Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption
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Nick
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Central heating system. Airlock?Hello all you domestic heating system engineers.
We appear to have a lack of water in the top half of our house's heating system. Radiators can be bled, and air rushes out, but eventually, it stabilises, and no actual water arrives. There's a lot of noise coming from the pipes that should carry the hot water about to various sections of the house. It's now too dark and the shop's are shut, so I'm not venturing into the loft to see if the expansion/filler tank thingie has any water in it, but if that's OK, what else should I be looking for or doing?
If the expansion/filling tank is empty, then I think I know which pump/switch I can blame, but any thoughts are most welcome!
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Treacodactyl
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If you have enough water in your tank and bleeding the radiators doesn't help you could have a blockage in a pipe somewhere. You could try closing off some of the rads and leave one higher up the house open to see if more oomph from pump clears it.
I tried to fix someone else's problem that sounds similar and I even fitted a hose to the system to flush it out and replaced some 15mm pipe with 22mm pipe but, in the end, it turned out the pump was on its last legs and didn't have enough power to shunt the water round.
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stumbling goat
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i agree with treodactyl. not that i am qualified, but from personal experience.
i had a problem with my system, bled and bled them but to no avail. then i shut off all rads apart from 1 at the top of the house. when that got hot, i closed it off and opened another, and when that got hot i closed it and opened another and so on. now i have them all working. air was trapped somewhere but bleeding did no good.
how much to get a pump and try that?
good luck, at least it is getting warmer now though.
4&
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Treacodactyl
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I'll add I have no plumbing qualifications either, but if you get someone out and they try and charge £500 to flush the system get a second opinion.
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Nick
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Been and checked. The filler tank is full, and the ballcock/switch is working fine. The outlet pipe isn't blocked, either. I can't put a hose on, as we have no water pressure worth talking about, so I'll try isolating and bleeding before calling out the British Gas Engineers. We're covered, but if there's a simple fix, I'd rather do that than have to organise them.
Thanks!
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Shane
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You want a technician, not an engineer - regardless of what their stupid adverts say 
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Nick
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Well, yes, I know anyone with a spanner is an engineer these days.
This morning, the boiler is refusing to fire up, so we have no heating or hot water. Lights are on, but no pumping through the system. I bled all the rads last night, and some had lots of air in. The downstairs ones all have water in now, but the upstairs ones are all dry.
I know we have a pump for the central heating, will there be one for the hot water? And if I've shifted lots of air about the system, could this have knocked out the hot water system, too? I know there's plenty of fresh water coming into the house, and the expansion tank is still full.
Good job it's warm, and we have an immersion. (Hot water can still be drawn from the tank, and is being replaced.)
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Treacodactyl
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You normally have a single pump and a three-way valve that either shunts the water from the boiler round the central heating or round the hot tank. Sounds like there might be an air-lock near the pump or the pump is dead, or something else is wrong.
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Nick
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Yeah, top half of the house appears to have no water (rads can't be fully bled), and the pump/cylinder is at the same level. I shall call out the Gas boys. However, as an aside, what causes so much air to get into the system? There's no obvious leaks.
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Shane
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A knackered pump won't cause a system to fill with air, but a system full of air will knacker a pump.
Even if the pump does turn out to be shot, you'll need to work out why you've lost so much water.
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Nick
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Well, BG have promised to have someone here by one to sort it. I shall report back.
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Treacodactyl
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As the expansion tank should be at the highest point I'm not sure how a large amount of air can get into a system without a leak somewhere. Has it suddenly happened or have the upstairs rads been a bit cold for a long time? Water from a smallish leak can evaporate off without leaving much of a mark but, again, I'd expect the system to refill. Sounds a bit of a mystery to me, if it's an old system I bet they'll blame sludge and suggest a powerflush.
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Nick
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Tank is at the highest point. Rads about the house, in areas we don't use have been cold for a while, and we have one or two downstairs that don't work well. It is an old system, and water we bleed off is dirty at times, so sludge I'd accept. Anyway, Craig the technician is here now, drinking tea, and sucking through his teeth. We're on a fixed price, so I don't care what they suggest, as long as they make it work.
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Nick
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| Treacodactyl wrote: | | I'll add I have no plumbing qualifications either, but if you get someone out and they try and charge £500 to flush the system get a second opinion. |
Power flush, 592. And also they recommend a Magnapure magnetic cleanser for an extra 99. (not included in our agreement).
