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Penny Outskirts

Apprentices

We may be expanding a bit soon (meep!) and have been looking into taking on a couple of apprentices, one to learn the shop side and one to learn the print side of the business.

When talking to people about it, quite a lot of made comments along the lines of "slave labour" .

It's worried us a bit. It seems a win win for everyone concerned. We can't afford to take on staff under normal circumstances, and without them we can't grow to give the the potential of fully paid future jobs. The apprentices will get experience in the workplace, training and recognised qualifications, whilst earning a more than pocket money and more than benefits. The country will have two less young people out of work and on benefits.

It doesn't feel like we're taking advantage of them, but that seems to be the initial reaction of many people.
nora

My son (age 23) has got a place in college to to a mechanical engineering apprenticeship but is finding it very difficult to get a placement as a lot of places don't take on apprentices and those that do get their places filled very quickly. I feel that apprenticeships are a good way to learn and get a qualification, even if the pay may be low, the apprentice learns a skill and gets a qualification too.
I'd say go for it Penny, there could be someone just hoping for a chance like that.
Went

Re: Apprentices


It's worried us a bit. It seems a win win for everyone concerned. We can't afford to take on staff under normal circumstances, and without them we can't grow to give the the potential of fully paid future jobs. The apprentices will get experience in the workplace, training and recognised qualifications, whilst earning a more than pocket money and more than benefits. The country will have two less young people out of work and on benefits.

It doesn't feel like we're taking advantage of them, but that seems to be the initial reaction of many people.


A boss with a conscience - I am sure they will have a valuable experience and as you say two young people gaining experience and making some money.
Green Rosie

When I left Uni I wanted a job in countryside management but I didn't have enough practical experience so I worked as a volunteer warden with the National Trust for 6 months whilst also volunteering for BTCV and Glos Wildlife Trust ... all therefore unpaid. I would have loved the chance to get an apprenticeship and be paid something as I learnt what I needed to. Everyone has to start somewhere but I think too many school leavers today think they can just walk straight into a well paid job and do not see that a good apprenticeship will give them such an advantage in later years.
toggle

problem is that pprenticeships have been labelled in a certain way with things like the tescos 'apprenticeships' from the work program.

you know you aren't going to treat someone like that. so don't worry
jema

Only you know the the truth of the situation.

If you are planning on taking on a never ending stream of kids, in order to run a business on the cheap undermining those paying real wages it is one thing.
If you see this as a short term win/win situation it is another.
Cathryn

Apprenticeships should be about teaching people skills with a long term view. The company will want to keep them if it works well.

The other bastardized apprenticeships happening at the moment should be a part of induction training and done in a week or two.

Some of the training programmes I have come across have been replacements for poor quality education. They would have been completely unnecessary if the child had received an even half decent education. They were a pragmatic solution at the time but it is really time that problems in the system were dealt with and not layered up with another system.

What was the question? Wink
Penny Outskirts

Apprenticeships should be about teaching people skills with a long term view. The company will want to keep them if it works well.

The other bastardized apprenticeships happening at the moment should be a part of induction training and done in a week or two.

Some of the training programmes I have come across have been replacements for poor quality education. They would have been completely unnecessary if the child had received an even half decent education. They were a pragmatic solution at the time but it is really time that problems in the system were dealt with and not layered up with another system.

What was the question? Wink


Think you've answered it, whatever it was Laughing

I think we're doing a positive thing, if at the end of it, we have helped to young people get skills that will help them in their working lives, and grown our business, that can't be a bad thing. The standard of the college course we can't influence much, but it'll only be one day a week, so if it's crap, we can help them with that.
mochyn

There's nothing at all wrong with genuinge aprenticeships which include training towards qualifications. I'd say go for it.

