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Help with energy use/provision please
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Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 14556
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 17 6:51 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

Quote:
Built into the hills will be a hydroelectric plant capable of producing 16 megawatts of power, while the wind farm on its own will produce 13.6 megawatts.

OK, but for how long? That does not look to be a very big water tank.

An interesting idea that was put to me recently is to use ice as an energy store. It is counter-intuitive, but all you need to run a heat engine is a heat gradient...

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 32593
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 17 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

the moors are windy and there is a decent height difference in the area.
pumped storage and or hydro seem plausible.

locations and costings could be worked out which gets back to identifying peak and base loads.

having had a while to consider it and reading the comments i recon there are quite a few pennine communities that could become renewable energy hubs.
hudderfield with two steep rivers, plenty of redundant dam capacity at various heights and acres of flat windy moors seems a good candidate.

york however is not very promising as it has little gravity (unless we dammed a few of the dales valleys and got a long wire ) it isn't windy but although it isnt very sunny we could put pv/solar thermal water on the roofs for at least a partial local system if it was on grid as well . as to storage at the mo the NG would probably be the best option.
we are sitting over a couple of centuries of coal and shale gas but that isn't quite the idea i would suggest.

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 17 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Slim wrote:
http://www.gereports.com/unique-combo-wind-hydro-power-revolutionize-renewable-energy/

This is the example of wind and hydro storage I was thinking of. I think it'll be a really nice system where topography and land use allow


Looks promising - the Yorkshire Dales provide a similar topography.
(of course there would be an outcry about it - but not perhaps when people realise the urgency/need to switch to renewables).

Just to mention a quote from the above:
"Wind is a clean, cheap source of renewable energy, but itís also fickle. You can never be sure whether the wind will blow."

Even with current weather forecasting the availability of wind is becoming much more predictable - making the switching to other sources less of a problem (in terms of time).

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 17 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dpack wrote:

york however is not very promising as it has little gravity (unless we dammed a few of the dales valleys and got a long wire ) .

I am sure we could come ot some mutually beneficial arrangment

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 17 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Behemoth wrote:
Possibly of use.

http://ukerc.rl.ac.uk/DC/cgi-bin/edc_search.pl?GoButton=Detail&WantComp=42&WantResult=LD&WantText=profile&

http://ijeee.org/volums/volume7/IJEEE7PDF/Paper727.pdf

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/reports/PoweringthenationreportCO332.pdf


Didn't read every page but yes useful.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 17 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

OtleyLad wrote:
(of course there would be an outcry about it - but not perhaps when people realise the urgency/need to switch to renewables).


Of course your first step, which I assume you're doing, would be to tell people if they cut down on energy use they'd need a smaller power plant or less wind turbines? After all you can argue wind turbines are better than gas but they are not perfect. There's now evidence they slice & dice plenty of wildlife such as birds of prey and bats ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/07/wind-turbine-collisions-killing-hundreds-of-uk-bats-each-month-study-finds ).

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 4453
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 17 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The cheapest kwh is the one not generated and all.....

Behemoth



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 18957
Location: Leeds
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 17 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Otley has a nice river, a weir and a mill race. Handy for something I'd imagine.

Last edited by Behemoth on Sun Jan 08, 17 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 33569
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 17 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Slim wrote:
The cheapest kwh is the one not generated and all.....


Not in Northern Ireland. The ones you generate get you paid a subsidy more than the cost.

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 17 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Slim wrote:

Is there a dense city center, or at least enough large companies/institutions that would make co-generation of heat/hot-water and power a viable pursuit?

Otley is a modest town of about 7,000 households.

Slim wrote:

You mentioned moors for hydro storage, what do you think would be the cheapest renewable suited to your location to be producing the excess energy that you'd be storing?

Definately wind turbines.

Slim wrote:

I'm guessing that you don't have the area (or annual exposure) to be producing enough solar to be worth trying to store it. Better to just include any solar into your daily baseline (with the realization that it won't be consistent. It probably won't be a large percentage anyway).


You're right - its a beautiful place when its sunny though.

Slim wrote:
Do you have good wind siting near you? Could the municipality (or county, or whatever scale your gov't is on) build off-shore wind elsewhere?


Surrounded by open high moorland. But we are a long way from the sea.

Slim wrote:

Thanks for letting me play internet armchair quarterback


You're welcome

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 17 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Treacodactyl wrote:
OtleyLad wrote:
(of course there would be an outcry about it - but not perhaps when people realise the urgency/need to switch to renewables).


Of course your first step, which I assume you're doing, would be to tell people if they cut down on energy use they'd need a smaller power plant or less wind turbines? After all you can argue wind turbines are better than gas but they are not perfect. There's now evidence they slice & dice plenty of wildlife such as birds of prey and bats ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/07/wind-turbine-collisions-killing-hundreds-of-uk-bats-each-month-study-finds ).


There's also conflicting evidence that that report should be filed in the dodgy dossier section.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25697
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 17 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

OtleyLad wrote:
There's also conflicting evidence that that report should be filed in the dodgy dossier section.


Care to post up any links to that or are you just dismissing the rather inconvenient truth?

It looks like you could argue over their total numbers but not the fact dead bats have been found under wind turbines. Do your reports suggest they died due to other factors, suicide perhaps?

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 32593
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 17 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

re the bat issue if there is one, are there many bats on ilkley moor?

do lights on the turbine sites attract moths and therefore bats?

could a light rig divert bats from danger areas?

what else could be done to safeguard any bats ?

much as i am fond of bats and wish them no harm in the greater scheme of things are some casualties acceptable? could potential casualties be offset by population boosting schemes elsewhere?
that seems a bit callous but it is the sort of thinking that seems to hold weight with planners, conservationists and the public.
from personal experience i preferred to support (well at least not to oppose) 7 million tons of stone from 3 out of the way sheep fields than to fight against 1 million from a very disruptive, biodiverse and archaeologically important site .
i would support a useful and sensible low carbon power scheme that overall added more bats that it removed even if that would be rough on the bats at the turbine sites.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 32593
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 17 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

i favour moving water over wind if it is available but that also has critter issues as well as various engineering ones.

pumped water storage combined with wind seems worth looking into.

using gravity and water for power generation can be done in various ways ,big dam/big drop/big turbine at one end of the engineering scale and small drop/screw at the other with a lot of options in between.
considering you have gravity, water and some dams/weirs already looking into the possible options seems sensible.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 8424

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 17 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Some 'conservationists' get rather silly about birds and bats. A big wheel was only given planning permission for certain limited times of the year in Portsmouth because of the risk of 'birds flying into it'. Admittedly Farlington Marshes are an important transit/nesting grounds for certain types of migratory birds, but the wheel would have been quite a distance away and big enough for the birds to see. It also wouldn't move very fast.

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