And this before he's done very much.
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12Bore
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Did Craig try bleeding the system from the pump?
I had a similar problem last year, after days of radiator bleeding and swearing I was in the process of taking up the bathroom floor, to get at the three way valve which I thought had stuck, when I spotted a bleed valve on the pump. 10 minutes later (it was a HUGE airlock!!) all was tickety - boo. The air had built up before the pump, so there was no water going though the system.
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wellington womble
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hi - its mr womble here -
normally on the pipework to your hot water cylinder you will have a feed and expansion that goes up to the tank in the loft - this is normally quite close together so you can easily see it - this is where blockages occur - start central heating pump and hit this part of the pipework repeatedly with the handle of a hammer ( i.e. soft part )
regards,
alex
i hope this helps
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Nick
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Pump was knackered. Also, PCB in boiler blew up at same time, but technician doesn't think they're linked.
Back tomorrow with spare PCB, and we'll go from there. Thansk for the help so far. Pump had (clearish) water in it.
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Nick
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Update, and help needed, please!
The new PCB has not fixed the boiler. Technician maintains there's a blockage, although, when I pointed out that the hot water side of the system runs fine (cold in, immersion, tank, hot out), but the boiler still fails to work, he conceded there may be a problem, rather than a blockage in the pipe work to rads.
I am covered if it's an airlock, but not covered if it's a physical blockage. HOW can I tell the difference? The problem arose, I think, because I've suddenly bled a bunch of upstairs rads, and they are all now cold and no water can be drawn from them.
So, physical, or airlock, and how do we know?
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Northern_Lad
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Is it a single loop system? If so, can open the lowest radiator and drain the entire system? Then, once it stops flooding out (remembering to open the bleed valve at the top of the system, close it all up again and go to the ones at the top and open their drain and bleed valves. If anything comes out then you've probably got a physical blockage.
If anyone wants to tell me that this is tripe then please do so.
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Treacodactyl
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The water in the hot tank, heated by the immersion heater, is on a completely different water circuit than the boiler, so if you can get hot water out by using the immersion heater that doesn't mean anything. (Assuming it's an indirect system)
If the boiler isn't working at all then I don't know what else to suggest. If it's heating some rads you can sometimes find out where the blockage is by feeling the pipe work.
If the engineer can't tell if it's a blockage then I would say they shouldn't charge. The only other thing I can suggest is draining the system and refilling.
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Treacodactyl
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Thinking a bit more, shouldn't the boiler at least fire up and then cut-out if there's a blockage? I.e. how does it know not to work, I'd have thought it would be based on a temperature sensor but I don't have any idea.
If you do have to have a powerflush and they'll not do it for free perhaps offer to go halves as they don't know if it's an air-lock or blockage?
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Nick
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| Treacodactyl wrote: | | The water in the hot tank, heated by the immersion heater, is on a completely different water circuit than the boiler, so if you can get hot water out by using the immersion heater that doesn't mean anything. (Assuming it's an indirect system) |
The rational is that he thought a blockage in the heating system, probably sludge, that could be cured by spending 600 quid, was preventing the bolier from working. My rational was that I'd agree, but only if the boiler would heat the hot water. It won't. It locks out rather than light, suggesting a blocked rad is not my immediate issue.
He's on the phone to Baxi right now (I'm pretty sure he's fairly clueless). Suggestion is to get the boiler working, then attempt to diagnose a blockage/air lock in the heating system.
NL's system does seem sensible.
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stumbling goat
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my 2p worth.
if the technician can not diagnose the problem get one that can. i would not employ an expert that was not expert at the task in hand.
regarding the pump, i would shut off all rads. turn on the rad at the top of the system and turn heating on, this needs an operating boiler, and see if that rad gets warm. if and when it does, turn it off and then the next furthest rad from the boiler, and wait to see if that gets warmth. repeat for the whole, system.
i would then check the central heating feed and expansion tank (normally in the loft) for clear water and no obstruction in the feed pipe (the one at the bottom of the tank). if this is clear and fills fine i would empty the system from the lowest point drain valve and then put a hose on that drain point and fluch it through until the water eraches the F and E tank, then allow the system to drain until running clear again, then refill with an anti sludge product, i believe fernox do one. and fire up and test.
a pain to do but not difficult just time consuming.
good luck if you do any of this. i am not qualified in plumbing or central heating although i have installed many systems from scratch and sorted out blockages. so, the above is what i would work through.
f4
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Nick
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Also, we don't have mains pressure water, but we do have a pumpd supply to the attic, which comes out near the expansion/filler tank. BIL's suggestion is to open a rad bleed valve upstairs, and try and fill the system from this pumped supply. Should move airlocks, but perhaps less successful on sludge.
