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john

BUILDING ON FLOOD PLAINS IS JUST PLAIN CRAZY?

Idea Yes,we are building on flood plains to give people a roof over their heads,but at what cost if the water level rise suddenly like in America.
I think all the people involved in building the houses in the UK,in the normal way on flood plains are crazy. I believe every building by law built on flood plains should be built with a lower section space for vehicles and storage only,to help raise the building up by at least 10 feet from the ground surface. This would mean for example every building with a pathway outside it now,would have the same thing but there would be another pathway above that in line with the front door of the building it was outside. This way would mean you would still have the lower ground area as a garden or a drive way or what ever,but if in the case of any flooding,the living area would be less likely to be damaged,and lose of life too. Yes this way would mean using steps or a lift to go up or down to go to your vehicle or garden,but if it meant saving your life and property in a flood situation then I think it's crazy not to build houses on a flood plain in any other way. Whilst the Thames barrier will stop high water,water will still find it's own level,so it will back up until it finds lower ground,then it will come in behind them if we don't do something now to help our selve's. If we don't build higher walkways or barriers all round our rivers and streams nature will win. Yes it would make the Thames narrower for example,but it would work,after all whilst the Thames has already been made to look better,now is the time to start doing something about stopping our country from drowning if we can. Other benefits to my idea are most walkways could go over roadways,with the same street lighting to light up the road and both walkways at the same time if my idea was used,this would also make for cleaner walkways,of course there will be problems with a new way of living on a flood plain,but at least people would have a chance to survive in a flood situation along with every one else,and any business could have their deliveries made easier,plus in the case of a flood the stock could be replaced,and business carry on, For all those people who are already living on a flood plain,I wish you a long and happy life. John JRP.
tahir

JOhn I can't disagree with you, there are too many places worldwide where people are encouraged to live on flood plains. Lunacy.
jema

In the developed world it clearly is crazy.

Elsewhere flood plains can be very fertile areas, and as I understand people make an intelligent assessement that the risk is acceptable for the benefit.
Josey Wales

A success story Very Happy

http://www.no-asda.org/glossary.shtml
Treacodactyl

The concept of building on stilts or other raised structures is nothing new at all. It was surprising to see how many old Sussex buildings were built in such way. The problem of leaving cars under the builidng is that the main cost of floods would be material and a new car is very expensive.

Better to try and stop the stupid demand for extra housing IMHO. The population isn't increasing so why have more housing? At least why build on countryside?
john

Report highlights threat of floods.

:idea:We can put buildings on flood plains,I say,if we build them all up higher.
Greenwich and Lewisham: Development will 'make matters worse'as reported in our local news paper,as shown 12-10-2005.
The risk of severe flooding to parts of London is not being taken seriously enough,according to the authors of a new report.
The London Assembly environment committee report says the 1.25m residents and workers in the Thames Estuary area are at risk from flooding - New Orleans style. And they say new development in the area could make the problem worse. The report also revealed there is confusion over who runs the city's defence system,which is thought to be in a worse state towards the coast.
The report states lessons need to be learned from the devastating effects of Hurricane Katrina,and calls for a clarification of who is responsible for flood defences in the Thames Gateway.
It reveals there is a web of agences in the area sharing overlapping responsiblities for defending the city. It also warns the risk of flooding in London is being greatly increased as much of the DEVELOPMENT AREA IS ON FLOOD PLAINS.
The committee's chairman,Lewisham councillor,said: "We are extremely concerned about development plans for EAST LONDON and the building of THOUSANDS of NEW HOMES in THAMES GATEWAY."
" These plans are simply not taking flood risk issues seriously enough."
He also raised concerns about the long-term life of the Thames Barrier - a key issue for Lewisham and Greenwich.
But the Environment Agency says the city's defences will benefit from £300m pounds investment over the next 15 years. Thames Estuary programme executive for the Environment Agence said: " The disastrous impact of Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans reminds us all the consequences of complacency can be tragic."
" BUT LONDON CAN BE REASSURED THEIR CITY FLOOD DEFENCES ARE IN GOOD SHAPE AND THEY OFFER A HIGH LEVEL OF PROTECTION."
I HOPE SO, DON'T YOU. John JRP. LONDON SE9.
john

Flood prevention plans in full flow.

Flood prevention plans in full flow,as reported in our local News paper on the 28-9-2005 as shown. Land disappearing underwater sounds more like a disaster movie than the future of north Kent.
But new research says in an extreme flood event,as experienced in New Orleans,EXISTING DEFENCES COULD BE OVERWHELMED IN LONDON and the THAMES ESTUARY.
The Floodscape project is looking at consulting with residents to develop natural areas to control flood risk. The research is based around the idea of the "1,000 year flood"-- an extreme rise in water levels which pose the greatest threat to the Thames Estuary.
Floodscape co-ordinator says in theory this potentially catastrophic event could hit at any time. But now his project is looking at using the KENT MARSHES as a place where excess water can be dumped to save residential areas.
In the UK a total of £700,000 will be spent by the EU-FUNDED project on three pilot schemes looking at landscape change and flood risk including the north Kent marshes in Medway,to be completed by the end of next year. Suggestions for ways to use natural flood defences will feed into the Thames Estuary 2100 project,which is developing an Estuary flood risk management strategy for the next 100 years.
"Floodscape is providing Thames Estuary 2100 with tools to engage communities and decision makers in planning for and investigating acceptable measure to manage flood risk."
Different option were discussed with people from the north Kent community who were shown the consequences of making various changes to the flood defence system using computer models.
"The acceptability of each measure is determind by environmental impact,benefit and community opinions."
One measure,controlled inundation,would mean lowering or maintaining the height of existing defences so excess water would flood predetermined areas and not properties.
This could even lead to new natural habitats being created for wildlife.
Another option considered in the consultation is managed realignment,which involves creating holes in or removing existing defences.
Homes woul be protected by land gradient or new defences,while the area in-between may be inundated by the twice-daily tide and extreme floods.
The RSPB was one of the STAKEHOLDERS involved in the FLOODSCAPE CONSULTATION.
RSPB conservation officer for the area says planning for the future is essential to protect the area.She said: "THERE IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE PROTECTION FOR TOWNS. "MOVING GRAVESEND OR LONDON IS NOT AN OPTION."
In 1928: The tide in LONDON rose nearly 30cm higher than previous records and 14 people drowned in westminster when the river Thames overflowed.
In 1953: over 300 people lost their lives and 24,000 houses were flooded as defences in Kent were breached due to freak waves and a swelling tide along the coast.
In 2005: 4.5cm of torrential rain fell in under an hour,badly affecting Dartford,with manhole covers forced off and roads closing.
I BELIEVE THE WRITING IS ALREADY ON THE WALL FOR US,EVEN AS I WRITE THIS MESSAGE THE RAIN IS COMING DOWN AS IF SOME ONE HAS JUST PULLED THE PLUG OUT OVER MY HOUSE AND OTHERS,FLOODING THE ROAD OUTSIDE IT TOO. I HOPE IT STOPS SOON,DON'T YOU. 12pm. JOHN JRP.
john

Thoughts on water defences heard at meeting.

