Pesticides. The birds & the bees.

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Pesticides. The birds & the bees.
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Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 15 10:31 am Post subject:
I agree, that would be the ideal (and we should continue with pressure in that direction), just as everyone cutting out intensively farmed meat and moving over to pasture-based/by-product only meat would be ideal, but in the meantime we have to deal with the situation we've got.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 15 1:42 pm Post subject:

Ty Gwyn wrote:

Your looking for utopia Tav,

If all these chemicals were banned tomorrow and all veg production went organic,like it was in our Father`s day,all farms planting veg for the War Effort ,we`d have to import a lot more than we do now to feed the population that cannot afford organic prices,let alone the vast increase in population from then bye gone years.

I also have never used chemicals,on a 4 acre field that only had a few docks ,which i control on the farm by pulling and burning,i ploughed and planted stubble turnips for the Tir Gofal scheme i was in,the following year after the turnips were eaten,i had a forest of docks and Scottish thistles which i dug out with a fork,i filled a 3ton tipping trailer heaped,and 2 transport boxes with the livestock cage full,and burned the lot when dried,as you see,i`m a gluton for punishment,lol.
After that i bought a can of round-up in case the buggers came back as i could`nt put weight on my right foot for weeks from all that banging the fork into the ground,i still have the can,and do not intend ploughing that field again,lol.

I've done a bit of dock digging over the years but never had to fill a three ton trailer.
I empathise.

Is it a Utopian daydream to want to live in a safe environment?
I would think that should be a basic human right.
I don't think banning anything works anymore.
We have just had a two year EU neonic ban & all that's happened is the agrochem industry have just released a new pesticide, similar to neonics, that from what I've read even has effects on mammalian life.
It's been approved for use by the EU.
All I ask for is transparency so those of us that do care can avoid the damaging & encourage the nurturing.

Something I have thought of that never occurred to me before is by buying registered 'organic' produce I'm also making a statement that will get noticed.
Despite all the industry induced anti organic propaganda in the press in recent years sales keep rising.
Because big food retail monitors the pound we spend they know how much is spent in which sectors.
& they publish those figures.
Rob has admitted he doesn't know how many of his near neighbours are as environmentally conscious as him. But a post code & a quick google will tell me how many organic registered farmers & growers there are in any area.

Mistress Rose wrote:

Tavascarow, I am perhaps more hostile to the organic label than Rob. For instance, it is not really possible to get an organic label for British honey, so most comes from other countries where there standards of everything else, including labelling, may not be as high as ours.

I know nothing about commercial forestry so have removed those parts of your post.
A lot of beekeepers, especially 'natural' ones & myself included have made the same conclusions.
But a bee is a free flying organism so unless you know all the land it forages over is organic there is no way of calling the honey organic, regardless of what practices the beekeeper follows.
My environment is fairly bee friendly but as I've said in this thread I have a neighbour who uses selective herbicide & as I haven't said another who grows forage maize which no doubt has seed treatments & copious fertilizer added.
There are very few places in the UK where it's possible to keep bees in an environment free from those effects.
On the other hand there are parts of the world like the forests of Queensland & Tasmania where there wont be anything but natural nectar bearing forest for thousands of square miles.
IMHO it's not the fault of the organic movement if the environment is contaminated.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 15 1:48 pm Post subject:
We have a field that suffers with a few docks - turned the sheep in there last week and they devoured them first. Kerry's might be pain to keep in, but they're fantastic grazings animals.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 15 1:52 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob has admitted he doesn't know how many of his near neighbours are as environmentally conscious as him. But a post code & a quick google will tell me how many organic registered farmers & growers there are in any area.

That's why I wanted to register the land as organic, as I knew I wouldn't be able to sell the produce as organic without the added transport, so I was just hoping to do it to make that distinction. It's such a shame that it's an all-or-nothing system and there's nothing covering pesticides in their own right. United we could send a much stronger message.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 15 2:41 pm Post subject:
That said, getting back to the subject of the birds and the bees - the association with organic registered farms is all implied, I'd much rather we judge farms on what they actually have, in terms of biodiversity.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 15 5:36 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

That said, getting back to the subject of the birds and the bees - the association with organic registered farms is all implied, I'd much rather we judge farms on what they actually *have*, in terms of biodiversity.

