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Jam Lady

Beautiful Cattle

Have seen them before, but usually in the distance. Today they were up at the end of their pasture close to the road. So on my way home I pulled in to the driveway and walked along the fence to get some pictures. Lovely group of

British White cattle! quietly relaxing in the shade on a summer day

Not what I would have expected to see, here in the great Garden State of New Jersey.

Good to know there are other herds around, I don't think that there are many of them left

nice looking moos

I do love coos.... such pretty eyes..

Lovely cattle-quiet breed from what I remember of a herd I went to see at a rare breeds farm in Dorset a long time ago. I didn't get the job, mores the pity.
Ty Gwyn

Of the ones I`ve seen in rare breed sales,these cattle in New Jersey are by far better quality.

That is right Ty Gwyn, they do look well filled in New Jersey compared to those I saw in UK, I believe in fit not fat but what do I know I'm a pig man!

They are beautiful! I thought they were White Park Cattle, are they different breeds? Or are they differently named in the US?
Ty Gwyn

Different breeds,White Park are horned and a lot older breed,British White are polled,but their black points are similar,could possibly be graded up from an Angus crossing way back giving the polled gene,similar to Murray Grey cattle in Australia.

Thank you Smile

They are beautiful! I thought they were White Park Cattle, are they different breeds? Or are they differently named in the US?

I think Chris Reeves had some and there were photos on here. Reevesrarebreeds, maybe? Can't find anything using search. But. Lovely white cattle with dangerous horns up near Stafford or somewhere.
Jam Lady

These might be American British White cattle. Not sure of the differences but there is a breed registry with that name. They're described as a calm breed, good mothers, stocky frame, bred for meat but also a mention of good milkers (for calves, maybe?) If I ever stop at the house, knock at the door and ask questions I'll let you know.

chillingham, park and british are all whiteish cattle but they are very different critters (dead, worried at times and relaxing Laughing)

the NJ ones look like ace beasts and compare well with the breed club examples from both sides of the pond as below.

usa ones to compare with uk ones
Ty Gwyn

Chillingham are White Park cattle in Northumberland I believe.

chillingham have been a closed herd since the middle ages,

very very savage.

they have some aurochs anatomy especially in the feet

very very savage

they are managed from a distance with no handling, vet interference etc etc . (cull with buffalo gun from a safe distance is used as a kindness or to get the castle christmas roast )
if you handle one it's chums will shun it and might kill it
the ones that were moved to protect the genetics in case of disaster were "surprised" and woke up in scotland, decided they were all in it together and just got on with life
the herd changes bull every 3 to 5 yrs with the young bull herd doing cow n calf protection and sparring while each waits for the chance to kill the king
a few kings rejoin the young bull group if deposed, some go solitary, some die of wounds ( or are culled kindly)
they are more nimble than their size might suggest and anything closer than about 50m on foot is likely to get one killed unless there is a safe refuge very close , they usually decide to kill you when you are about 30m away, they give little warning.
they go for vehicles closer than about 25 m
sometimes they hide for a surprise

very very savage

i like em , rob and myself were lucky enough to get a personal tour from the head moo keeper who carried a very large pistol, never got out of the rather solid vehicle if he could avoid it and had a realistic view of his charming critters .

very very savage moos

park and brit white are domesticated
chillingham are not domesticated, they are contained by a long boundary wall
but it is their land and they are very very savage

i spose they have proven ideal for deterring intruders around a borders castle Twisted Evil
Ty Gwyn

The Dynefor herd of White Park cattle before the dispersal of the Dynefor estate in the 1970`s sometime,went back in time to the Princes of Deheubarth,Dynefor castle in Llandeilo,

There was/is a herd in the Vaynor estate in North Wales,

The Chillingham herd are still White Park cattle,they are just not domesticated.
Jam Lady

Cars in the driveway so I pulled in at the house next to the pasture with British White cattle. Not their cattle, but they know the woman who owns them. And they are British White, not American British White.