Residents vote to keep flood walls,as reported in our local News paper on the 19-10-2005 as shown. People living near NORTH KENT MARSHES have voted for no change in the way flooding is managed in the area.
A 15-month-long concultation has discovered residents and groups favour retaining the current method of having flood defences between the marshes and the Thames Estuary.
It had been suggested by consultation organiser FLOODSCAPE the defences be moved back to allow the area to flood-creating salt marshes and mud flats.
Although residents said they would consider letting small areas flood to increase saltmarsh to add to the ecological value of the area they would rather keep the defences in place.
And in some cases they wanted the defences built higher to stop future flooding in ST MARY'S MARSHES,NORTH of STROOD.
The project also covered an area from WENNINGTON MARSHES, SOUTH of RAINHAM,to the AVELEY MARSHES near PURFLEET.
FLOODSCAPE,which is an EU-FUNDED pilot action,will now give the residents,feedback to the Thames Estuary 2100 project,which is planning to protect the 1.25m people at risk from flooding in this area. It will present it's plans to the Government.
More than 100 people heard about the future of the marshes at the meeting last week.
A Dickens Country Protection Society committee member said: The ENVIRONMENTAL GROUP OBVIOUSLY HAS A VESTED INTEREST IN THE AREA.
She said: "The consensus of the group was it should remain as it is."
A retired lady of 65 said: She attended the meeting because she wanted to know what was going on in the marshes.
She also said: "We don't want to see them flooded,we want to see it how it is now.
Floodscape project manager said:"THIS IS ONE PIECE OF THE JIGSAW."
"THE PROJECT IS MORE ABOUT EXPLORING RATHER THAN GETTING TO THE STAGE WHERE SOMETHING IS CHOSEN." I HOPE IT STOPS RAINING SOON,DON'T YOU. JOHN JRP.
john

Too late for objections.

Too late for objections,as reported in our local News paper on the 20-10-2005 as shown. ENVIRONMENTALISTS have urged council chiefs to put the brakes on a huge housing development for fear of its impact.
KENT GREEN PARTY insists Dartford council has nothing to lose by delaying development at EASTERN QUARRY in SWANCOMBE to ensure facilities for the occupants of the thousands of proposed new homes materialise.
A number of concerns have been raised by the political party in a report into the impact of the development,which is the biggest in the THAMES GATEWAY.
EASTERN QUARRY was granted outline approval in July after months of negotiation.
"During this process a number of comments were received from organisations but not from the KENT GREEN PARTY."
A spokesman for Dartford council said: "WE WELCOME ANY COMMENTS,BUT THEY NEED TO BE TIMELY TO BE INCLUDED IN THE PLANNING PROCESS." I HOPE THEY INCLUDE THE RISK OF FLOODING,DON'T YOU. John JRP.
john

Paving front gardens risk of flooding.

Paving front gardens increases the risk of flooding in the capital,as reported in our local News paper November issue 2005,as shown.
LONDONERS who pave front gardens so they can park cars are being urged to use 'green' methods to help reduce the risk of flooding.
A LONDON ASSEMBLY REPORT shows homeowners across the capital have paved over an area equivalent to 22 Hyde Parks to give them somewhere to put their vehicles. Now the MAYOR of London has called for people to think about using materials that allow water to drain into the earth.
The growing tendency to cover front gardens means rainwater has no way of naturally seeping into the ground.
Instead,it is channelled into the drainage system,which is already under pressure,increasing the risk of flooding during heavy rain,
ACCORDING TO THE LONDON ASSEMBLY REPORT,TWO THIRDS OF THE CAPITAL'S FRONT GARDENS ARE ALREADY PARTIALLY COVERED BY PAVING,BRICKS,CONCRETE OR GRAVEL.
WITH THIS IN MIND, I HOPE IT STOPS RAINING SOON, DON'T YOU. John. JRP.
john

DON'T GET YOUR FEET WET.

Question Don't get your feet wet as reported in my local KB news paper as shown for December 2005. As global warming begins to effect our climate causing sea levels to rise and rivers to burst their banks more readily,is your business prepared to cope with the possibility of flooding? The consequences of a flood can be devastating with astronomical financial losses as well as loss of livelihoods and high levels of trouble and stress.
Ask yourself the following questions:
* Do you know if you are situated in an area at risk of flooding?
* Do you know if and how you can receive flood warnings?
* Do you know how your business would respond to a flood?
* Are your staff trained on flood procedures?
* Do you have the relevent insurance to make sure you are covered in the event of a flood?
If you think you may be at risk and you answered no,to any of these questions,it is essential to implement a flood action plan to ensure the safety of staff and to minimise any financial loss.
For more information about how you can protect your business from the possibility of a flood,call the Environment Agency on 08708 506506.
May I wish every one a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2006,and I hope you all live long and happy too. John. JRP.
Sarah D

I'm just about to start a flood plan for our Parish Council, required by the County. Our village itself doesn't flood as it sits up on its own wee hill, but we regularly get floods around it.
Becoming a very important issue, relevant to those whose homes do not flood as well.
john

Just about to start flood plans.

Idea Hi Sarah D,I don't know if it's raining very heavy where you are,but I've just looked outside my window and I can see the rain water is flowing down our road because it can't drain away because of the leaves blocking the drains,even though our council road sweepers swept our road yesterday. Which must be going on all over the country at this time of the year,which is another good reason for building all our houses higher,as if we all lived on our own we hill. Please put my idea forward as I know it could help to save lives if used. Thank you, I hope you have a merry christmas and a Happy New Year,and may you live long and happy too. John.JRP.
Sarah D

A major problem in our part of the country/county is the failure of the farmers/their contractors/whoever to clear the ditches of the "trimmings" after they have decimated the hedges by flailing. I twasn't done for the past two years, and caused quite bad problems on the roads - the water obviously ahd nowhere to run into. They did them this year a few weeks ago (you can see the piles of muck and branches along the verges, waiting to be cleared - at least Ihope they will clear them , or it's back to square one), and so far it has made quite a difference on the parts of the road which were flooding regularly at this time of year. The ditches in the fields are not now cleared out as often or regularly as they used to, and this causes problems too. I agree about not building on flood plains - shouldn't it be completely obvious what is going to happen?
john

If water is not controled,it will claim the land which is?

Idea Question Hi Sarah D again,what is obviously going to happen on flood plains,is ignored because there are millions of pounds involved in one way or another. Yes peoples lives are a problem to the builders,but they would say we are going to die at some time any way. So when people do decide to live on a floodplain they must know this,or they are so desperate to have a place to live in,they will take a chance on whether they live or die living in a high risk of flooding area,or they are not told, if they had a long period of rain their lives will be at risk from flooding because their house is built on a floodplain.
If they wanted me to design buildings on a floodplain I'm sure I could do it just by simply building nearly everything up higher from the ground in some way to fit in with the normal way we live now.
* My roads would be your ditches,
* My walkways would be your banks
* My trees would be my houses
* My lower part would be my roots,foundations,the tree trunk would be my lower walls,and the top part where the branches are would be where you live,of course wide enough not to be blown down in strong high winds,and they would have easy ways to get to,all built up higher so any water would find it's own level,designed to be as low as possible to save loss of life,and to keep any damage to the minimum.
I hope you find others to join you in keeping the rain of your roads to help stop any flooding,good luck,Power to the people who are doing their bit to help others. John JRP.
john

Flood defences are "inadequate".

