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What's your view on this?
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OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 7:52 am    Post subject: What's your view on this?  Reply with quote    

There are few places nearby (even where we live in Wharfedale) where we can let our dog run off the lead. I don't mean run amok either (we are still in control of him).
A favourite place to go is Ilkley Moor. It's big, mostly heather, bilberry and the odd patch of bracken or bog. Sheep are grazed on it and grouse too (to be shot of course).
There's always been a tension between the dog-walkers, the people who want the grouse to do well and the sheep farmers. The latter two seem to see dogs as public enemy number one.
It is true that there are some totally brainless dog-owners who do let their dogs run out of control and now and again sheep/lambs are attacked and killed. But the vast majority of regular dog-walkers do control them adequately.
It is also true that sheep regularly wander off the moor (sections of road by it are unfenced) and cause traffic mayhem.
The Grouse just get blasted to bits once a year by the fee-paying shooters.
It does seem a bit odd to me that as far as the shooters are concerned groups of sheep are not seen to damage grouse nests but dogs are.
I won't rant on either about people who buy takeaways in Ilkley, drive up to the Moor to eat them (presumably to enjoy the views) and chuck the wrappers, cans, etc out the windows and drive off

The moor is a big place (it and the adjacent Rombalds Moor covers many square miles) and almost none of it is fenced (presumably so the sheep can roam where they want). Most of the moor is also never visited by walkers and dogs and the nesting birds only have to contend with grazing sheep trampling their nests/chicks.
Each year more notices appear that tell you to keep your dog on a lead 'to protect the nesting birds from March to July'. There are also notices saying 'Lambing Season - keep your dog on a short lead'. Unfortunately these lambing season notices are left up all year.
I have been confronted by aggressive, rude farmers on several occasions shouting at me for not having my dog on a lead. I've responded in kind but it does put you off going to the same place again (well it might if I wasn't so stubborn).
A new group has sprung up to try and stop the shooting on Ilkley Moor. They see themselves as anti-blood sports. I'm inclined to join them just to put some pressure on the shooters to stop trying to hog the entire moor for themselves (I don't see why large areas can't be fenced off but I assume no-one wants to pay for it). I like eating game birds so obviously I'm not against shooting birds for food.

Point is, it seems difficult to reconcile the three groups needs. What do you think?

Cathryn



Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19830
Location: Ceredigion
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Are you sure there is tension between those who shoot and the sheep farmers and between most of the farmers and most of the walkers with dogs? Are you hearing just a vocal few?

Not all farmers, dog walkers and people who pay to shoot for the day are rough ignorant and abusive. Some farmers are dog walkers and shoot etc etc

Please don't reinforce stereotypes.

Hairyloon



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15337
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: What's your view on this? Reply with quote    

OtleyLad wrote:
Point is, it seems difficult to reconcile the three groups needs. What do you think?

I think you are confusing "need" with "want".

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Cathryn wrote:
Are you sure there is tension between those who shoot and the sheep farmers and between most of the farmers and most of the walkers with dogs? Are you hearing just a vocal few?


I'm absolutely sure there's a tension - it's a regular thing in the local press.
Here's a notice:


Cathryn wrote:
Not all farmers, dog walkers and people who pay to shoot for the day are rough ignorant and abusive. Some farmers are dog walkers and shoot etc etc
Please don't reinforce stereotypes.



I used the word all just once in the whole post - and not in reference to any group of people. I think you have misread the post.

Last edited by OtleyLad on Sat May 31, 14 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: What's your view on this? Reply with quote    

Hairyloon wrote:
OtleyLad wrote:
Point is, it seems difficult to reconcile the three groups needs. What do you think?

I think you are confusing "need" with "want".


I meant here that given they all have valid needs (which I may not agree with) it's not a simple thing to arrive at a fair/workeable compromise.

Woo



Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 787
Location: Mayenne, Pays de Loire
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Is it common land?

I can see why the farmers get mad at unchecked dogs who do damage on THEIR land.
The same for the grouse. IF it is private property, then, yes they should be able to make the rules.

But I like to see well controlled dogs being able to run too.
You seem like a live and let live chap to me, so I can empathize in your frustration.

My dog likes to run with the deer here in the forest. he does no actual harm. He spends hours sniffing them out them returns after a good sprint round and collapses into the nearest puddle.
Trouble is other walkers worry he is hunting. he is also super friendly and the french seem concerned that any big dog of mixed breed is vicious and freak out when he says hello. sadly he now spends most of his walks on a long line lead.