The thing that does get my goat is 'internships'. Now those ARE slave labour.
woodsprite

In the autumn I will be looking for an arts admin intern and I've had similar worries Penny. However, after meeting with several universities, I'm certain that it will be a good thing. In fact the news that we might want to take on an intern got to the final year students at one of the uni's and I was inundated with requests. Even grads with good degrees are struggling to find work and are only too grateful to get that first step up. Rob R

I started in work that way & never once felt hard done by for the 35/wk I got - there was no prospect of a job at the end of it, I was there for 15 months & that was it, the opportunity was there to work more hours & earn minimum wage, but I never felt I had to.

I think a few cases of large companies, blown out of all proportion by the media, a few politicians (probably doing it for political point scoring) & a select few people who don't believe in the value of work beyond money have really done the whole apprenticeship scheme a great disservice.
Jamanda

I certainly know a few young people who want to do apprenticeships but can't find anyone to take them on. Ty Gwyn

As someone who done an apprenticeship as a bricklayer with a small builder,i was one of 5 apprentices,all aged 16yrs,
Yes,the money was rubbish compared to others the same age in factory or the Mines,but we learned a trade,and with a trade ,you will never starve,there is always someone wanting something done.
But reading some of the posts above,seems to highlight the problem,that some want to go on to further education,then find an apprenticeship,small firms will give preferance to 16yr olds who want to start work,and of course ,they pay them less because of their age,but it works both ways,the 16yr old is qualified by the time the older applicant is thinking about starting work,when most of the posts have been taken.
Mary-Jane

I can't think of two people who are more suited to giving a couple of youngsters a chance, along with excellent supervision. Jamanda

As someone who done an apprenticeship as a bricklayer with a small builder,i was one of 5 apprentices,all aged 16yrs,
Yes,the money was rubbish compared to others the same age in factory or the Mines,but we learned a trade,and with a trade ,you will never starve,there is always someone wanting something done.
But reading some of the posts above,seems to highlight the problem,that some want to go on to further education,then find an apprenticeship,small firms will give preferance to 16yr olds who want to start work,and of course ,they pay them less because of their age,but it works both ways,the 16yr old is qualified by the time the older applicant is thinking about starting work,when most of the posts have been taken.

The ones I was talking about are 16, or will be soon.
Lorrainelovesplants

I think good apprenticeships are a good thing. I will be looking for Kieran to take one on when the time comes - so he'll be badly paid - so what - he'll learn a trade and we can help him until he qualifies.

He will have a trade at the end of it...and a lot of on job experience.

So dont you feel bad about it.

My brother is a manager in an engineering firm in Glasgow they cant fill apprentiships because kids think they know it all and dont want low pay!
Ty Gwyn

[quote="Jamanda:

The ones I was talking about are 16, or will be soon.[/quote]


I m a one finger typer,your post was nt there when i posted,

Of course its harder to find employment now compared to 1970,like i was talking about,when you could pick and choose where you wanted to work,
But i still stand by,a 16yr old will have a better chance than someone in their 20s of finding an apprenticeship.
Rob R

As someone who done an apprenticeship as a bricklayer with a small builder,i was one of 5 apprentices,all aged 16yrs,
Yes,the money was rubbish compared to others the same age in factory or the Mines,but we learned a trade,and with a trade ,you will never starve,there is always someone wanting something done.
But reading some of the posts above,seems to highlight the problem,that some want to go on to further education,then find an apprenticeship,small firms will give preferance to 16yr olds who want to start work,and of course ,they pay them less because of their age,but it works both ways,the 16yr old is qualified by the time the older applicant is thinking about starting work,when most of the posts have been taken.

*nods in agreement*
Jamanda

Not sure I follow that. An apprentice gets paid the same however old they are. They certainly reapply, sometimes successfully, in subseqent years if they don't find one first time round. Rosemary Judy

Do it Penny.

We had an administrative apprentice in my last job, she got a brilliant training,and she loved it.

Mr RJ always had apprentice every year, and they have all gone on to get good jobs. He managed to keep some on, as proper vacancies arrived, so it is a good scheme. They never worked any harder than he did....
Penny Outskirts

It's the skills thing that's the key isn't it. One of ours will come out with a qualification in digital printing and textile design, the other in Retail Store management and customer service.

