I agree that it would SUCK if a cafe only offered meaty dishes - but thats the reality in most places - even vegetarian options have cheese on them etc. Anyone can enjoy and benefit from a well prepared meal that doesn't have cheese or milk in it. So I don't think it's not being open to the community. (UNLESS of course, the community isn't open minded) |
||||||
| katie |
But why on earth should the community be 'open-minded' by your definition? If it is to be to the benefit of the community it should be accessible to the community as a whole, not one portion of it. If it's to be a social club catering to the converted, then that's another thing altogether. | ||||||
| Behemoth |
Have I missed something? Is there a prohibition on omnivores from enjoying a veg chilli? | ||||||
| gil |
I have very fond memories of a building/shop in Islington, briefly squatted by anarchists in the early 80s, where they opened a caff, which happened to be vegan and was really good. Unfortunately, it didn;t last long - until eviction - but it advertised discounts on food not only for UB40s but pensioners as well.
I see vegan food as all-inclusive, rather than excluding people - everyone can eat it (unless it's got nuts in or other allergens), and I would happily eat at a vegan caff, provided the cooking was good. Can't remember whether 121's caff was vegan or not. There's a quite good vegan restaurant in Glasgow. Child-friendly too. This thread has reminded me that I need to fill the forms in to get my wines officially certified as vegan by the Vegan Society. |
||||||
| Jamanda |
No absolutely not. There's a veggie cafe run on very hippy (I use that in a good way) values not far from here. I really like it and I've enjoyed all the food I've had there. It wouldn't occur to me not to go because it doesn't sell meat products. | ||||||
| cab |
You chose to start out with 'vegan'. You've seen the response, that enough people who have skills that you're after will be put off. Either persist with that as a flag or don't, its up to you, but you know now that you're putting across the impression that non-vegans are less welcome. Its small things (not being able to have a drop of milk in a cup of tea) right through to big things (ethics are open, people are allowed to bring what views they like except for wanting a drop of milk in their tea, which they can't...). Why even start down a route that'll put people off if you're actually interested in people with diverse ethical stances? |
||||||
| RichardW |
Not at all & most would enjoy it but dont want the preachyness of it & will be made to feel bad about their life choices which should not be done. Justme |
||||||
| mochyn |
I'm baffled by this thread. OK so as it's posed it's not, strictly speaking, a community centre. What's the problem with that? We have a lovely community centre in our village but not everyone chooses to use it. When we have a do there is always a veggie option. We haven't had a call for vegan so far. There's enough of the veggie option for the 'known veggies' and a few others to have some.
If I go into a cafe or whatever I eat what I fancy. I'm lucky: I'm an omnivore with no alergies. So, if I fancy the vegan or veggie stuff I can eat it. If I fancy a steak, I can have that. A veggie or vegan is more limited in their choice, and can't be sure that what is labelled as vegetarian may not actually be so. If they can have confidence that the kitchen has had no animal products in it they can eat with a clear conscience. So what's the big problem? As long as the place seems welcoming and friendly surely no-one here would be put off by a vegan label? |
||||||
| cab |
It isn't. But starting out with that as an up-front statement is an issue. |
||||||
| RichardW |
What about yeast? I thought that was an organisum? (not being funny just would like to know as its seems odd, where exactly is the line between aceptable & not?) Justme |
||||||
| Behemoth |
And I think it says more about the people standing outside moaning than the people inside doing something. Do you expect a bacon butty at a Bar Mitzvah? |
||||||
| cab |
Depends. From the list as first stated, yes, I'd be put off. I can see some practical value in the other topics, but sandwich that with veganism and its starting to come across as being at the sandal wearing end of the green movement; I've come across far too many 'vegan' initiatives before, and I'm afraid that I've always found them to be of limited value. So I suppose, in principle, I'd be quite happy with whats going on there; my experience to date tells me that I'd find it baffling and quite poor. |
||||||
| Behemoth |
Ergo all vegans are a waste of space and time. | ||||||
| RichardW |
Is veganisum a diet or a way of life?
