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Biodiesel course
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nora



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 1539
Location: West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 4:34 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

A man called Martin Steele used to drive around here and the Manchester area in a volvo diesel that he ran on biodiesel that he made himself. He was very keen on promoting this and was a regular at green events for a while. I don't know where he is now but i'll see if I can find out.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Res wrote:
... but the by-product was sold as a cheaper alternative to veg oil.
Thing is, firstly its a product, not a by-product. Secondly, the current subsidy (20p/litre less tax) has not been enough to bring in much biofuel manufacturing - ie even at $50 a barrel for fossil oil, the cost of producion of bio-road-fuels is *even* *more* expensive! Trust me, diesel fuel is not being sold worldwide as some sort of loss-leader to encourage consumption!
It seems it is still much cheaper to pump it out of the ground (it certainly doesn't cost $50 a barrel to produce - thats the auction selling price) than it is to *grow* the stuff. (very sad, but none the less true)

Tax. I believe (please correct me if I err) that there is no VAT on cooking oil for *food* use - but that if it is used as a fuel, VAT would have to be paid *as_well_as* the road fuel duty. (Think there might even be VAT on the duty...) Now, what price do you have to buy that veg oil at to be competitive with fossil?

Res



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
Thing is, firstly its a product, not a by-product.


dieselveg.com wrote:
The English papers were full of stories of his assassination by French operatives who obviously didn’t want the British submarine fleet converted. The French fleet had already converted by 1905.

The petroleum industry was quick to capitalize and offer a cheap alternative by labelling one of its by-products as “ diesel fuel”. And so that's how dirty, stinking, polluting diesel fuel became the fuel for the Diesel engine and vegetable oil as greener cleaner less toxic fuel supply was forgotten.


dieselveg.com wrote:
We now sell waste modified vegetable oil at 66p per litre including fuel tax and VAT, you will of course get a tax paid invoice.

We can supply in 25 litre 200 litre and 1000 litre containers.

Unfortunately this is collection only as delivery costs currently outweigh savings over diesel, due of course to our governments insistence of 27.1 pence per litre fuel tax.


With the price at the pumps at around .90p/ltr and rising, I think I will be considering a collection myself.

Haddock



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Marburg, Germany
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Here are somw Websites about running cars on Veg oil. Apologies in advance but they are in German.

http://www.pflanzenoel-umruestung.de/aktion.htm

http://www.salatoeltanke.de/index.html

http://www.biocar.de/story/story1.htm


Also found out today that normal diesel in Germanyhas a 10% Bio-diesel content.
I think the main problem in UK is with the tax. I seem to remember someone in Wales recyling chip shop oil for his van and getting done for it.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Res wrote:
dieselveg.com wrote:
And so that's how dirty, stinking, polluting diesel fuel became the fuel for the Diesel engine and vegetable oil as greener cleaner less toxic fuel supply was forgotten.
You might almost think dieselveg were pushing a product!
Diesel invented a compression ignition engine, which *could* be powered by a locally sourced (ie German-grown IIRC) fuel.
Diesel's initial concept was relatively mechanically simple - and inefficient.
It is historically inaccurate to suggest that there was a massive petrol industry before WW1, and that "diesel fuel" was a waste by-product. Historically, I think petrol was an exotic by-product of the mineral (rather than whale) lamp oil industry!

Just as petrol engine technology (and fuels) evolved, so too did compression ignition engines and fuels.
The phenominal fuel efficiency of modern diesel engines is achieved at the cost of complexity and precision engineering.
Plain Veg Oil sadly isn't a good fuel for such an engine. Apart from starting difficulties, there's also a problem with build up of sticky 'gums'. Put crudely, you might run an old tractor on it, but please don't try it in an Audi A2... At the very least until you have stuck on £500 of extra parts...
But even before WW1, it was cheaper to pump the stuff out of the ground than to grow it. The reason veg oil was abandoned (even for tractors) was simple market economics, nothing more.
dieselveg.com wrote:
We now sell waste modified vegetable oil at 66p per litre including fuel tax and VAT, you will of course get a tax paid invoice.
...this is collection only as delivery costs currently outweigh savings over diesel...
OK, but note that the Chancellor is providing a 20p/litre subsidy - without which the cost would be **exactly** the same as fossil diesel! (Remember the fossil diesel is delivered locally and you don't have to make a journey to collect it!)
Therefore starting with a 'free' feedstock (waste veg oil), even with oil at $50, the actual (pre-tax) price of the fuel itself is the same! Either someone's ripping someone off or the filtering and "modification" (whazzat?) costs more than delivery to fuel station, refining, sea transport and buying the oil at $50 a barrel...
And the economic justification for buying a conversion kit would disappear if the tax break were withdrawn.