Idea A SCRUTINY group has claimed Bexley's flood defences are inadequate,as reported in our local BE news paper dated the 9-2-2006.
The council's environment committee made its findings while investigating the aftermath of a giant storm last September 2005 which hit more than 100 homes and businesses in the borough.
The report,which was presented to council chiefs,recommends that extra money should be pumped into flood defence.
The document reads: "As a result of the intense rainfall,the capacity of the drainage systems at a number of locations was exceeded."
Reports of extreme flooding came in from more than 70 locations in the borough on the night of 10 September 2005.
A monitor reading,taken at Hall Place the morning after the storm,indicated it was the strongest for 90 years.
The worst hit areas were Bexley Village and Belvedere,where more than 50 homes were flooded,but Sidcup and Bexleyheath were also effected too.
A particular concern was the River Cray,which was unable in some areas to cope with the sudden downfall.
The report continues: "Some residents of properties alongside the river reported water levels rising to the thresholds of back doors and garden funiture and boats being washed away."
Roads were flooded in Sidcup,Foots Cray,Bexley,blackfen,welling,East Wickham,belvedere,Eirth,Bexleyheath,Barnhurst,and Crayford,many drivers had to abandon their cars.
In addition,the Thames Road was floode beneath the railway bridge,and the busy A2 had to be closed for several hours.
A particularly bad case was Wrothham Road,Welling,where a foul sewer became blocked and overflowed.
North Kent and Surry were also hit. Council officers sent out questionaires asking residents if they were affected,and have since met officials from Thames Water to discuss improvements to the borough's drainage systems.
A council spokesman said: "Thames Water has confirmed that its wet weather procedure in Bexley will be reviewed. We have also met representatives from the Environment Agency to discuss their role and their views given the severity of this storm.
"They confirmed that they do have some local resources available for clearing rivers and outlets and that it may be possible to use these in the future should a similar event occur."
Council officials have also pledged to pump £180,000 into their Cabinet Budget Statergy.
A spokesman for Thames Water said: "The implementation of our revised procedures are planned to take place before the onset of the late summer storms period.
I hope we don't have any heavy rainfall or THAMES WATER won't be ready,will they,going by what I've just reported to you. John JRP.
john

GARDENS LAST LINE OF FLOOD DEFENCE.

Idea The Environment Agency has come up with a pioneering answer to flood defence problems along the RIVER QUAGGY - using people's gardens which back onto the river as a flood plain,as reported in our local free news paper dated the 1-3-2006.
This is not a raw deal for the 40 residents whose back gardens are being transformed.
In fact it is offering increased flood protection to these homes and to the surrounding borough.
The RIVER QUAGGY in SE london is a major tributary of the RIVER RAVENSBORNE and while it poses a 1.5 per cent risk of flooding every year,to many it goes unnoticed.
As Lewisham has developed over the decades,big chunks of the QUAGGY have been built over,and now run underground.
Another aim of the final part of the three-year scheme is to "open out" the river,clean it up and encourage more wildlife.
The QUAGGY is essentially a concrete bath tub and its sidings have become very dilapidated. The Environment Agency is upgrading and restoring the 10-15ft walls along the tributary. A team of about 50 workers are also removing enough Japanese Knotweed to fill 160 lorries.
The 40 back gardens being used as flood plains means the residents are getting raised patio areas,with a choice of design,so the end of the garden which backs onto the river can be flooded in times of high rainfall.
Another key element of this work is encouraging the river to meander,reducing its flow and making it look more appealing. This will be achieved by implementing granite block groynes.
The team behind the operation is keen to get the community involved,Workers travel up and down the stretch of the river on bikes,as it is both environmentally friendly and a quick way of getting around. Every one in the community has hailed the environmental improvements as "BRILLIANT".
I do hope we don't have any heavy rainfall in the next 3 years before its finished as "INTENSE RAINFALL IS THE BIGGEST RISK IN SOUTH EAST LONDON." May we all live long and happy. John. JRP.
john

RAIN.

Question WE are now having a lot of rainfall in the South East,I hope we are prepared for it. John. JRP.
tahir

Re: RAIN.

john wrote:
WE are now having a lot of rainfall in the South East


Are we?
Jonnyboy

I thought you were having a lot of hospipe bans in the south east.
nettie

Yep I think it kicks in during the next couple of weeks. A couple of days rain isn't going to make much difference I'm afraid.
cab

Depends where you are in the South East. Here in Cambs we've had some rain in the last few days.

Often the biggest flood risk on flood plains happens just after a dry spell; imprevious concrete all over the flood plains and hard baked ground above it means that the peak storm flow in a storm coming out of a dry spell can be monstrous.
tahir

We've had rain, but not much.
Jonnyboy

cab wrote:
Depends where you are in the South East. Here in Cambs we've had some rain in the last few days.

Often the biggest flood risk on flood plains happens just after a dry spell; imprevious concrete all over the flood plains and hard baked ground above it means that the peak storm flow in a storm coming out of a dry spell can be monstrous.


.....yet short lived I assume?
cab

Jonnyboy wrote:

.....yet short lived I assume?


Indeed. Classic hydrology, really; you get an earlier, higher peak storm flow. If there's more permeable ground then you get a later, lower peak (with a slower increase and a slower decline in peak flow).
Jonnyboy

cab wrote:
Jonnyboy wrote:

.....yet short lived I assume?


Indeed. Classic hydrology, really; you get an earlier, higher peak storm flow. If there's more permeable ground then you get a later, lower peak (with a slower increase and a slower decline in peak flow).


Yep, My stream can rise and fall by a good couple of feet within the space of a day.

Noisy and scary looking, but in practice the risk is minimal
cab

Jonnyboy wrote:

Yep, My stream can rise and fall by a good couple of feet within the space of a day.

Noisy and scary looking, but in practice the risk is minimal


Now imagine what would happen if all the ground around it were concreted over, and the ground around that were baked hard in a dry summer (unlikely in Northern Ireland, I know).

And then imagine all the other streams and tributaries of a larger river being in the same condition... And then think of the poor saps who live down river.

The way we've managed development on and near riverbanks in the UK has been rather shortsighted, in my opinion.
tahir

cab wrote:
The way we've managed development on and near riverbanks in the UK has been rather shortsighted, in my opinion.


Incredibly stupid in my opinion, but it's still the same now apart from some notable exceptions (Blackwater Estuary)
Jonnyboy

cab wrote:
Jonnyboy wrote:

Yep, My stream can rise and fall by a good couple of feet within the space of a day.

Noisy and scary looking, but in practice the risk is minimal


Now imagine what would happen if all the ground around it were concreted over, and the ground around that were baked hard in a dry summer (unlikely in Northern Ireland, I know).

And then imagine all the other streams and tributaries of a larger river being in the same condition... And then think of the poor saps who live down river.

The way we've managed development on and near riverbanks in the UK has been rather shortsighted, in my opinion.