He's just worked out that the fan, which was broken and given a running repair three months ago is dead (on the boiler), and he doesn't have a spare. Wasn't the PCB at all...
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Nick
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| stumbling goat wrote: | my 2p worth.
if the technician can not diagnose the problem get one that can. i would not employ an expert that was not expert at the task in hand. |
To do that means ringing at yelling at BG, which I'm prepared to do, if need be. As for the technical advice, yep, all depends on getting the boiler unbroken, and ties in with the thoughts so far.
You know, the support and suggestions here and from my BIL are in valuable. Without it, I would have signed up for a grand's worth of powerflush and magnapure yesterday, and still had no heating or water. Thanks.
KEEP IT COMING.
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Treacodactyl
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Hopefully the fan will sort it and they you can go through the suggested steps to get rid of any air. If the boiler still doesn't work perhaps you need to suggest a more experienced technician visits?
Good luck, it looks like it's not going to be too cold for the next week. 
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Nick
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Ordered parts, in tomorrow morning, but because we're now on third visit, it will flag up on the Tech Services manager's system and he should come along to see (however, he's in meetings...)
Back tomorrow with another exciting installment!
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stumbling goat
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oh oh, BG!!
sales alarm bells shoudl be riniging. a friend of mine had a boiler leak. The BG technical expert attended, well 2 of them in theior own little technical expert vans and condemned the boiler, suggesting a newer model.
my quite practical friend isolated the leak, and the boiler is still fine some 3 years later. oh, and the boiler that BG wanted to flog them for their 5 bed detached house was recomended by BG for 1 to 2 bedroom flats.
appreciate it may be a hassle but i would always get a second opinion on any suggestion by BG.
let is know how you get on.
jf
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Nick
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[Geordie accent]
Day Three in the British Gas House, and the boiler's still broken. Craig, the technician has replaced both broken parts but is still getting a red light. Despite a Jaffa Cake bar and a mug of tea, he's still swearing.
Meanwhile, as the temperature slowly plummets, Nick dons another jumper and continues to hide in the office.
[/crap parody]
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Cathryn
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I do so like this thread in an horribly fatalistic sort of a way, I have bookmarked it for future use. Do please keep it coming. 
We however do not have a contract with British Gas, presumably I can see this as a plus point for now. 
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Behemoth
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| Nick wrote: | [Geordie accent]
Day Three in the British Gas House, and the boiler's still broken. Craig, the technician has replaced both broken parts but is still getting a red light. Despite a Jaffa Cake bar and a mug of tea, he's still swearing.
Meanwhile, as the temperature slowly plummets, Nick dons another jumper and continues to hide in the office.
[/crap parody] |
How cold? Are the Hoff's nips up?
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Nick
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Not that cold, but cold enough for the wife to moan about it, you know? And, to be fair, I need it fixed NOW, as I'm away all next week and no-one can be home during the day...
My nipples are at rest, I'm afraid.
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Treacodactyl
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Dare I ask, do they or Baxi have any idea what's up? Do they still suggest a flush and have they started talking new boilers yet?
On the bright side, your CO2 output has dropped the last few days.
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Nick
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Boiler now works. Almost. The flow switch is preventing it from turning on, which might JUST BE BECAUSE THERE'S NO WATER in the top of the system. He's thinking about backfilling, but he's not rushing. Seems to be a lot of work. (attach hose to cold inlet, attach hose to hot outlet, 5 feet away, open rad bleed valve, turn pump on, wait)
Ringing a lot of colleagues, and seeming more clueless. That said, he hasn't tried to sell me anything yet....
CO2? Um. The gas fire still works. Very well, thanks. However, it produces no CO2 as the gas is free. It's a kind of off-setting.
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Jonnyboy
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| Nick wrote: | | [ Despite a Jaffa Cake bar |
You really hate him then.
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Cathryn
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Perleease, he must have brought it with him. 