Res wrote:
With the price at the pumps at around .90p/ltr and rising, I think I will be considering a collection myself.
Its a long way from Harlow to Wolverhampton. What with the conversion cost as well, you're going to have to do a whopping mileage, and buy and transport large quantities on each trip - even 200 litres of their waste oil is going to be £132 - to avoid this being rather costly.

Now biodiesel is a completely different item to Plain (Waste) Veg Oil.
Its a very good fuel. It should be ideal for that Audi A2.
It doesn't gum up the works - in fact the opposite. It flushes out any muck thats there - so when changing to 100% bio, be prepared to change your fuel filters a couple of times... It produces less soot than fossil diesel, and much less than Plain Veg Oil, and starting isn't a problem.
And for a modern car, no conversion is required!
If it was built after 1996, it *must* be able to run ULS diesel, which could actually be 10% bio... so you should be fine!

Look up your local source on http://www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk

Summary: Pour cooking oil straight into your unmodified diesel's tank in the supermarket car park and you are asking for trouble - both from the Customs & Excise wanting tax, and in starting the engine and, long term, gumming up the fuel injectors.
Biodiesel: no problem with 1996 or later vehicles. If you homebrew it, you should pay the tax to Customs...

one spelling corrected

Last edited by dougal on Mon May 09, 05 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

Andrea



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Res wrote:
What and where is the course that you are thinking of?



Here's the link - http://www.lowimpact.org/course%20outline%20biodiesel.htm

It's the only one I've found despite much searching. If anyone is aware of another I'd be more interested.

Andrea

Andrea



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Haddock wrote:
Mercedes Diesel cars will run on Sunflower Oil. Saw a guy at Aldi supermarket *Fill up* in the car park. Apparently there's a Taxi in Berlin has been running on the stuff for a few years. Spoke to people at work who inform me that some cars dont need modifications to run on Sunflower or Rapeseed oil.



LILI also run a course on converting your diesel vehicle to run on veg oil

http://www.lowimpact.org/course%20outline%20veg%20oil%20conversion.htm

Biodiesel shouldn't require any conversion if it's modern vehicle.

Andrea

Andrea



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Haddock wrote:
Here are somw Websites about running cars on Veg oil. Apologies in advance but they are in German.


http://www.veggiepower.org.uk is pretty informative too. and it's in English!

And for buying the kit, try http://biodieselgear.com/i

Andrea

Lloyd



Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 2693

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 11:52 pm    Post subject: This may assist....Bit technical in places, but definitive . Reply with quote    

How do biodiesel emissions compare to petroleum diesel?
Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the Clean Air Act. The use of biodiesel in a conventional diesel engine results in substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter compared to emissions from diesel fuel. In addition, the exhaust emissions of sulfur oxides and sulfates (major components of acid rain) from biodiesel are essentially eliminated compared to diesel.
Of the major exhaust pollutants, both unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides are ozone or smog forming precursors. The use of biodiesel results in a substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons. Emissions of nitrogen oxides are either slightly reduced or slightly increased depending on the duty cycle of the engine and testing methods used. Based on engine testing, using the most stringent emissions testing protocols required by EPA for certification of fuels or fuel additives in the US, the overall ozone forming potential of the speciated hydrocarbon emissions from biodiesel was nearly 50 percent less than that measured for diesel fuel.
Can biodiesel help mitigate “global warming”?
A 1998 biodiesel lifecycle study, jointly sponsored by the US Department of Energy and the US Department of Agriculture, concluded biodiesel reduces net carbon dioxide
emissions by 78 percent compared to petroleum diesel. This is due to biodiesel’s closed carbon cycle. The CO² released into the atmosphere when biodiesel is burned is recycled by growing plants, which are later processed into fuel.
Is biodiesel better for human health than petroleum diesel?
Scientific research confirms that biodiesel exhaust has a less harmful impact on human health than petroleum diesel fuel. Biodiesel emissions have decreased levels of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) and nitrited PAH compounds that have been identified as potential cancer causing compounds. Test results indicate PAH compounds were reduced by 75 to 85 percent, with the exception of benzo(a)anthracene, which was reduced by roughly 50 percent. Targeted nPAH compounds were also reduced dramatically with biodiesel fuel, with 2-nitrofluorene and 1-nitropyrene reduced by 90 percent, and the rest of the nPAH compounds reduced to only trace levels.
Does biodiesel cost more than other alternative fuels?
When reviewing the high costs associated with other alternative fuel systems, many fleet managers have determined biodiesel is their least-cost-strategy to comply with state and federal regulations. Use of biodiesel does not require major engine modifications. That means operators keep their fleets, their spare parts inventories, their refueling stations and their skilled mechanics. The only thing that changes is air quality.
Do I need special storage facilities?
In general, the standard storage and handling procedures used for petroleum diesel can be used for biodiesel. The fuel should be stored in a clean, dry, dark environment. Acceptable storage tank materials include aluminum, steel, fluorinated polyethylene, fluorinated polypropylene and teflon. Copper, brass, lead, tin, and zinc should be avoided.
Can I use biodiesel in my existing diesel engine?
Biodiesel works in any diesel engine with few or no modifications to the engine or the fuel system. Biodiesel has a solvent effect that may release deposits accumulated on tank walls and pipes from previous diesel fuel storage. The release of deposits may clog filters initially and precautions should be taken. Ensure that only fuel meeting the biodiesel specification (D 6751) is used.
Where can I purchase biodiesel?
Biodiesel is available anywhere in the US. The National Biodiesel Board (NBB) maintains a list of registered fuel suppliers. A current list is available on the biodiesel web site at www.biodiesel.org or by calling NBB at (800) 841-5849.
Who can answer my questions about biodiesel?
NBB maintains the largest library of biodiesel information in the US. Information can be requested by visiting the biodiesel web site at www.biodiesel.org, by emailing the NBB at info@biodiesel.org, or by calling NBB’s toll free number (800) 841-5849.