Dunno, I'm thinking that a localised heavy downpour would cause a large runoff and some fierce flows for a while it should be within the capacity of the water network. Now, a sustained period of heavy rain after a sustained dry spell, well that's something to worry about, especially as global warming is expected to produce more extreme contrasts in weather.

Agree on the latter, but I wonder if it was possible to project the potential impact of global warming into a planning application that went through 10 or even 5 years ago?
cab

Jonnyboy wrote:

Dunno, I'm thinking that a localised heavy downpour would cause a large runoff and some fierce flows for a while it should be within the capacity of the water network. Now, a sustained period of heavy rain after a sustained dry spell, well that's something to worry about, especially as global warming is expected to produce more extreme contrasts in weather.

Agree on the latter, but I wonder if it was possible to project the potential impact of global warming into a planning application that went through 10 or even 5 years ago?


A water network has a capacity based on how much water it typically has to deal with. That governs how deep and wide the channel that the rivers in are likely to be, it governs how the flood plain looks, etc. Obviously any river can flood, and what we're dealing with is how often a river will flood. When we increase the rate at which water enters the river, flooding becomes more of a problem. Because you've made water hit the river faster, and you haven't increased capacity, then the likelyhood of flooding is greater. You might still have capacity such that there aren't many floods, depending on the river, but the chance is still greater.

Now when you start increasing the severity of storms (dumping more water in over a short time; globla warming is a horrible term, its more the energy in the storm thats the issue here) then you compound the problem. How that's been modelled I don't know.
john

Idea Question Hi All,it's a fact that like most things in life there's always a good or a bad side to things,we need the rain to fill our reservoir,it just puzzles me to think why we can't simply run a hose (PIPE) from where they have more than enough rainfall to where we need it in the South East for example. Scotland could supply us and the Government could pay them for it even though the rain water it's self is free.
Who would pay for the hose (PIPE) the water companies who charge us,which means at the end of the day we will,but at least we will be ok compared to other countries,yet I'm sure they could do the same thing if we lead the way,or is this another idea of mine that's to far out side the box way of thinking. Please don't say it can't be done if we can go to the moon we can run a hose (PIPE) it will just be a very long one Laughing Laughing .John.JRP.
Jonnyboy

I think it's more of a case of the collection infrastructure, there may be plenty of rain but you would need to build many more reservoirs to collect and store the rainfall.

Obviously that's a political minefield, flooding scotland to support the south of emgland. Wink

A similar thing has happened several times in Wales to provide water in Birmingham & Liverpool, with bitter protests & forced relocations. It still causes deep annoyance to this day.
john

Jonnyboy wrote:
I think it's more of a case of the collection infrastructure, there may be plenty of rain but you would need to build many more reservoirs to collect and store the rainfall.

Obviously that's a political minefield, flooding scotland to support the south of emgland. Wink

A similar thing has happened several times in Wales to provide water in Birmingham & Liverpool, with bitter protests & forced relocations. It still causes deep annoyance to this day.



Idea Hi Jonnyboy,whilst I did mention the money side of things and how I would help to solve our problem,of course all what you have said will help,but whilst you may have presumed I ment over land,my way would be around our cost line under our sea water,like we have laid telephone cables from one country to another,like my father help to do from a ship years ago.
I know we could run a flexable pipe like a rubber hose from the South East to say Scotland,done by sticking it into a lake or lock or a reservoir and pump it through a outlet system into where it's needed,cutting out a lot of the problems which you have mentioned.
A simple concept,you put a hose end in some water in say Scotland and you put the other end of the hose in a reservoir in the South East of England,who would pay for it we will in some way,but doing it my way we would save millions of us paying more for our water in the future.
I now predict in the future my idea will be used as the simplest way to solve a problem in the cheapest way.
The worst thing which could happen is you could get some salt water leaking into the pipe which I'm sure could be sorted out in a simple way too,like most things. Good night. John. JRP.
Blue Sky

The trouble is John, that governments don't tend to favour using the simplist and cheapest ways to solve problems Crying or Very sad
Tinks

A bit sideways to the topic, but flood plain related........

I live 2 mins walk from the Thames and the Jubilee floos relief river. This area has been known to flood 400 metres over the banks of the Thames and I have seen people canoeing along the roads! When the Jubilee was built we were taken off flood notice, but are now back on (dunno why). Anyway, all the time this place ha been a flood plane and people have had trouble getting v. small extensions built EXCEPT bl**dy Michael Shanly (scurge of the home counties) who manages to throw naff housing up on every available inch including the riverbank........I think the flood plain only exists for planning departments in the absence of brown envelopes stuffed full of "donations"..........
john

FLASH FLOODS?

Idea Question DESERT TURNS TO ' A SEA' AS FlASH FLOODS KILL 150,as reported in our local news paper.

FLASH FLOODS in the Indian state of Rajasthan have turned huge swathes of desert into "A SEA" killing more than 150 people.
Thousands more are perched on sand dunes waiting for the water to recede. METEOROLOGISTS described the floods in the THAR DESERT along India's western border with Pakistan as a " ONCE-IN-200-YEAR EVENT". The deluge was almost FOUR TIMES THE AVERAGE ANNUAL RAINFALL for the region and it FELL IN ONLY FOUR DAYS.
In the worst affected areas, between the towns of Barmer and Jaisalmer,WATER LEVELS HAVE REACHED 25-30ft,DOWNING UP TO 100,000 HEAD OF LIVESTOCK. The armed forces have mounted a HUGE RELIEF WORK EFFORT, DROPPING 76,000 FOOD PARCELS BY HELICOPTER across LAND WHICH WERE THE FOCUS OF ENTENCE DROUGH RELIEF WORK TWO WEEKS AGO.
Part of the NETWORK OF MUD DAMS,designed to hold precious rain for the dry season,HAVE BEEN WASHED AWAY,raising fears that the excessive rain might bring further DROUGHT PROBLEMS. LAST YEAR Barmer had 102mm (4in) of rain. LAST WEEK SOME 577mm (22.7in) fell in FIVE DAYS. THE COST OF DAMAGE IS ESTIMATED AT MORE THAN £220 million.
MANY RESIDENTS WERE SLOW TO REACT TO EVACUATION WARNINGS, a farmer said "WE USED TO DIE FOR WATER;WE HOPED FOR FLOODS. So we didn't take the WARNING SERIOUSLY because of that."
(ME)
Could this happen to places where we have built on flood plains,are we taking the weather warning seriously "ONCE-IN-200-YEARS it happened in India,in a place where having a drought situation is a normal problem. We are a island surrounded by water,yet we are having a drought situation in the South East,is this a sign that we too could have flash floods of 22-7in of rain in the future,I hope not.
May you and yours live long and happy. John.J.R.P.
john

TIDES AT THEIR HIGHEST LEVEL FOR 20 YEARS?

