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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 38250
Location: Essex
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 Posted: Thu Nov 19, 09 2:49 pm Post subject: |
 
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| sean wrote: |
| I'll tell your missus you called her that. |
You think I'm scared? |
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sean
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28908
Location: North Devon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 09 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yep. |
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 38250
Location: Essex
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 09 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, you know me too well |
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vegplot
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 11132
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 09 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| tahir wrote: |
| sean wrote: |
| I'll tell your missus you called her that. |
You think I'm scared? |
I wouldn't cross her. |
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MarkS
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2577
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 09 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: protection against non-payers |
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| Ixy wrote: |
If you charge for your services rather than an object/product then you would bill someone for your time after the event. What if they then turn round and deny all knowledge of you ever doing anything for them and refuse to cough up?
Presumably you can make them sign something beforehand saying 'I'm going to do X and we've agreed £X for this', but they could then deny you DID work Xhours and thus are only entitled to 20% of the £X.
What can you do about that? |
All the Quote/PO stuff is good and you should do that, but you should also get a signature on something at the time you deliver the service. In that same way that someone signs to accept a delivery.
I don't know what you do and therefore how you deliver your service, but if you are actually physically there, then either a timesheet (if you are paid per unit time) or some acceptance form, which should state that the service has been delivered in full and they are happy with it. I would also have a line that says that they are an authorised officer of the company or whatever - you want whoever signs to have the authority to sign on behalf of the business.
This assumes you deliver your services in person, different ways of doing things if you use a web-cam.    |
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Mary-Jane
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 15151
Location: Ceredigion, West Wales
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 09 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: protection against non-payers |
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| Ixy wrote: |
If you charge for your services rather than an object/product then you would bill someone for your time after the event. What if they then turn round and deny all knowledge of you ever doing anything for them and refuse to cough up? Presumably you can make them sign something beforehand saying 'I'm going to do X and we've agreed £X for this', but they could then deny you DID work Xhours and thus are only entitled to 20% of the £X.
What can you do about that? |
When a customer buys goods or a service from a trader, such as a shop or a building contractor, they are entering into a contract. Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, amended by the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994, and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, the consumer then has automatic statutory rights.
A contract is a legally binding agreement concerning the exchange of something of value between two or more parties. A contract does not have to be in writing; verbal agreements are just as legally binding as written ones, but they are of course harder to prove, thus it is advisable to have the agreement (contract) in writing. In any event, the contract must contain the following three elements if it is to be legally binding:
1. The offer (a customer offers to buy goods or services);
2. Acceptance (a trader agrees to sell for a certain price);
3. Consideration (the exchange of payment for goods).
In addition to these elements, extra (reasonable) terms can be written into a contract, such as a particular delivery date. Any rights that the contract gives the customer are in addition to their statutory rights.
(Additional legislation relating to contracts is covered by the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1994. These laws are designed to stop traders from putting unfair terms in contracts with customers and clients).
Simple pro forma agreements are available to purchase which you can amend to suit your particular service or business Ixy. Hope this helps. |
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Mary-Jane
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 15151
Location: Ceredigion, West Wales
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 09 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Toffer wrote: |
| You can also get stuck into something called "the battle of the forms" whereby because each round of paperwork will refer to either the customer or supplier's terms, there is never acceptance and therefore never a contract, the law sees this as a series of counter offers rather than a contract and the terms deemed to be applicable will often be the ones last exchanged before the work was done, therefore agreeing to the terms by conduct. |
Often when two companies/traders deal with each other in the course of business, they will use standard form contracts for their terms of business. Sometimes these terms conflict (eg. both parties include a liability waiver in their form) and yet offer and acceptance are still achieved forming a binding contract.
The expression 'battle of the forms' refers to the resulting legal dispute of these circumstances, where both parties recognise that an enforceable contract exists, but they cannot agree whose standard business terms should govern that contract.
English and Welsh law takes the view that the last counter-offer before the beginning of the performance of the contract voids all previous offers and the absence of any additional counter-offer or refusal by the other party is understood as an implied acceptance. |
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Dr Rob
Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 273
Location: Moylgrove, nr Cardigan, Pembs
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Whenever I draft terms and conditions I include a clause to the effect that they'll take precedence over the supplier's (or buyer's) competing terms. Not foolproof, but good practice and could make a difference in any subsequent 'battle of forms'. |
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BethinPA
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Posts: 668
Location: SE Pennsylvania, US of A
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Depending on the type of work, it's customary here to get partial payment up front. For construction, the deposit is supposed to cover the cost of supplies, at the least. The remainder is paid upon completion of the work.
How about offering to undo the work they said you didn't do? I know, it's more of your time, but it might get them to 'fess up (and pay up). This is disheartening to hear! I can't imagine trying to cheat someone like that! |
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dpack
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 13794
Location: w yorks /earth
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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written contracts are good even with people you trust
without paperwork the legal route is difficult/impossible
from long experiance it is usually possible to ask for ones dues in a manner they cant refuse or will regret refusing ,one need not all fat tony on them (most times )an offer to publicise their default is often enough
business is a matter of trust from customers and suppliers ,no business needs to get bad publicity
when i was a building contractor i had about 0.1% bad debt due to malice , one client who i trusted ,made a point of being unavailable to sign a contract before the window of oppertunity to do the works and decided not to pay ,i put it down to experiance ,never repeated my mistake and made him regret his |
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VM
Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 647
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure what kind of work/service you're talking about - or if it's an actual situation you've encountered or just a hypothetical one, but...
I do some freelance consultancy for community organisations and charge a day rate. There is normally some exchange of emails or, if done by face to face discussion, something written down, re: what they expect me to do and how many days it will take.
If it's only one or two days, I might invoice when it's done. If it's a longer piece of work than that, I'd normally invoice them for maybe a third of the time as soon as I start the work and then the rest at the end - or perhaps another invoice in the middle if it's quite a long drawn out piece of work.
But I'm dealing with organisations/groups not individuals and I've never had any problems with non-payment.
When we've had builders work on our house, they've normally asked for a deposit at the beginning, for materials at least, and again, it seems normal to me to pay this.
Mainly, I'm sure it's right to get something, however brief, on paper to make sure both sides agree on what's involved. |
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Nat S
Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 3610
Location: York
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| VM wrote: |
If it's only one or two days, I might invoice when it's done. If it's a longer piece of work than that, I'd normally invoice them for maybe a third of the time as soon as I start the work and then the rest at the end - or perhaps another invoice in the middle if it's quite a long drawn out piece of work. |
This is what I've done in the past and it worked fine but I have a potential job or two coming up and suddenly got an attack of the jitters the other day when I thought 'what if someone doesn't pay and I can't prove what I did!?'
Thanks people, it may never come up but after my experiences with previous employers (not since being self employed though) I guess I should be a bit proactive about protecting myself (legally  ). |
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Mary-Jane
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 15151
Location: Ceredigion, West Wales
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ixy wrote: |
| ...after my experiences with previous employers (not since being self employed though) I guess I should be a bit proactive about protecting myself (legally ). |
Well yes. And as dpack points out...
| dpack wrote: |
written contracts are good even with people you trust
without paperwork the legal route is difficult/impossible
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dpack
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 13794
Location: w yorks /earth
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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im glad im not always daft
written contract ,signed ,dated and held by you |
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MarkS
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2577
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 09 9:10 am Post subject: |
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If you're delivering training or something then I would always hand out a feedback form at the end and ask the people to fill it in there and then.
As well as providing feedback, it shows that you and the clients attended and on the whole people say good things which is useful in the event of a later dispute. |
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