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What is cider ?
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Falstaff



Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 15 5:40 pm    Post subject: What is cider ?  Reply with quote    

There are some quite "odd Ciders" about these days - with all sorts of extraneous ingrediments

SO is there a specific definition of Cider - or is it a bit like "Free Range chickens" ?

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34030
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 15 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-162-cider-production/excise-notice-162-cider-production

Section 2.1 and 30.

Cathryn



Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19830
Location: Ceredigion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 15 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

It's the first alcoholic drink that I remember being introduced to, loved it ever since. Not all of it though. I rarely enjoy the holier than thou still scrumpy type of stuff bought direct from the farm. And anything with added sweeteners.... yeuucchh!

Does that help?

vegplot



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21298
Location: Ynys Môn
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 15 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Old Rosie. There is no other cider. I've not touched it for nearly 6 years.

sean
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41976
Location: North Devon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 15 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

There was a young lady from Ryde
Who ate some green apples and died
The apples fermented
Inside the lamented
Made cider inside her inside.

Chez



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 35907
Location: The Hive of the Uberbee, Quantock Hills, Somerset
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Apples and a dead rat. Cloudy and flat, served at room temperature. The rest of it is vile.

Lorrainelovesplants



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6514
Location: Dordogne
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Lot of silly nonsense.
Some makers (wont name names) actually dont have ANY apple in it at all. Just glucose concentrate and flavourings.
Some have jacked it up with sugar to a high alcohol level and then water it down to session cider ABV and add caramel for colour and malic acid for mouthfeel (this is your very commercial brand names)
Then there are craft cider producers - like me. Its 100% juice from British apples thats fermented, matured and either bottled or bagged. I can either pasteurise or not as the market requires, and have started doing bottle conditioned cider (thats naturally sparkling to those who dont know).
Ive been shortlisted for another award too.

Last autumn did 1800L. Ive only got 200L left which will be gione by the end of summer. This autumn doing 3000L.
Only wish Id taken Bodger's advice and done it sooner (but realistically, didnt have the money then).

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34030
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I'll name names. Bulmers (strongbow, etc) use concentrate from Germany, despite being based amongst orchards.

Westons (Old Rosie, for example) use local apples, and quite a lot of sheep shit.

Falstaff



Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nick wrote:
I'll name names. Bulmers (strongbow, etc) use concentrate from Germany, ........


That's interesting Nick. It was the price of apple juice in Lidl (made from concentrate) and the present abundance of Elderflowers which led me to ask.

Thanks for your input Lorraine, that's highly educational.

So according to "the rules" (post 2010 apparently)- In order to be called cider - at least 35% of the mix must be of apple juice at 1033 or better.

(as an aside the "minima" alone, would give a drink approx 1% abv - which could not be called cider !)

The "juice" is allowed to be made from concentrate and as much sugar (including high fructose corn sugar) and water can be added as seems convenient.

Lorraine - is there an implication in what you wrote that your "unnamed" producer, "gets round" these regs by whacking a load of sugar in, so they can call it "cider" then afterwards dilutes it to a "drinkable level" ? or do you think the 35% rule would still apply to the diluted product ?

Lorrainelovesplants



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6514
Location: Dordogne
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

A lot depends on the finished product and duty rates.
If your cider is of an ABV above a certain limit, you pay higher rate duty. If it contains anything other than apples (ie has blackberry or raspberry or whatever added) it is then a fruit wine, and attracts a higher level of duty.
This obviously has a bearing on producers and you will find that the ciders with added fruit etc are aimed at the younger end of the market. HOWEVER, as this is a fast growing market, and commercial cider can be made all year at the drop of a hat (as it were) even established traditional makers are jumping on the band wagon - after all, its just another batch to them.

I get one bite at it - from Sept to Dec, and this all has to be finished, blended etc, so I need to know what Im doing with my 'raw' cider by end of Feb.
I need to have some plain old 6% still cider for my pub and my traditionalists, and Ive settled on bottle carbonation for the rest. As a one person producer, this is enough for me to keep my eyes on.
You wont see Kiwi or vanilla going into any cider here!
(although Ive made some with a touch of elderflower FOR MY PERSONAL CONSUMPTION).
labelling regs are not strict enough in my mind, but if you look at the back label and just see the order of ingredients....some foreign 'ciders' first ingredient is water, followed by sugar......

Lorrainelovesplants



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6514
Location: Dordogne
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Small industry - naming no names

Cathryn



Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19830
Location: Ceredigion
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I will have to try yours Lorraine. What annoys me is that some of them don't have clear ingredients on them at all. Apart from apples, strawberries, cherries.

Chez



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 35907
Location: The Hive of the Uberbee, Quantock Hills, Somerset
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Lorraine's is lovely, really nice stuff.

Lorrainelovesplants



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6514
Location: Dordogne
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

not 'vile' then?

Lorrainelovesplants



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6514
Location: Dordogne
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 15 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Cathryn - any time your down this way.

I am looking at Mail order. Its the legalities of selling (licence -wise) that I need to look at.

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