If its a diet then there are no issues But if its a way of life then the opening statment is preachy. People not fitting in to that way of life will feel unwelcome. Also its not always about how you or I see things or how things realy are. Its about how the public percieve them to be. get that wrong & you will fail no matter how good it is. Justme |
||||||
| mochyn |
So the only way you'd know for sure that this theoretical place was the same would be by trying it for yourself. You could be pleasantly surprised! 
|
||||||
| Azura Skye |
Is it me, or is your problem with this the fact that yarrow put 'vegan cafe' FIRST on his list? I think you could be more open minded, just because you've had a bad experience in the past doesn't mean that all vegan food serving places are going to be bad value. |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
So one could say 'Vegan food served here' - and that would be ok, even if all the food were vegan. it's not saying just VEGAN which suggests way of life? 'Vegan food' means - suitable for people with dairy allergies 'Vegan' means - preachy lifestyle : ) |
||||||
| Yarrow |
Indeed, it is a 'social centre' as opposed to a community centre. If you think the difference is spurious, read these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_center http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_centre They are both recognisably distinct terms. If I used the term 'Community Centre' I was using a bad technique to illustrate a point. I suppose it is very much a club open to all, but that does not stop it being 'accessible to the community as a whole' in my mind. That aside, I don't think a vegan kitchen would 'override the rest of the community'. Many people have kitchens of their own, and those who don't will be well fed. If a positive centre featured a meat only menu, I would still go there.
I'm sorry but I really can't see the paradox in this sentence. Please inform. No contentions would be made about anothers' dietary ethic, indeed the issue would be avoided as much as possible so as not to cause offense. The only reason I mentioned it here was a) it would be, so not to mention it would be a bit strange when guaging opinion b)I'm a vegan so am excited at the prospect Sorry if that sent a message. But seriously, if a flyer mentioned various activities and a vegan-friendly menu, would you be inclined not to go? If so, how can that be avoided (bearing in mind that a decision has been made not to prepare meat or dairy in the kitchen)? Also, what you say about telling people they're wrong, and preaching? I agree, and it's a difficult one.
I just pointed out that no such message is being sent, passively or otherwise. Feel free to think me rude, I'm just saying it's a fine line. But then, if a message is received that does imply it was sent, doesn't it?[/b] |
||||||
| snozzer |
The trouble with this is the people inside will be a small few and will not get the benefit of the "outsiders" because of how they have positioned themselves. Why not just be a cafe and have different options? I would not expect a bacon butty at a Bar Mitzvah, but I would not expect to regulary attend them unles I was jewish, therefore it is a small sacrifice to attend an event. But to have a social club where I would expect to be able to attend regulary deny me some real milk in my coffee would hardly make me want to go. There are many things demanding of peoples time, and the more exclusive you make them, or appear to make them, then people will chose to spend their time at other more inclusive venues or in a society of people far less judgmental. |
||||||
| Andrea |
I really don't see what all the fuss is about. What's the chance of people having a full meal at a cafe in a community type centre? Pretty small I'd guess. So most people will have a bit of cake and a cuppa. And I personally can't tell much difference between a vegan cake and a meat eaters cake myself.
I think how Yarrow & his team market the cafe is the key thing. It's perfectly possible to have a vegan cafe without shoving it in everyone's faces. |
||||||
| gil |
Hadn't thought about yeast, but when I ran through my list of ingredients with the chap at the VS over the phone, he seemed perfectly happy. I think yeast is a micro-organism, so is OK. Main issue with wine seems to be with agents used for fining/clearing, some of which can also make the wine unsuitable for vegetarians : egg-white; isinglass [made from the swim-bladders of fish]; chitin [shellfish bits, I think]; milk, blood. If you want to clear wine, you can fine using bentonite clay or fullers earth; or you can filter it through muslin, paper-based or metal mesh. I just let it settle out - time and gravity do the work. Got me head-scratching now - do vegans eat yeast-risen bread ? Is yeast OK ? |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
yeast is okay as far as I'm aware.
it's not an animal is it? |
||||||
| Yarrow |
Yeast is counted as an animal, I think. Most vegans don't worry about it too much though, as otherwise they'd be stuck on how to get into an apple. It's the same sort of issue as honey really, if the queen bee is locked up then that's exploitation- if you take the honey from a normal hive, does that make it okay? The realisation is that sustenance requires violence, of one kind or another. It's all about your own POV, and for that reason no-one can judge another fairly.