Cathryn



Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19830
Location: Ceredigion
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Maybe I overreacted Otley Lad. We are easy going here. I twitch slightly when I see a dog galloping around the open access field outside the kitchen window but they have all been biddable and not a problem. One killed a hen once. Most people stick to the marked paths. Our own dogs are not allowed to run around during lambing time.

Woo, your dog is predator, deer are prey. Think how they must feel.

Woo



Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 787
Location: Mayenne, Pays de Loire
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Cathryn wrote:


Woo, your dog is predator, deer are prey. Think how they must feel.


That's why he had the long lead now. that and shagging the neighbour's bitch!

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Woo wrote:
Is it common land?

I can see why the farmers get mad at unchecked dogs who do damage on THEIR land.
The same for the grouse. IF it is private property, then, yes they should be able to make the rules.

But I like to see well controlled dogs being able to run too.
You seem like a live and let live chap to me, so I can empathize in your frustration.

My dog likes to run with the deer here in the forest. he does no actual harm. He spends hours sniffing them out them returns after a good sprint round and collapses into the nearest puddle.
Trouble is other walkers worry he is hunting. he is also super friendly and the french seem concerned that any big dog of mixed breed is vicious and freak out when he says hello. sadly he now spends most of his walks on a long line lead.


The land is owned by Bradford City Counci - so in that sense its common.

vegplot



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21298
Location: Ynys Môn
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Dogs shouldn't be off the lead. Anywhere except with owners permission.

madcat



Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 1265
Location: worcester
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

My sympathies are with the sheep. There are too many uncontrolled and downright dangerous dogs about.

Your problem Otley Lad is caused by irresponsible idiots with dogs.

The place for dogs is no where near other folks livestock. They cause stress at the least and often far worse.

Sheep are sentiment beings with instincts and feelings. Sheep have a value .

Litterbugs, they are everywhere. Public access means idiot access. I'm fed up of pulling takeaway rubbish and unwanted household stuff out of the local canal.

You've touched a raw nerve, unprovoked attack by a large dog in a public place scared the shit out of me never mind a sheep.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35900
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

maybe a good compromise would be to fence a large(say 100 acre)area for free running mutts and keep em on a lead/close control on the rest of the moor

my two ,saluki and saluki/grey run on a 70 acre flood plain which is fenced or bounded by a big river and is stock free.i still need to be aware of potential problems and avoid them "playing"with other mutts who would either die of a heart attack or get brought back to me as live catch by two very athletic beasts .

the saluki/grey wears a muzzle when running which has made me consider that a big ,stock free, area for dogs with muzzles to run free would be a good idea in all areas ,it would reduce the problem to almost zero if folk respected each others wants

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 35900
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

ps unwormed mutts do more damage to stock than worriers imho .

NorthernMonkeyGirl



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 4357
Location: Peeping over your shoulder
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

madcat wrote:
My sympathies are with the sheep. There are too many uncontrolled and downright dangerous dogs about.

Your problem Otley Lad is caused by irresponsible idiots with dogs.

The place for dogs is no where near other folks livestock. They cause stress at the least and often far worse.

Sheep are sentiment beings with instincts and feelings. Sheep have a value .

Litterbugs, they are everywhere. Public access means idiot access. I'm fed up of pulling takeaway rubbish and unwanted household stuff out of the local canal.

You've touched a raw nerve, unprovoked attack by a large dog in a public place scared the shit out of me never mind a sheep.



Bingo.

Even when I worked with my sheepdog on public-access land checking sheep, she had to be put on the lead when not actively gathering, just so every eejit didn't think "oh it's okay for them, I'll just let off my three alsatians to run off some steam".

Incidentally, ground nesting birds are getting rarer because there is just more pressure on the same area of land from livestock, people, dogs, farming methods....

So I really do sympathise but I'm not sure there's a solution, especially so close to major urban areas.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 14 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dpack wrote:
ps unwormed mutts do more damage to stock than worriers imho .


This.

Probably 60-70% of dog walkers I encounter are in control of their animals and quite a few clean up after themselves but a growing number are now getting dogs and not being in control of them or cleaning up after them in public places or on private land. An awful lot of people seem to think that private land is there for their dogs to toilet on & that they don't have to clean it up. We've put up barriers in gateways to stop people entering but they either climb over or move the barrier to one side.

However, that's hardly relevant, as this is a shared space that you're talking about. It's difficult for a farmer to know whether your dog is under control or if you are cleaning up after it but both things are far more likely if the dog is on a lead. Also your dog will not be shot if it is on a lead. You should behave as in other public shared spaces - if you wouldn't do it on the street, don't do it on the moor, basically.

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