Owner is English. She's not satisfied with AI breeding. Has her own bull / herd sire.

Left a link to this thread on Downsizer. Also left my name and e-mail. Looking forward to speaking with her.

Just another interesting day in the great Garden State of New Jersey.

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

we think you have nice moos Laughing
Jam Lady

Yesterday I spoke with the woman who owns the British White cattle. We had a very nice chat, and I have been invited to come see the two new calves. She sent me pictures and they are so sweet!

Gregotyn, guess what? Back in the late 1970s she was a veterinarian - in Wales!

Whereabouts in Wales, was the cattle lady-north or south-I am in mid-east Wales, near England-6 crow flying miles.
Jam Lady

We spent a couple of hours walking among the cattle in two different pastures. Francis, the herd bull, is so calm that we could go into the pasture with him, some cows, and two new calves.

There was some forefoot scuffling when we first came in, but he doesn't know me.

And yes, he has scurs.

Gregotyn, herd owner went to veterinary school in Bristol, and told me she lived in south Wales.
Ty Gwyn

Scur`s,do you mean Horns?
Jam Lady

Ty Gwyn, scurs are not horns. Horns are attached to the skull. Scurs are not. You can gently tug on a scur and it wobbles a bit.

British White are polled cattle. Poll is dominant to horned. So cattle with Pp genetics are polled / no horns. But even PP can have scurs because it is a different gene.

"Scurs are small horn-like structures that, in young cattle, are usually not attached to the skull. They often look like small horn buds, and can vary in shape and length. In older cattle, they can sometimes attach to the skull like a horn. Having scurs is a separate trait to being polled or having horns."

"To emphasize the difference between scurs and horns, cattle should be classified as smooth-polled, scurred-polled or horned. Remember that all smooth-polled and scurred polled cattle have at least one gene for the polled condition. However, horned cattle can never carry a polled gene."
Ty Gwyn

Yes I know British White are polled,that`s why I asked the question on seeing the horn/scur,i have seen that in cattle that have not been de-horned properly ,young cattle were the buds as you say wobble and in older cattle were the horn structure has grown and become securely attached.
Not heard about naturally occurring scurs before so will look that up,
But have bred cattle for most of my life,and at one time had polled cattle as sucklers Angus x Friesian/polled cross horned,and them crossed with horned still produced polled and their daughters again crossed with horned still produced polled,so I remain sceptical until I read up on this occurrence.
Jam Lady

The genetics go like this, Ty Gwyn.

Polled / no horns is dominant. Cattle with PP or Pp will not have horns

Horned cattle must only have pp genes.

This mean that Pp cattle are not horned but if two with Pp in their genome are bred together the odds are

25% PP = no horns
50% Pp = no horns
25% pp = horns

Without genetic testing you don't know if your polled cattle - cows and bulls - are PP or Pp. And Pp X Pp can produce horned offspring.

Understand that statistics being what they are odds are, well, odd. The coin is flipped anew each time.
Ty Gwyn

Genetics also hold colour genes so picking the right colour Sire can raise the percentage of obtaining the preferred colour off spring,this is in Horse`s.

Looking at them percentages of No horns against horns,what stands out is where the British White derived from.

Over in the US they have American White`s which complicates the situation again.
Jam Lady

A website entry with some pictures

British White Cattle
Ty Gwyn

I`d change the pregnant to 9mth 8 days, 11mths is a Horse

Check out the breed standard on this link,
Jam Lady

Appreciate your comment, Ty Gwyn. I made the change, will see if Diane has any comment or correction.
Ty Gwyn

Did you notice what was said about the head in the breed standards?
Jam Lady

Yes, Ty Gwyn. In the show ring none of the cattle will have scurs. Perhaps Francis has other characteristics - his calm temperament, perhaps - that make him desirable on a home farm, even with his scurs.
Jam Lady

British White Cattle in Autumn

nice moos looking happy is a good way to start my day , thanks.

They are very lovely!
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