Idea Question Hi ALL,the point I was tring to make is building on flood plains put lives at risk,if you don't do things right from the start.
Plus the fact tides are at their highest level for 20 years,as I read in my local news paper dated the 7-9-2006.
NORTH KENT is bracing itself for UNUSUALLY HIGH SPRING TIDES.
The Environment Agency issued A WARNING LAST WEEK that tides WHICH AFFECTS THE THAMES could reach their highest levels for 20 years,and up to 4 cm HIGHER THAN USUAL.
Tide heights are governed by the gravitational PULL OF THE SUN AND THE MOON which vary throughout the year,and between years.
Spring tides are higher than normal and occur twice a month. IN THIS CASE these high tides will happen at about the same time as the SEPTEMBER EQUINOX,when the SUN CROSSES THE EQUATOR and its GRAVITATIONAL PULL is AT ITS GREATEST.
A spokesman for the ENVIRONMENT AGENCY said: "The high tides should pass with no consequences. But at this stage,WE CAN'T SAY THERE WILL DEFINITELY BE NO FLOODING.
"If THE WORST HAPPENS,the Environment Agency services will INITIATE TRIED AND TESTED FLOOD MANAGEMENT PROCEDURES.
"This includes PREDICTING any FLOODING and WARNING PEOPLE IN ADVANCE WHERE WE CAN,operating flood defences and IF NECESSARY EVACUATING PEOPLE from AREAS OF GREATEST RISK as a PRECAUTION."
The Environment Agency PLANS TO PROVIDE UP TO 12 HOURS ADVANCE WARNING OF POTENTIAL FLOODING,but in EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES there could be just TWO HOURS WARNING.
IF YOU LIVE IN A FLOOD RISK AREA,CHECK the Environment Agency's website www.environment-agency.gov.uk or call Floodline on 0845 988 1188.
(ME)
I hope its not a case of all talk,and no doing when there are so many people living on flood plains, when they could be living some where else.
May every one live long and happy. John. J.R.P.
john

FLOODING - FOR 35 YEARS?

Idea Question Confused Flooding - for 35 years as reported in our local news paper dated the 21-9-2006.
A PROBLEM of repeated flooding in gardens has remained UNSOLVED FOR MORE THAN 35 YEARS,as rainwater seeps into 2 peoples back garden during heavy downpours and then leaks into 2 more peoples garden next door,as much as a quarter of one 80ft long garden gets flooded under inches of water,with litter and rubbish floating in. BUT,councllors heard at a joint transportation board,the problem had remained unsolved since the houses were built in 1969. A Cllr told the meeting: "What shocks me is that this has been going on since before I was born,in 1972. "It's the sort of thing you hear about in theTHIRD WORLD countries,not in 21st Century DARTFORD."
A REPORT to councillors said that AFTER FOUR HOMES WERE BUILT,ONE OF THEM was REGULARLY FLOODED during prolonged and HEAVY RAINFALL.
THE SOAKAWAY WAS INEFFECTIVE,and an attempt to solve the problem with an OVERFLOW PIPE WAS INEFFECTUAL. During 1971 NO FURTHER DRAINAGE IMPROVEMENTS WERE CARRIED OUT. ONE COUPLE put up with the problem since they moved into their house in 1975, and another couple since they moved in during 1999. One couple said : "WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE FLOODING when we moved in. NOW, we find that this has been going on for so long it seems RIDICULOUSE."
The meeting heard that the COST of SOLVING the PROBLEM HAS RISEN TO £40,000 and there was NOT ENOUGHT MONEY in KENT County Council's BUDGET to deal with the issue THIS YEAR. HIGHWAY SERVICES SAID,in other FLOOD-PRONE LOCATIONS,floodwater flowed into people's HOMES.which made those SITUATIONS A PRIORITY. THE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN SAID: "IT IS QUITE APPALLING that this MATTER HAS TAKEN SO LONG. "I AM SORRY that WE CAN'T RESOLVE IT AT THIS MEETING.
(ME)
With all the so called experts in flood management to help solve this problem around us,and being paid to protect us, what chance have we got if they can't solve this one.
May we all live long and happy. John.J.R.P.
john

Happy Christmas & New Year 2007.

Idea Hi everyone,may I take this opportunity to wish you all a very Happy Christmas,and a very Happy New Year 2007 too. Very Happy Laughing
I will look forward to shareing some more ideas with you in the future.
May you and yours live long and happy. John. J.R.P.
john

Idea Question Very Happy Embarassed Hi ALL,I've just noticed that I have not been telling you that I have a website,which I'm now going to put right it's, www.recycling.moonfruit.com designed to help save lives.
Once again may I wish you and yours a Happy New Year 2007. John. J.R.P.
john

Idea Sad Hi ALL, hear comes the rain and what ever else, I do hope for those who suffer from flooding are ready for it,as I think we are going to get plenty of rain in the near future,plus most of all of the reservoirs are already full,and the water has got to go somewhere,so I say stand by your beds,because you might not be the only one who will need help if there is flooding going on all over the place in the UK. Sad May you and yours live long and happy . John. J.R.P.
john

Idea Question Hundreds Flee Flood Chaos, as reported in a news paper dated the 17-6-2007.
HUNDREDs were forced from their homes by floods as Britain was hit by further downpours.
In South Yorkshire, where more than a month's worth of rain fell in just 24 hours, one man suffered a suspected heart attack as firefighter in boats plucked him from is flooded home.
The 69-year-old was one of around 30 rescued in the Dartfield area of Barnsley after the River Dearne burst its banks. Nearly 30 flood warnings are currently in place and one of them, relating to the River Don in Sheffield, is classified as severe.
The Environment Agency said: GENERALLY the SITUATION has STABILISED BUT we are warning people to REMAIN VIGILANT, we are not out of the woods yet.
MeteoGroup UK said more rain was on the way particularly in East Anglis, Derbyshire, Yorkshire and the North-East.
(ME)
Going by the weather forcast, the South East is going to get a lot of rain soon too, I hope we are ready for it, for example, the Councils looking after their local Communities by atleast clearing all the drain holes before it arrives would help. May we all live long and happy. John. J.R.P.
Vanessa

Just found this thread, which makes very interesting reading.

Trouble is, "we" as in "man" have been building on flood plains for thousands of years. Many of the main cities in the world are close to rivers, and built on flood plains. Just a quick think around the UK and France, and I can name dozens, most of which have long histories.

In ancient times, the rivers were essential for transportation of food in, and of other goods out. They were needed for drinking water, and for washing water.

Now, "we" still build on flood plains. Why? Because it is so much cheaper to build on flat land than on hillsides. Even a slight slope increases the cost of the build tremendously.

