Bodger
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In search of the Unobtainable. Creating the perfect Lurcher.For the unenlightened, a lurcher is a running dog that is designed to catch various quarry. Or of course it can be a back street accident.
A lurcher can be created by crossing two different pure bred sight hounds. For example a Saluki crossed with a Greyhound, or say a Whippet cross Saluki for greatly increased stamina. If people want a large lurcher then they will quite often cross a Deerhound or a Wolfhound onto a Greyhound, There are quite a few combinations to choose from.
The other way to create a lurcher is to cross any of the sight hounds or gaze hounds as they are sometimes called with a different breed of dog completely.
More often than not the starting point will be a greyhound or whippet and then the idea should be to blend the qualities of the other breed with the afore mentioned speed.
So for example you would use a Collie for brains and guile, a Beddlington for a reduction in size and an increase in gameness, any of the Bull breeds for gameness. The combinations using this method are truly endless and I've seen some truly wierd crosses in my time. I've seen Standard Poodle,Alsation, Doberman and even Wolf lurchers.
I think that I've explained the basic idea behind lurcher design, but now to throw a spanner in the works. In a nut shell the theory doesn't always work. Its not like mixing paint. The dog that I have now should have turned out like a large whippet. She is a3/4 whippet 1/4 greyhound. She should have been between 30 and 40lbs but instead she's the size of a large Greyhound in excess of 60lb.
To further complicate lurcher breeding even further , a lot of lurchers are created by lurcher to lurcher matings . In this instance the genes of umpteen breeds go into the melting pot and the variations that result can be massive. The dogs can be very good but it really is pot luck as to what you get.
In theory, the type of lurcher thats in demand today should have changed since the passing of the Hunting Bill. Whether you agree with it or not, you are now no longer legally allowed to hunt deer, fox or hare with your lurcher. The only worth while quarry still on the list is the rabbit. If peope take a practical approach to the hunting climate inexistance today, we should see a general decline in size of the lurchers that we see today and in the future.
I do quite a lot of rabbiting with a lamp and lurcher. My ideal dog is becoming harder and harder to find . I've always used non pedigree racing whippets with great success. In earlier days they were easier to find but not now. The pedigree whippet is useless for the job. Can't run by comparison and hasn't got the stamina or gameness for a long nights work.
Have any dog peope out there got any views as to what their best lurcher would be? Perhaps you've got one now?
Because of the hunting I do now, I would be looking for the brains of the collie, the speed of the whippet and the stamina of the saluki. I'd have to be very lucky to get a dog that would combine the three in just the right combination.
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hedgewitch
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As you know, I'm very taken with the salukiXgreyhound 
Not sure about brains from a collie though? I'd agree on biddable, but don't think they're too smart  (shall I get me coat now?)
The mixes are fascinating - I'm quite new to all this and want to learn a lot more. I know the salukiXgrey is a classic coursing hound, and so now presumably in danger of not being bred. Mine is not great on rabbits (yet), so practically not so good these days.
I like this cross as in the ones I've come across you get the more biddable greyhound nature with the saluki stamina, and of course the greyhound speed over short distances. And I just love the way they run. Having a full saluki too, I have definate views on that distinctive saluki free spirit! I love the saluki I have, but don't think I'd get another one - or not an English bred one for sure. 
One of the things that saddens me most about the hunting ban is the loss of the generations of knowledge about breeding and training as well as the loss of the lines of hounds themselves. 
Can I ask a question too? What's a longdog and what's a lurcher? I thought that longdog = 2 sight hounds as parents, lurcher = sight hound + working dog (however that's defined) as parents. Is this right? I'm never very sure of myself on this one 
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@Calli
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)The trouble with mixing - gaze x brains/stamina - you may adore both attributes (i love saluki and deerhound per se) but what comes out doesn't always have the spirit of the breed that attracted in the first place. Obviously talking personal preference here but has to be brindled!!!(Ihave hidden shallows  )
To cause more argument: was horrified in kerry to see what i thought was a greyhound trials day WASNT 
Quick get the kids were off! Did not add 2and 2 when saw the sheeting around the field
Nothing against a fair sport but this was nothing like a fair run...
Gives good useful dogs a bad name....