Taking them on just as cheap labour is what goes wrong. I have to say though, the lady from the apprentice office was very thourough in her questions, to make sure it was a genuine opportunity. I suppose that does give some hope.
Penny Outskirts

I can't think of two people who are more suited to giving a couple of youngsters a chance, along with excellent supervision.

Embarassed
woodsprite

The young people that we will be approaching already have the qualifications but need the practical experience in order to move into the jobs that they want. This is a massive problem for graduates in all areas and spending 6 or 12 months with a small company such as mine will give them free reign to apply all they've learnt, much more so than ith a big company and the all important CV experience. 12Bore

It's the skills thing that's the key isn't it. One of ours will come out with a qualification in digital printing and textile design, the other in Retail Store management and customer service.

Taking them on just as cheap labour is what goes wrong. I have to say though, the lady from the apprentice office was very thourough in her questions, to make sure it was a genuine opportunity. I suppose that does give some hope.
Sounds as though they will learn, earn, and come out with a qualification. Win, win, win. I don't see what's stopping you. Very Happy
Rosemary Judy

With young people, you will need to be really clear about 'acceptable office behaviour ', this didn't happen on day one with our admin girl, and I had to be the meanie, and explain that mobile phones are not allowed, at least not every five seconds..... toggle

It's the skills thing that's the key isn't it. One of ours will come out with a qualification in digital printing and textile design, the other in Retail Store management and customer service.

Taking them on just as cheap labour is what goes wrong. I have to say though, the lady from the apprentice office was very thourough in her questions, to make sure it was a genuine opportunity. I suppose that does give some hope.


you're not taking on someone into an unpaid role, and yuou are actually training them, giving them skills they can use in other jobs and a qualification that you are prepared to assist them with if the teaching they get isn't up to scratch. this ins't a 6 month unpaid 'apprenticeship' in shelf stacking in tescos. what you are describing is the way an apprenticeship should be.

i'm probably one of the people on here who has spent most time complaining about the abuse of apprenticeships as cheap/unpaid labour and I think you should go for it.
nora



My brother is a manager in an engineering firm in Glasgow they cant fill apprentiships because kids think they know it all and dont want low pay!

Pity we don't live in Glasgow, my son would be going along to ask your brother to take him on. Very Happy
Ty Gwyn

Not sure I follow that. An apprentice gets paid the same however old they are. They certainly reapply, sometimes successfully, in subseqent years if they don't find one first time round.

Not when i did my trade they didnt,apprentice wages rose with age.

My Son done a CITB towards the end of the 90s,i believe that also rose with age,but will check with him to be sure.

Even the Minimum Wage is age related.
Penny Outskirts

Not sure I follow that. An apprentice gets paid the same however old they are. They certainly reapply, sometimes successfully, in subseqent years if they don't find one first time round.

Not when i did my trade they didnt,apprentice wages rose with age.

My Son done a CITB towards the end of the 90s,i believe that also rose with age,but will check with him to be sure.

Even the Minimum Wage is age related.
It doesn't rise with age now, but if they're 19 and under 24 we have to pay half their college costs, under 19 it's funded, and over 24 we have to pay it all.
Jamanda

Ah, part of the government's measures to get the long term unemployed into work Rolling Eyes Ty Gwyn

[quote="Penny Outskirts
It doesn't rise with age now, but if they're 19 and under 24 we have to pay half their college costs, under 19 it's funded, and over 24 we have to pay it all.[/quote]

Thats certainly changed,just had a look at the minimum wage rates and apprentice rates,i m sure we had 2 rises each year,but i did start on 4.00 something,so seeing a fiver in your pay packet made a difference.
Rob R

Not sure I follow that. An apprentice gets paid the same however old they are. They certainly reapply, sometimes successfully, in subseqent years if they don't find one first time round.

Not when i did my trade they didnt,apprentice wages rose with age.

My Son done a CITB towards the end of the 90s,i believe that also rose with age,but will check with him to be sure.

Even the Minimum Wage is age related.

Yeah, I think I got an extra fiver a week when I turned 17.
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