I agree to a certain extent.
We want small mixed 'organic' farms not large 'organic' monocultures & livestock ranches.
By their very nature rotation of crops & fallow is essential to maintain fertility which increases biodiversity. Likewise not using pesticides & encouraging beneficial organisms to help combat pests & diseases also. But at the moment organic tends to be either intensive small scale horticulture or big specialized farmers/landowners converting, & not a lot in between.
It would be nice to see a way smaller units could register & still compete economically.
But IMHO it's also important standards aren't lowered any more than they already have been.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 15 8:47 am Post subject:
Small to medium sized farms often have complex structures that the certification odies don't seem to favour. It's not so much a watering down of standards as recognition of real life limitations. Farms being self-contained units in a ring fence are a thing of the past, unless you have significant capital. Organic needs to be traditional, but at the same time is in need of some modernisation.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 15 11:01 am Post subject:

It's difficult.
& I fully appreciate your situation.
& you are right the standards are skewed towards landowners & tenants with very long leases.
Have you spoken to any of the organic registration bodies face to face.
I'm wondering if they can make exceptions for land that's obviously been marginal & environmentally sensitive.
I'm sure I've read that they can reduce the conversion period for obviously unspoiled, untreated land. Maybe they should extend that further for SSSI areas that require grazing.
Is any of the land you graze owned or managed by your local wildlife trust?
Wondering if that organisation could help apply some pressure.
I'm just brainstorming but if the wildlife trusts being charities could get a much reduced rate for conversion of their grazing & you & your home farm paid the conventional amount.
Like I said I'm only brainstorming & have no contacts that might be able to help.
My association with organic registration is as a consumer.
I did consider registration many years ago for my smallholding but the fees where prohibitive for such a small acreage.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 15 12:39 pm Post subject:

I've been in conversation with the OF&G certification body, the one associated with the NFU, most recently. They were quite open to certification of longer term leases, but they weren't keen on anything without a long term commitment, which would mean that I'd have to get other people to convert grazing areas 2 or 3 years before I could use them, as an established organic farm.

Given that the vast majority of my sales are direct and people know how we farm through direct contact, it wouldn't add anything in financial terms, so it would be entirely an added cost. We wouldn't be able to sell anything as organic unless we transported it the extra 56 miles to slaughter, which I'm not prepared to do, as that would be a retrograde step, IMO. I could, perhaps, persuade the local abattoir to convert to organic, but that would place an extra cost burden onto them which, as the only organic producer, would mean they'd be forced to pass the cost onto me.

It is extremely difficult to balance the books as it is, without the added costs of registration plus the inflexibility of being able to make the best decisions for the land and animals. As it would only, really, be for my own satisfaction, it doesn't add up for me to pay someone else to tell me what I already know. I'd rather spend the money on some owl boxes, or cattle housing improvements.

I might well look it again if we come into some money and can afford a larger home base that would make it viable in it's own right & feasible to help the abattoir to convert. However, as the Soil Association admits, the conventional/organic premium is narrowing, so it might not make financial sense, even then.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 15 12:44 pm Post subject:
In short, it makes more sense to build up a business and then convert than to tie the organic noose around your neck from the start and have the added hurdle of sourcing organic stock & land to build it up with.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15579

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 15 5:57 am Post subject:
I think this is the problem with most certification systems Rob; they are not flexible. As things stand it doesn't seem worth your while to go for organic certification. What is the difference between an organic certified abattoir and non-organic?

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4563
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 15 7:58 am Post subject:
One is certified to slaughter and process organic animals and the other is`nt,its as simple as that, Or put it another way,it pay`s one to furnish the certification fee and not another.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 15 8:31 am Post subject:

& there's the rub.
If there aren't enough subscribers then the abattoir wont register.
& if consumers don't demand, likewise.
I still say taxing the polluters & subsidising the organic sector has to be the way forward.
Look at green energy & see how that has (until this government stuck a knife in it) blossomed with government help.
The green energy subsidies where a fraction of the breaks big fossil gets but look at how they brought that industry forward.
We should be doing the same for 'green' food.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4563
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 15 9:44 am Post subject:

But its also down to the cost of the organic certification,
If i remember on Thursday i will ask at Tregaron of this cost,as i have no idea of the fee.

Farm registration used to be £330 a number of year`s back when i inquired,a friend of mine who also retailed through farmers markets through their own cutting plant on farm had to pay an additional £1,000,then the SA wanted a further 5% of their takings,

So it was all knocked on the head,priced out in other words.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 15 11:35 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

& there's the rub.
If there aren't enough subscribers then the abattoir wont register.
& if consumers don't demand, likewise.

Exactly why I say people should be eating more, not less, meat, providing it is from ethical sources. It's all very well saying that everyone should cut down and buy local, but unless everyone does, simultaneously, then the viability of those that do offer it suffers because of lack of resources such as local abattoirs.

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