Res



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 05 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
You might almost think dieselveg were pushing a product!


Does sound like you are to?

Or is it the knowledge your selling?

Blue Peter



Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 2400
Location: Milton Keynes
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 05 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

The Centre for Alternative Technology (www.cat.org.uk) also do a biodiesel course, though looking at the blurb, it seems to be the same one as LILI


Peter.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 05 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Res wrote:
dougal wrote:
You might almost think dieselveg were pushing a product!

Does sound like you are to?
Or is it the knowledge your selling?

For the avoidance of all doubt - I am not selling anything.
I am not, and have never been, involved in the fuel business.
The nearest I come is to having worked, twenty years ago, for a company selling a non-toxic anti-fouling product to the offshore industry. Oh and I have a brother who works abroad as a trader in bunker oil for shipping.
Currently, circumstances mean I don't even drive a diesel.
But I do have a science degree, and longstanding interest in both cars and renewable energy, and studied this area a couple of years ago, purely out of personal interest.

This thread was on biodiesel courses until hijacked by a story about pouring cooking oil into a Merc in a german supermarket car park.
I have sought to explain WHY that is NOT such a good idea for most folk in the UK. And WHY biodiesel is a better solution for anyone driving a post-1996 vehicle and paying their taxes.
"Dieselveg" are selling their approach. And I think it would be financial and ecological nonsense for someone to travel from Harlow to Wolverhampton for fuel - I hope I have explained WHY, rather than simply stating an opinion and trying to "play the man rather than the ball".

As an entirely seperate aspect, I lose respect for any sales literature (such as dieselveg's site) that states or implies that ISO 9001 applies to product quality - that plainly demonstrates a lack of understanding of what one is talking about (or possibly a desire to mislead). ISO 9001 applies to the company not the product. It is about how the company's Quality Control management and NOT how good the product is!

Res



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 05 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
I am not selling anything.


OK, point taken.

With your knowledge of bio-diesel then, would you be willing to write up a brief outline of how to make it for those of us that are interested before we shell out £180 for the course?

Haddock



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Marburg, Germany
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 05 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:

This thread was on biodiesel courses until hijacked by a story about pouring cooking oil into a Merc in a german supermarket car park.



Didn't realise I made Bader Meinhof status

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 05 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Haddock wrote:
dougal wrote:
This thread was on biodiesel courses until hijacked by a story about pouring cooking oil into a Merc in a german supermarket car park.

Didn't realise I made Bader Meinhof status

Sorry if I was (unusually for me) too terse. And the initial "thread hijack" (common net usage for altering the topic I believe) was actually down to Res not youself - again, my apologies. However, I have to admit that I was taken aback by your sweeping initial comment "Mercedes Diesel cars will run on Sunflower Oil. " - Which, in later posts you did correct somewhat.
Trying to run any *unmodified* modern car on Pure Veg Oil is foolhardy. Regardless or not whether it is possible.
However any unmodified modern diesel car should run very happily on good quality biodiesel.

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