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yummersetter
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| Nick wrote: |
CO2? Um. The gas fire still works. Very well, thanks. However, it produces no CO2 as the gas is free. It's a kind of off-setting. |
Despite an annual very lowkey request, BG didn't give us an account for years so by your reckoning we didn't upset the ozone layer much from 2000 to 2007. Except for the hot-air ballooning, of course
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Behemoth
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| Jonnyboy wrote: | | Nick wrote: | | [ Despite a Jaffa Cake bar |
You really hate him then. |
I can't believe he let it in his house.
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Nick
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Day four.
Craig has returned from the diary room, and although the boiler now works, if you lie to it about having water flowing, the water elsewhere refuses to flow. A blockage has been found in the cold inlet, where it hits the main system, and is full of what the Engineer (Craig's boss) has described as 'crap'. It's all Iron oxide, and sticks nicely to a magnet.
Discussions of powerflushing went round and round again, until Craig's boss pointed out that it was powerflushed when installed by BG, and therefore we're covered for EVER. Own Goal!
So, there is a promise of heat today, heat tomorrow, blockage removal and installation right now, (can you hear the saws, Fernando?), of a MAGNACLEANER, which will remove 'crap' from the system on a daily basis. Might sting me for 200 notes, but might get the wife off my back. Cheap, at half the price.
We'll rejoin this after coffee.
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Nick
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| wellington womble wrote: | hi - its mr womble here -
normally on the pipework to your hot water cylinder you will have a feed and expansion that goes up to the tank in the loft - this is normally quite close together so you can easily see it - this is where blockages occur - start central heating pump and hit this part of the pipework repeatedly with the handle of a hammer ( i.e. soft part )
regards,
alex
i hope this helps |
It helped, in that you were right, and I told Craig to look there. It didn't help, in that I did the hitting, but it didn't help. So, you can assume a slightly smug feeling, and yet know I'm still cold.
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Treacodactyl
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So, flush at their expense and magic thingy at yours? Does the magic thingy have some way for you to clean it to get all this oxide out?
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Nick
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That's the bottom line, yes. The magnetic thingie will be emptied as part of our annual service, but they recommend cleaning it once a week until it stops picking up crap, just to help sort the system out. It's got an isolation valve either side, so, turn off, pull out, rinse, kind of thing.
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Treacodactyl
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Sounds reasonable then. Make sure they put a suitable inhibitor in when they refill and keep an eye out for any leaks after the flush.
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Nick
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Indeed. Craig has been sent to another job by his boss. I get the distinct impression Craig won't be around much longer. Still, if I get heating before I go on this stag weekend, all will be well in my world.
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dpack
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i was in unheated the last few weeks ,my sympathy,im used to it but no hot water/heating is hard
hope it is sorted soon
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Nick
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We always had the immersion, so hot water was here, if a bit limited. NOW, however, I can hear fresh water running into the pipes, and they promise it's nearly done...
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dpack
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hooves crossed
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Nick
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I don't mind much. I'm spending the next 7 nights in an hotel.
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dpack
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all heart
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wellington womble
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| Nick wrote: | | wellington womble wrote: | hi - its mr womble here -
normally on the pipework to your hot water cylinder you will have a feed and expansion that goes up to the tank in the loft - this is normally quite close together so you can easily see it - this is where blockages occur - start central heating pump and hit this part of the pipework repeatedly with the handle of a hammer ( i.e. soft part )
regards,
alex
i hope this helps |
It helped, in that you were right, and I told Craig to look there. It didn't help, in that I did the hitting, but it didn't help. So, you can assume a slightly smug feeling, and yet know I'm still cold. |
I'll get him to dispense more wisdom when he comes back later. If it helps, we don't have any heating either, just at the moment!
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Nick
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There is heat in some of the rads, and much banging of expanding pipes about the house....
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Nick
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I HAVE HEAT!
Bill for the hardware, all labour free, and an apology that it took so long.
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wellington womble
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Perhaps you ought to send Craig round here.......
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dpack
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glad it is fixed
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sean
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I was hoping that if it stayed cold for long enough Nick would have an avatar with more clothes on.
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Lorrainelovesplants
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I would write a letter of complaint to the head of British Gas and copy it to their customer service. Due to the shoddy investigative workwhich took in your opinion far too long, and the consequential lack ofheat/hot water and the fact that you lost 4 working days(and therefore wages) you wish a monetary offer from them.
Ifyou dont complain, some other poor sod will get a visit from Craig...and the shit technical 'expertise'he can offer.
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