As its Friday can we have some photos of lurchers - even gratuitous
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Northern_Lad
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| hedgewitch wrote: | | ...Having a full saluki too, I have definate views on that distinctive saluki free spirit! ... |
Next door to me have one; it's a complete nut-job. Daft ears, the legs are too long, and she's highly vocal, but she's a nice enough creature.
Oh, and I'd say the collies are stupid creatures, but highly loyal, trainable and obedient.
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Bodger
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HW
I've always used the term long dog to refer to a lurcher with a slight bias towards using it when talking of coursing type lurchers
Saluki lurchers come in all sizes. I've known bitches that have only come at around 40lbs whilst I have seen dogs at over 60lbs.
The Saluki lurcher can be a strange creature. I've known them to catch hares and rabbits like crazy and then sometimes even the same dog the following day not try at all. They can be very infuriating. The right dog can be unbeatable.
They inherit the stamina from the Saluki and can almost run all day. Some times they seem as though they don't put 100% into the chase and I've seen dogs that almost seem to amble on just behind their quarry.
One thing to watch out for with Salukis, is that they can become psycho stock killers. Once they start they can be impossible to break and they will kill cats for fun.Nothings safe.
Salukis don't have a huge amount between their ears. Saluki devotees will tell you that its not the dog but a failing in the owner.
I'm not convinced by the arguement , but some of the best coursing dogs that I've seen have been Saluki crosses. There is however a big failure rate as well.
The smartest lurchers that I've had have had collie in them. They can be something else, almost like a third hand
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hedgewitch
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| Northern_Lad wrote: | | hedgewitch wrote: | | ...Having a full saluki too, I have definate views on that distinctive saluki free spirit! ... |
Next door to me have one; it's a complete nut-job. Daft ears, the legs are too long, and she's highly vocal, but she's a nice enough creature.
Oh, and I'd say the collies are stupid creatures, but highly loyal, trainable and obedient. |
The daft ears are something I don't like. Mine girl has only light feathering. I hate to see a good hound made to look like a 1970's pop star  The breed has been taken over by dog show freaks who, IMHO, are in danger of ruining it. Apparently the afghan hound used to be a perfectly respectable, working sight hound until it became a showring favourite. Now, in the USA, it has been altered to meet "standards" and often can't even run in the usual sight hound manner. 
I'd love to go to the middle east or north africa and see what the salukis are like there... although apparently, american breeders are showing them how to selectovely breed for the showring rather than for working attributes now, in a bid to "standardise" the breed
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dpack
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(fox hound x ridgeback ) x ( greyhound x pointer ) then x johnson line
clever , tough , fast , a bit wild but trainable
total athlete
irish wolfhound x greyhound is ace
add spaniel to the top line and they are quite nice as well
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@Calli
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That is one of the problems when a breed has a standard imposed which may not have any rlelvance to the purpose of the animal originally!
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hedgewitch
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| ExilesinGalway wrote: | )
As its Friday can we have some photos of lurchers - even gratuitous |
Here you go, EIG...
Relaxing hounds...
Salukixgrey grappling with a boxer...
Saluki not looking like Rod Stewart...
And hopefully with legs not too like Kate Moss...
And saluki and salukiXgrey playing the "snappy" game... a kind of dueling game they play....
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hedgewitch
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Woops! Posted pix twice - sorry
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Bodger
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A small percentage of Border Terriers will still work but the rest of the pedigrees are simply pets and show dogs.
The Jack Russell is following very quickly down the same road since it was taken in by the KC.
Don't confuse the term work with the ability to catch the odd mouse or rat.
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Bodger
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I can almost hear that Saluki thinking " Where that bloody cat then ?"
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Northern_Lad
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| bodger wrote: | | I can almost hear that Saluki thinking " Where that bloody cat then ?" |
Next door's looks like babmi on rollerskates most of the time, but she can't half shift when she wants to though.
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hedgewitch
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| bodger wrote: | | I can almost hear that Saluki thinking " Where that bloody cat then ?" |
Yup - although they both have responded to being called back from a cat chase. Wouldn't trust the saluki to do this, though. She is only let off in certain places.
Bodge, the traits you mention in the salukiX are all very familiar from my saluki, but not the cross. I suspect he is a bit of a one on his own, though.
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Bodger
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Don't let the looks fool you. I bet you don't have too many cat problems in your area.