Doesn't make it right, or sensible, but does explain why.
john

Idea Question Smile Hi Vanessa, we are all being told the ice caps are melting and our water levels are rising every day, but we still carry on building our houses in the old way, because of the money involved. Plus the fact that no one lives for ever, which is why I believe we still do it this way, like you said.
I can't see any problem with having a garage, or a lower area of a house built with the chance of flooding in mind, now, what more proof do we need with some of the flooding we have had in the UK, and in the rest of the world.
All I'm asking for is, for all buildings to be built as if they were all being built on flood plains, if it helps to save just one life, then It's got to be worth it I say, plus the fact the house insurance should be cheaper too, because there could be less chances of claiming for so much.
(ME)
I would design them all with a garage area, plus a inhouse shed area built under the stairs leading up to the first floor, with a walk way in-between them with inner doors too. One large space under any building, with steps or a lift leading up, would help to solve the problem, if we have to build on floodplains because the land is flatter, and cheaper to do so.
May we all live long and happy in a house that was designed with the chance of flooding in mind, so we can. John J.R.P. Smile
john

Idea Question Sad Hi ALL,another flood warning as reported in a news paper dated the 15-7-2007.
FLOOD THREAT HOMES FACING INSURANCE BAN.
HOMES along the Thames Estuary could be put ON A FLOODING BLACKLIST by insurance companies. The stark warning from the ASSOCIATION OF BRITISH INSURERS could see thousands of pounds wiped off the value of HOMES and making them EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO SELL.
It could also scupper the proposed plans to build thousands of NEW HOMES ALONG the NORTH KENT CORRIDOR. The alarm comes after insurance companies started to count the cost of the flood damage in northern ENGLAND. As they count the cost in damage, insurers have developed A 'RISK MAP' OF THE UK which includes an AREA stretching from THANET, through SWALE and MEDWAY to GRAVESEND.
It takes into account RISING COASTAL WATER LEVELS, the INCREASE in RAINFALL LEVELS in recent months and THE STATE OF FLOOD DEFENCES recently CRITICISED BY the NATIONAL AUDIT OFFICE. A spokesman for the ASSOCIATION SAID: "Our modle takes into account THE CONDITIONS OF FLOOD DEFENCES. CLEARLY if they ARE FALLING TO BITS THEY ARE NOT GOING TO DO MUCH GOOD."
(ME)
We all should know that water finds it's own level, if we know that when we build on flood plains or near a steam or a river, why do we keep on building them still thinking there would be no chance of flooding. In my book if someone calls themselves a expert on flooding, then all the problems of flooding should have been sorted out a long time ago, taking into account water will always find it's own level.
May we all live long and happy without the fear of flooding because of the cost involved in doing so. John. J.R.P.
Nick

Course, it's illegal to refuse to insure a property as long as it's previously had continuous insurance on the basis of flood risk.
Shane

Presumably that doesn't apply to the new houses that our ever-enthusiastic friend is talking about, though?
Nick

If it's had insurance, it's OK.

Interesting to see how you'd get a mortgage on a house that couldn't be insured (and therefore, why would a developer build them?)
Green Man

I have a friend who lives mortgage free because his house is known to flood a couple of times of year due to Spring tides. He has cleverly adapted his living accommodation to the upper and attic floors and keeps the ground floor as kitchen and sitting area with tiled floors, non upholstered furniture and no ground level electrics or appliances. His house has flooded like this for the last couple of hundred years with no signs of rot (Salty estuary). I think more houses in flood areas could be adapted to live like that, especially the ones that flood every couple of years.
john

Idea Question Smile Hi Cho-Ku-ri, nower days some people have more than one vehicle per house, so having room under the living accommodation would help to keep them off the roads, plus being kept safer and still leaving the space for other vehicles to park up off the road in front too. Having a garden inner shed under the stairs area also would not make the garage smaller by design. Of course some people will still use the garage or shed to put things of value in, but if they know they could not make a claim for them if the house was flooded, that would be the chance they would have to take, whether they do or not.
I hope the water coming from the West does not meet the water coming in from the South at Greenwich, as we will be in big trouble here, and in London, just like they are now in the West of the country all because water is finding its own level.
May you and yours and what you grow live long and happy. John. J.R.P. Smile
Vanessa

Nick Howe wrote:
Course, it's illegal to refuse to insure a property as long as it's previously had continuous insurance on the basis of flood risk.


It's specifically flood damage that these poor folk cannot get insurance against. Fire, theft etc, not a problem, but no insurance against a flood.
Green Man

Why not build all new houses on stilts or above garages on areas that are known to flood. Idea
Mrs Fiddlesticks

is there not a school of thought that says on the basis of the recent floods the existing flood plains map needs to be redrawn. Difficult to work out whether houses not previously deemed at risk now come within a river's outer (and extreme) flooding boundary.
john

Idea Question Sad Hi ALL, today is the 9-11-2007 ( 9-11 ) I do hope and pray that today is not the day we loose thousands of lives in the UK due to the forcast of wide spread flooding, caused by a tidal wave surge. John. J.R.P.
john

john wrote:
Idea Question Sad Hi ALL, today is the 9-11-2007 ( 9-11 ) I do hope and pray that today is not the day we loose thousands of lives in the UK due to the forcast of wide spread flooding, caused by a tidal wave surge. John. J.R.P.



Very Happy Hi All again, good news, as today I would like to think, by sharing my thoughts with all of you on the internet, I believe my prayers were answered by having NO lives lost in the UK, due to flooding, which could have happened if the water had got much higher. This time I believe we were ready, next time could be the real thing, so we must be ready for it againat at any time, here and in the rest of the world. May we all live long and happy. John.J.R.P.
john

Hi ALL, CAN YOU PLEASE TAKE NOTE, of a programme on next Monday the 3rd DECEMBER CHANNEL 4 TV ( DISPATCHES ) at 9pm, as it's all to do with being flooded in the UK, which I think we should all watch as it could help to save our lives in some way, as water levels raise. I know I want to know more, how about you, even though every one of us, good or bad is going to die at some time anyway. May you and yours and what you grow live long and happy, when I'm sorry to say dying is a fact of life.. John.J.R.P.
lettucewoman

john wrote:
Idea Question Sad Hi ALL, today is the 9-11-2007 ( 9-11 ) I do hope and pray that today is not the day we loose thousands of lives in the UK due to the forcast of wide spread flooding, caused by a tidal wave surge. John. J.R.P.


John this forecast was made by a man called piers corbyn whose methods of forecasting weather hve been discredited in the past - he tends to favour sensationalism over fact.

PLease visit uk weather world or the weather outlook to discover what other meteoroligists think of him - he is currently changing his forecast of a "superstorm" to hit the south between 23rd - 28th Nov to fit in with the actual weather prediction of a rather normal winter storm approaching from the north!
john

Idea Question Smile Hi ALL, I've found a webite showing some plans of elevated home designs, which I would like to see built on all our flood plains, to help save lives by law, now and in the future, which you might like to tell others about if they are involved in building homes in anyway on a flood plain, now and in the future, for example the Thames Gateway. It's www.allhouseplans.com/house-plans-charleston.html . Ofcourse we will build them to what we like to see in the UK. Plus I've found a website that's done some tests all about elevated homes, and those which are not, which comes up good on insurance, and value too in flood risk areas, which I think you should also like to know about if you are buying a house or building. It's Snoqualmie Reconneissance Study, I believe everyone who knowingly says it's ok to build on land that has a high risk of flooding, and they go a head and do it, and lives are lost, should be held accountable of premeditated murder, with no ifs or buts. Yes, if we need to build on the land then we must do so, but what I can't understand is why we choose to build on land that can be flooded easly in the first place, when say cows or sheep could graze's on it, leaving fields to build home on with less chances of major flooding, with every way possible for this not to happen built in by design to save the loss of any life. Which I hope Mondays TV channel4 programme is all about to do with flooding. May you and yours and what we grow live long and happy. John.J.R.P.
Nick

john wrote:
Idea Question Smile
I believe everyone who knowingly says it's ok to build on land that has a high risk of flooding, and they go a head and do it, and lives are lost, should be held accountable of premeditated murder, with no ifs or buts.