Veganism covers a wide range of diets and lifestyles, just as being a driver covers a range of needs and wants. The point about tea is well made- there are more important things in life than caffeine, I'm told. By a tea-totaler. But I see no exclusion in a lack of meat. So, irony aside, am I right in thinking that 'vegan food served here' is acceptable to most ears? |
||||||
| cab |
Yeast is a fungus. Perfectly acceptable for vegans to eat it. Of course one could argue that the mass of insects ground up with flour should make most things you'd rise with it completely off the menu for vegans... | ||||||
| cab |
I didn't say that; but we've all only got a finite amount of free time, and we pick and choose what to get involved with based on previous experience and current impressions. Veganism has a bad reputation in some quarters, often because of the way some vegans put their case forward. If the words 'community', 'vegan' and 'ethics' coincide then past experience tells me not to get my hopes up. We were asked for advice; my advice is don't play up the parts that are divisive, don't put people off right from the outset. |
||||||
| Behemoth |
I think we must have a different experience of these venues. They're not 'the social club' as conventionally termed (flat cap, dominoes, flock wall paper). they tend to be meeting points, venues, focus points for a disparate group of people who have similar but not necessarily convergent views. They provide a venue for bands, films, meetings, projects, rabble rousing, art, poetry, yoof etc and through the hatch in the corner is somebody making food which could be called vegan and a hot drink which could be a lemon and ginger for a change. there are two I go to, not as regularly now I like my flock wall paper and dominoes, and I've never felt excluded by the food. |
||||||
| Behemoth |
SInce when hasd a baked potato been divisive. Yes we are informed by our prejudices. QED. |
||||||
| judith |
A roast potato, on the other hand... |
||||||
| cab |
Maybe, but thats a constraint that Yarrow can't change. If he's not interested in working within the constraints imposed upon him by the perceptions of a wider community, I'd ask whether this is really going to be a community project for a wider community or whether it is instead simply a talking shop for those who already share the same views.
No. But I also wouldn't expect a Bar Mitzvah to be a talking shop and inclusive comminity meeting point for people with a broad range of different views. 'Community Centre' does not say 'Vegan' in the same way that 'Bar Mitzvah' says 'Jewish'. |
||||||
| cab |
Yes, and thats the advice Yarrow asked for. I'd go to a veggie or vegan restaurant or cafe. Have done so many times, will do so again. I'll take part in events that I know are veggie... But if I'm picking where to share my time an knowledge, am I going to go somewhere that gives me an impression of inclusivity (that encompasses me) or one that immediately sounds like it excludes me? |
||||||
| Behemoth |
You can use olive oil. 
|
||||||
| Yarrow |
Good advice. But really cab, you shouldn't bother wondering about whether vegans should eat X or Y. If you're not going to act on you're own decision, it is a waste of time telling anyone else. And before you tell me what vegans think, who exactly are we talking about? Because I'm sure you know that categorizing others only leads to gross generalisations and error. As previously stated, veganism is not a diet or a lifestyle. It is a category, like 'jazz fan' or 'Christian'. PS- sorry, a bit of that sounds abusive but I can't think of any other way to say it. |
||||||
| cab |
I wouldn't be put off by that. I would be put off if you can't have a spot of milk in tea. Really, it smacks of just not accepting others. And I'd never get my other half to go (she takes hers white). I honestly wouldn't play up the vegan thing. Theres no need. It'll put people off. |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
"It smacks of not accepting others?"
lol, seriously. Why don't you just accept that at this particular virtual cafe, there's no milk. I think your posts smack of not accepting all Vegan related thingies. |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
I CAN see your point though.
