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Young apple trees - & Ongoing updates (inc grafting)
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Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 6401
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

If they are on their own roots aren't they going to be to vigorous for close planting?
I would create a nursery bed & grow them on for a couple of years then when larger plant them out at about 20 ft apart & grow them as standards.

Sally Too



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2462
Location: N.Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I have a field now that is for this project.

So if I plant them like Tahir suggested (I could call it a nursery area) and then either graft from the trees as they grow - or move whole trees in a couple of years to a wider spacing. Or both.

Sounds like a plan.

ETA - might I need to trim roots a bit in preparation for potential moves. And would this keep the "own-root" trees a bit more dwarfed for a bit too????

Last edited by Sally Too on Sun Sep 05, 10 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41941
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
If they are on their own roots aren't they going to be to vigorous for close planting?


That's why grafting onto M27 might be a better idea, it would make them more uniform and fruit earlier, and you'd still have the existing trees in pots. Although they're not necessarily going to all be vigorous, some are quite weedy on their own roots.

If I was any good at grafting I'd happily pop over to assist. Rootstocks are quite easy to come by.

Sally Too



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2462
Location: N.Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

tahir wrote:
Tavascarow wrote:
If they are on their own roots aren't they going to be to vigorous for close planting?


That's why grafting onto M27 might be a better idea, it would make them more uniform and fruit earlier, and you'd still have the existing trees in pots. Although they're not necessarily going to all be vigorous, some are quite weedy on their own roots.

If I was any good at grafting I'd happily pop over to assist. Rootstocks are quite easy to come by.


Would they really fruit earlier on M27?

How much of the existing plant would be left if I whacked the top off to do a graft?

Argh .. more and more questions! (Mind you it is a fun to fill my mind with this stuff!)

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41941
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Sally wrote:
How much of the existing plant would be left if I whacked the top off to do a graft?


Most of it, you use a tiny bit to graft. And in my experience M27 really does want to fruit a lot earlier, a commercial orchard on M27 will produce a harvest in it's first year, you're not likely to achieve that but they'll definitely fruit earlier.

Sally Too



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2462
Location: N.Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Any-one out there good at grafting and like to come visit??

Any good books? Any good videos?

Where would I buy M27? What is one likely to cost if I buy 80 or so?


tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41941
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I've pointed OP at this thread, he should know all of the above.

OP



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 4661
Location: Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

tahir wrote:
I guess OP might suggest grafting the existing onto M27, and planting at 1.5 mtrs, but we'll have to wait and see.

Yes, although you can plant them closer than that. I've got 10 trees on M27 rootstocks in a space 7m by 3m and they are very happy together. They come into fruiting very fast.

Sally wrote:
Any-one out there good at grafting and like to come visit??

Any good books? Any good videos?

The Grafters Handbook by Garner is all you need.

yummersetter



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 2987
Location: Somerset
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I have A Plan. Or two. First you need to plant the rootstocks and get them underway, and your nursery bed too, then when they've grown next winter you have the option of budding or grafting side shoots from your originals, leaving them intact. You could in fact graft several onto one stock if you kept track of what's where. That'll be the important thing, traceability back to the originals.

There are these great gizmos - grafting pliers http://www.cjindustries.co.uk/cg040001.html and you could practise joining twigs together in the meanwhile - they're supposed to be well-nigh foolproof.

Well done - its something I've never done but would love to.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41941
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Where would you source the rootstocks?

Sally Too



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2462
Location: N.Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Hmmmm

Would M26 be better for my conditions?

http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/fruit_veg_diary/fruit_veg_mini_project_september_2_apple_m26.htm

Sally Too



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2462
Location: N.Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

OP wrote:

The Grafters Handbook by Garner is all you need.


Okay heading off to search for it now...... Thanks

Sally Too



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2462
Location: N.Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

YS - thanks for that link... lots of pictures etc. here: http://www.cjindustries.co.uk/it040001.html

Will think about one of those!

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41941
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Sally wrote:
Hmmmm

Would M26 be better for my conditions?

http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/fruit_veg_diary/fruit_veg_mini_project_september_2_apple_m26.htm


I've no experience with M26

OP



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 4661
Location: Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 10 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I would suggest planting rootstocks in situ (i.e. not in a nursery bed) this coming winter/spring, and then bud-grafting them next summer when the seedlings will have got a bit more growth. I might also cut the tops of ("head") the seedling trees in early spring to encourage them to put out some strong side-shoots, which would be a better source of the budwood you will need in the summer.

I would then do 2 buds per rootstock in the summer 2011, and hope that at least one of them takes (in spring 2012). You will get a few losses of course, but by budding in situ you don't need to move the rootstock, and that means the tree grows faster. Using this approach you would almost certainly have fruit by the autumn of 2013, and some might even fruit autumn 2012.

The benefit of M27 for this purpose is that it is extremely precocious - especially if you don't transplant the new tree. That means you can more quickly find out which of your seedlings is actually going to produce a useful fruit (as well as an indication of the general growth characteristics etc). It would certainly be an idea to do some grafts / buds on M26 as a longer term thing, or to get some actual production - but I would wait until the M27 trial has told you which of your seedlings have the best potential.

Personally I think M26 is neither here nor there unless your conditions specifically require it - use M9 for production or MM106 for nice big trees. There's also a new one called M116 which is similar to MM106 but smaller, i.e. the same size as M26 but with the crop potential of MM106.

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