I'll have a pint of whatever John's on.
john

Question Hi ALL, what a crazy world we live in when Antony Barnett at Channel 4 TV has to tell us the way it is regarding FLOODING, and Baroness Young says she doing her best to sort things out. I say it all comes down to money being spent on something she or any one else won't get a return on in the way of profit, just like my New reuse of waste ideas to help save lives, and help to reduce some of our waste going to landfill sites in the UK, and in the rest of the world.
May you and yours and what you grow live long and happy. John.J.R.P.
Shane

That was the sort of program that really winds me up. Totally one-sided, and very sensationalist.

I didn't like the way he rubbished dams that are 100 years old, as if that makes them prone to immediate and catastrophic failure. Surely the counter argument is: "it's stood here for 100 years, hasn't leaked once and has just passed an independent inspection." To then attempt to stir up hard feeling by staging a mythical flood that wipes out a school full of children is just irresponsible journalism.

Declaring that there have been 40 safety incidents at damns in the last year, or whatever it was, was a deliberate attempt to mislead. In industry, every single incident is reportable, no matter how minor. Safety incident registers are primarily loaded with things like stubbed toes and twisted ankles, none of which tend to lead to dam failure. 40 safety incidents out of all the UK's dams is actually a pretty good statistic. If he'd said that there have been 40 safety incidents out of all those recorded that had been identified as having the potential to escalate into a failure scenario it would have meant something.

Simulating a doomsday scenario whereby every vulnerable power supply in the country gets knocked out simultaneously was also a bit sensationalist. Does he really think that if half of the country was under water (which it appeared was necessary to cause the degree of outage he was showing) that having no power would be the only concern?

Also resented him implying that people that design drain systems are retarded because historically they've only designed them based on current weather forecasts with no allowance made for future climate change. Honestly, what a ridiculous statement. Show me any drainage system anywhere in the world that is designed to cope with one month's rain in a day and I'll eat my hat.

By contrast, I thought that the EA lady conducted herself marvellously. She had to explain to this nitwit that publicly broadcasting the UK's most vulnerable utility stations was not clever, and she answered his other questions well. How much does he think it would cost to upgrade all of the UKs flood defences in one go? Hundreds of billions would be my estimate.

The one good point that was made is that continued building on flood plains is just daft. EA Lady is right in that we need to push the insurance industry, through regulation if necessary, to refuse insurance on new properties built on flood plains against EA advice. That's the only way to stop it, and it would have an immediate effect.

In case you hadn't noticed, the program got on my goat just a little bit Laughing
Behemoth

Shane wrote:
In case you hadn't noticed, the program got on my goat just a little bit Laughing


I employed predictive strategies to conclude that it would have the same effect on me.
john

Idea Question Smile FLOODs 'LIKE TERROR' as reported in a news paper dated the 18-12-2007.
FLOODING is as big a threat to Britain as terrorism or a deadly flu pandemic, an official inquiry warned. Ministers were urged to draw up a national emergency plans fillowing this summer's devastating floods in the UK. The report said NEW HOMES NEED TO BE BETTER DESIGNED TO COP WITH FLOODS - and rescue equipment like boats should be stockpiled. And families in flood risk areas were also urged to be better prepared.
They should have emergency flood kits, with a torch, radio, emergency numbers and important documents such as insurance forms. "We are trying to RAISE THE PRIORITY OF FLOODING, putting it on a level that is something similar to terrorism or pandemic flu." There were 87 recommendations that the Government said it would look into, as more than 350,000 people lost their water supply for nearly three weeks in this year's floods, which cost insurers £3billion. Warning systems and drainage systems had to be made better. "We need to improve our weather forecasting and our ways of modelling the ground." "What were people supposed to do? to help people who hadn't been flooded for over 40 years." Brits would be alarmed there was NO UK FLOOD PLANS - NO NATIONAL FLOOD EMERGENCY PLANS, NO CLEAR RESPONSIBILLITY FOR DEALING WITH URBAN FLOODS, and NO SYSTEMATIC STOCK PILLING OF EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT."

FLOOD FARCE.
SIr Michael Pitt's VERDICT, suggests whole communities were exposed to devastation by COMPLACENT GOVERNMENT AND CAVALIER BUILDERS.
MINISTERS WARNED US TO BE PREPARED FOR FREAK STORMS DUE TO GLOBAL WARMING. The only action they took was to IGNORED THEIR OWN ADVICE.

(ME)
If they want someone to design houses to build on flood plains, then they need look no further, because I think outside the box when it cames to trying to help solve a problem. I say WHY wait until tomorrow when you can sort it out today, simply done by building all new houses, for a start, having a garage under the first elevated floor.
May I wish you and yours a very HAPPY CHRISTMAS and a VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR 2008 too. John.J.R.P.
john

Hi ALL, here is the flood risk help line phone number as they say we are about to get some very heavy rainfall, it's 0845 9881188.
May you and yours and what you grow live long and happy. John.J.R.P.
john

Sad And they say there's more bad weather to come.
May you and yours and what you grow be ok. John.J.R.P.
john

john wrote:
Hi ALL, here is the flood risk help line phone number as they say we are about to get some very heavy rainfall, it's 0845 9881188.
May you and yours and what you grow live long and happy. John.J.R.P.


One year later and it's happerning again. John.J.R.P.
Shane

john wrote:
One year later and it's happerning again. John.J.R.P.

Yep - it's raining and John's back Wink
john

Idea Question Hi ALL, FLOODING COULD BE A RECURRING NIGHTMARE as reported in a News paper dated the 30-9-2008.
BRITAIN faces a growing number of DEVASTATING spring FLOODS followed by DROUGHTS climate experts warned.
EUROPE is WARMING FASTER than the world average, and this will RESULT in a WETTER NORTH and a DESERT-LIKE MEDITERRANEAN REGION, they said.
BRITAIN will SUFFER because our 'return period' - meteorological jargon for the time between EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS - is .getting shorter.
FLOODS THAT OCCURRED ONCE EVERY 100 YEARS COULD HAPPEN EVERY DECADE.
EXPERTS FROM all over EUROPE were brought together to STUDY computer models of the way WORLD CLIMATE is likely to go BASED ON RECENT EVENTS.
THE TEAMS - from the EUROPEAN ENVIRONMENT AGENCY, the WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATION and the EUROPEAN COMMISSION - concluded that although Britain will get more rain, it will come mostly in spring deluges. Unless we find ways of channelling and saving this water, it will be lost, to be followed by summer droughts, said a flood expert. He added 'FLOODS IN BRITAIN MAY INCREASE BY 40 PERCENT, OR EVEN MORE.'
The EXPERTS also WARNED that in EUROPE, FOUR MILLION PEOPLE and £2BILLION of ASSETS could be AT RISK OF FLOODING BY 2100,
WHY. BECAUSE TWO-THIRDS OF ALPINE GLACIERS HAVE VANISHED SINCE 1850, they said.