I wouldn't go to a cafe that served only meat. BUT if it was a part of a social centre that gave lessons on permaculture I'd go, and drink water and not complain because I know before hand that there's no apples or something. I think Vegan Cafe has more positive connotations than a cafe called Meat Fest Cafe or something. But if you think that a vegan cafe is going to be full of hippies, then shame on you, lol - but also, you wouldn't feel like you could fit in. I understand that. But if it was called vegan cafe, with huge windows where you could see NORMAL people in there eating and drinking, then you'd think - oh they are just human, like me - then you could go in too. Maybe one would be worried by being seen at these locations and then be called a freaky hippy by all the abuse hurling adults that bully passersby these days. |
||||||
| Behemoth |
I'm genuinely gobsmacked that you would chose not to use/attend a privatecommunity resource that may be persuing areas you are interested in purely because the organising committee decided a cafe serving vegan food met their ethos and all users needs. |
||||||
| cab |
I don't. Theres nothing to wonder about really; it isn't my problem if most vegans have an ethical or moral food code that they aspire to but cannot attain and which, when analyzed, is no more 'ethical' or 'moral' than the code of an ethical omnivore. I have no problem with people being vegan, thats up to them, I do have a problem with the implication that such is defensible as being more moral or ethical than my dieat. It isn't. |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
well so what? that you'd exlude yourself from something that you might be interested in - just because you have a preconceived false notion that these people are going to tell you that they are better than you simply because of their diet. no one will do that. you will live without milk in your tea, and you will live if people tell you you're wrong, and you will live if people agree with you. I don't see the point in you stressing about what COULD happen, just relax - you are the only one deciding what goes into your body, and it won't be bad for you if at one point you decide to forego an animal meal for an animal free one. |
||||||
| judith |
I think you are missing the point, AS. Yarrow wanted advice on setting up a "community" café - he wants it to be inclusive. A cup of tea is a pretty fundamental thing - it is pretty much what a café is all about. If, right from the outset, you say that most people won't be served tea in the way that they like it, then most people aren't going to bother going. So the café won't be for the "community" after all, it will be for people who think like you. It isn't about the rights and wrongs of having milk in your tea. There will be other cafés in the town and people can choose to drink their tea there - and they will do that if they don't get what they want at Yarrow's place. So he will not have the opportunity to talk with them all because of a couple of fluid ounces of milk. |
||||||
| Yarrow |
Cab, I assure you. no-one is trying to get the 'one-up' on morality here, it's just a case of diff'rent strokes. If you'd rather stay away, I am interested as to how we could get you interested. But would visiting a building where you can't have a cup of tea really make you feel excluded, at all? I remind you that the reasons for a lack of milk will not be shouted about. And there would be other drinks available! And judith, i'm sorry but you misunderstand. This venture is not a cafe, it is a social centre that serves a breakfast, and possibly a lunch and supper. The emphasis is not on food, at least no more than any community spot that features gardening projects. |
||||||
| Azura Skye |
yeah I know, it's a shame that people would forego listening to something interesting because they are addicted to caffeine with milk! lol
I've gone to hundreds of events with no raw food, no vegan food, no vegetarian food - and I'm still here, and would still go to these events. preconceived ideas are annoying - but Yarrow could perhaps change these. He could still label his cafe as vegan but through the work of the centre and word of mouth do a good job which would encourage other people to come and join in. I'd think it would be a shame not to label it veg*n to start with - if it does prove difficult then change the name, hopefully people will like learning about things enough to forego having a cuppa. MIND YOU... I've been doing some runner type jobs recently, getting people tea and what not - and omg, people drink tea all the time! It's so annoying lol : ) I was in n out of the kitchen refiling the cups all the time, I was like - you wouldn't expect me to light your cigarettes, so why am I running about to satisfy another of your addictions? |
||||||
| Yarrow |
Damn good point! Personally i've stopped getting friends milk when I go to the shops. I wouldn't expect any involvement from them if I beat my little sister (don't have one, calm down), and as far as I can see it's much the same situation. Pissed some people off at first, but my friends respect my opinions so it's not a problem.
Oh, for a few fluid ounces of milk indeed. |
||||||
| cab |
You mean, you can't see why I might instead be part of a community that didn't imply from the outset that I'm not really going to be part of it? |
||||||
| Behemoth |
Re: Your views needed- Social Centre
So having reposted the the original post with the first item on the list edited and repositioned, does this proposed place sound like a bastion of minority interest full of soap box vegans berating you for your ethics. Any poractical tips on establishing a constirution, financing, insurance, rent, grants, fitting out, admin, banks etc etc etc. |