(me) Like I've suggested before. ( IF ) we change the way we build all our buildings to every one having a garage or car parking underneath, this will give us straight away at least 10ft or more before it ment maybe moving everything higher if they were built on a floodplain or not, I can't see any problems with raising the roofs like we do loft extensions on most homes built now to use roof space, for example what the Government could do is make all houses have roofs fitted with sola roof tiles like some houses are fitted with in America. These could supply electricity and along with sola panel could supply hot water too, plus you can add wind power, and wave power to this on a large scale, resulting in BRITAIN being SELF-SUFFICIENT.
I believe this would reduce this countries energy bill, helping to pay for it ( ALL ) over a period of time, of course with so much energy being produced we could then run our vehicles, our trains our trams and anything else which we need
EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT as usual MAKING MONEY TAKES TOP PRIORITY.
ALL I'M SAYING IS, THESE COULD BE PRODUCED AND DONE ON SHUCH A LARGE SCALE over a short period of time FOR EXAMPLE, BY SO MANY PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A JOB NOW, WHICH COULD HELP TO CHANGE THE WHOLE WAY WE LIVE OUR LIVES NOW AND IN THE FUTURE, DONE IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS, which other countries might not have thouht of doing because they are so poor or so rich to do anything about it, but we could JUST LIKE NUTURE, IT WILL HAVE TO COPE WITH OUR CLIMATE CHANGE TO in many different ways in order to suvive in EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS, that we have no control over.
May you and yours and what you grow live long and happy. John.J.R.P.
john

Idea Question Sad Hi ALL, MILLIONS 'IN DENIAL' OVER RISK OF MORE FLOODING as reported in a News paper dated the 30-11-2008.
BRITAIN is in a " state of denial" about the risk of MASSIVE FLOODS ACROSS THE COUNTRY and is doing almost nothing to protect people from DANGER.
FIVE MILLION now LIVE in areas AT RISK of being swamped and most of them ARE AWARE of the DANGERS, according to official estimates.
BUT the Government's chief adviser on 2007 FLOODS, Sir Michael Pitt, said: that ANOTHER 3.5 MILLION PEOPLE WERE NEAR RESERVOIRS and IN DANGER of SERIOUS FLOODS, BUT they HAD NO IDEA.
COUNCILS have FAILED TO WARN many of them and others have NOT BOTHERED TO FIND OUT the potential RISK.
Sir Michael said he was "SHOCKED" to find that most of the HOMES in HULL, GLOUESTERSHIRE and OXFORDSHIRE that were badly FLOODED LAST YEAR had NOT been fitted with ANY PROTECTION even though they were likely to be FLOODED AGAIN.
He said: "People are in denial about flooding - they don't want to admit they are at RISK."
HOUSEHOLDERS were often RELUCTANT TO TAKE FLOOD PREVENTION MEASURES because of the FEAR they might detract from the value of their PROPERTY and so when REPAIRING houses AFTER FLOODING they "FOOLISHLY" FAILED to TAKE PRECAUTIONS against a REPEAT EXPERIENCE.

(Me)
As I now understand it, all building are now built with the chance of flooding in mind, so someone might have listened to my crys for change. to help save lives in the UK. Only time will tell, in the meantime. May I be one of the first to wish you and yours a VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS and NEW YEAR 2009. John.J.R.P. Smile
James

I’m not aware of the details of the Gloucester flooding, but I’d like to mention a few things regarding the Hull floods, and the Pitt report.

In Hull, most of the houses that flooded are in areas at, or below, sea level. Drainage is pumped from the lowest point close to the Humber estuary back up to sea level and is thus discharged.
The Hull flooding was a combination of two factors, which I believe the Pitt report recognises:
Firstly, prolonged pumping of these large drainage pumps required one of the pumps to be serviced. This reduced the capacity to discharge drainage water to the Humber.
Secondly, funding for street drainage has been cut for a number of years, and therefore the street drains were unable to allow free and rapid flow away from the at-risk areas.

The first issue mentioned here is very hard to manage. Yorkshire water maintain the pumps, and at the beginning of the flood event they were working well and were properly serviced.
The second issue mentioned here is more interesting. Hull city council had limited resources to maintain the street drains. Local residents voted this council in, along with their council tax policy.

With regard to protecting these houses against further flooding…well the councils can aknowledge that maintaining storm drains is a significant priority which must be accounted for in the council tax budgeting (and the residents must pay more council tax accordingly…).
However, some realism needs to be brought into the equation when concidering volumes that need accommodating. I discussed the Hull floods with an EA hydrologist after the event. He suggested that to accommodate that volume of water, you’d need drains running down every street large enough to drive a car down. Its worth pointing out at this point that the floods were of a magnitude previously believed to be a one in two hundred event.

So some stark decisions need to made, and its not good enough to say the councils are burying their heads in the sand. To protect Hull from a similar flood again would cost billions of pounds, take many years (if not decades) to implement and (based on previous rainfall…) would lie idle for 99.5% of the time. The residents of Hull are the only people that can, or should, choose if this is a journey they want to embark on.

There’s a big question about whether these floods will happen more frequently in future (was it really a 1 in 200 event?). If this type of rainfall happens more frequently, a raw choice needs to be made: either pay billions of pounds and have many years of disturbance, abandon this area of the country, or continue taking the risks.

The Pit report has recommended that the major institution involved work more closely together. I know for a fact that this has already started happening, and I’d wager a pound to a penny that there’ll be more significant developments in this regard within a month.

With regard to your understanding of new builds being built with regard to flooding: For the last five years or so, Planning Policy Statement 25 required that the EA be consulted on any development within the areas we(the EA) and more importantly the insurance industry, recognise as being at flood risk. The EA will object to any development that doesn’t adequately address the flooding risk.
There are, however, instances were local councils have over-ruled these objections. In this circumstance, the local planning authority is allowing development regardless of best available knowledge, therefore it’s extremely unlikely that any such house will receive insurance. The liability will (probably..) reside with the local authorities. This is an evolving issue at present, and as far as I’m aware has not yet been tested.

This is just my view, but I dont think sensational articles help move the debate forward.
I have read the Pit report (in its draft form....it was released yesterday in its final format), and feel that its an extremely good, constructive report that will hopefully result in better co-oporation, and a more realistic understanding of flood risk from large institutions through to local governments through to indeviduals.

We all have a roll to play, and no single organisation is "to blame" for the recent floods. We have to get used to the fact that it's going to be part of life, and we must be prepared to addapt accordingly.
OP

Our town was badly damaged by the floods last year, when the "beck" which normally runs mostly under the town became a river and flowed 3ft deep down the high street instead. I understand the Environment Agency attended a recent town council meeting to explain what they intended to do to prevent this happening again. Apparently there was some "aggressive" questioning by the councillors, which is probably understandable if not excusable in the circumstances. There is clearly not enough funding to fix the problem, but poor maintenance of drains seems to have been a major factor and I believe this will now be remedied.

I also note that East Riding Council intends to increase its population by 25% by 2029, according to its local development plan. That will require considerable house building, and it is acknowledged that it will include building in flood plains. So whilst I agree no one organisation is to blame for the floods, if local authorities want to build in flood plains they must surely take responsibility for the consequences.
James

True, if local authorities disregard the advice of the EA and the insurance industry and plough on with development in flood risk areas, then they are liable for the consequences of that action (imo).

I'm not sure if it was at your local meeting, OP, but some of the local meetings held in the East Riding and south Yorks had to have police support to keep things civil.
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