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hedgewitch
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| Northern_Lad wrote: | | bodger wrote: | | I can almost hear that Saluki thinking " Where that bloody cat then ?" |
Next door's looks like babmi on rollerskates most of the time, but she can't half shift when she wants to though. |
I met someone who has a big house, very very long driveway etc. They keep salukis and drove behind one that was well in his stride, running. They clocked 40 miles an hour.
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joanne
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Personal preferences aside - I have to say I'm getting really fed up with the now almost constant slagging off of people who show their dogs - Like any other group of people - there are good ones and bad ones - I get the distinct sense of superiority from those who keep pure working lines of whatever breed.
My own breed is a working terrier - it is one of the oldest known pedigree breeds in the world - the club of which I'm Secretary has been in existence since 1875 - the standard since 1876. The majority of us don't work our dogs - they were breed for use against Brock, Fox and Otters as well as general vermin - not exactly legal quarry these days - but we fight very hard to maintain our breed and keep the gameness within their temperament - In the states we have a number of Earthdog Champions in the breed.
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Bodger
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Excuse me! When did anyone on this thread slag off non working breeds of terriers?
This thread is about working dogs , so please don't get on your high horse about something that hasn't even been mentioned.
Theres absolutely no need to try and bring this sort of attitude into this thread. Please desist
Are you out to spoil a harmless friendly bit of chat? and how can something be constant, when as far as I know that this is about the first time that a topic of working dogs has ever been brought up on Downsizer ?
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hedgewitch
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| jocorless wrote: | Personal preferences aside - I have to say I'm getting really fed up with the now almost constant slagging off of people who show their dogs - Like any other group of people - there are good ones and bad ones - I get the distinct sense of superiority from those who keep pure working lines of whatever breed.
My own breed is a working terrier - it is one of the oldest known pedigree breeds in the world - the club of which I'm Secretary has been in existence since 1875 - the standard since 1876. The majority of us don't work our dogs - they were breed for use against Brock, Fox and Otters as well as general vermin - not exactly legal quarry these days - but we fight very hard to maintain our breed and keep the gameness within their temperament - In the states we have a number of Earthdog Champions in the breed. |
Apologies, Jocorless. I have good friends who are breeders and their knowledge, expertise and love of their dogs is second to none. They take the responsiblility of maintaining and developing their dogs very seriously.
But, I do feel saddened when I see other people standardising a breed with no thought to the origins of the breed. And I do feel this has happened in certain sections of the saluki breeding world. Not everyone, for sure, but there is a move in this direction.
And I do worry for the future of sight hounds now the hunting ban has removed the reason for their existance as a working dog.
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joanne
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| bodger wrote: | Excuse me! When did anyone on this thread slag off non working breeds of terriers?
This thread is about working dogs , so please don't get on your high horse about something that hasn't even been mentioned.
Theres absolutely no need to try and bring this sort of attitude into this thread. Please desist
Are you out to spoil a harmless friendly bit of chat? and how can something be constant, when as far as I know that this is about the first time that a topic of working dogs has ever been brought up on Downsizer ? |
No I'm not out to spoil anyone harmless friendly chatter but there has been a number of threads over the last few months where posters have brought up the subject of pedigree dog owners and had a sideways dig - The last one I noticed it in was the showing chickens thread but I let it go then
I didn't you were having slagging off non-working terrier owners - I was putting my comments into perspective and giving some background into my point of view.
I personally found the topic very interesting as I didn't know about the different varieties of lurcher and their uses.
I know there are some breeds that have been changed for the worse by the show ring - The GSD is one awful such example, the modern bulldog another BUT not everyone is like that - Its like saying everyone who owns a gun and goes shooting is an indiscriminate murderer.
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Bodger
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J
The reason that all the KC breeds of terriers are no longer really workers is because there's no longer a need for their services .
Even before the ban, the number of working terrier men was quite small. I know because I use to be one of their number.
I now keep 4 non working Border Terriers, who havent had the working ability trained out of them but bred out of them . They are from show and pet stock.
I go hunting regularly in America and have people come across to stay with me whilst they buy working terriers from the UK. There isn't a history of working terriers in the States. They are very new to it and are in awe in general of the terrier men over here.
I've attended terrier trials over there and they are none too impressive.
My mate sent me an earth dog book by Teddy Moritz ( I'm sure you've heard of her) and I had a job to keep my face straight.
I think no less of a non working dog than I do of a working dog . Indeed I love my non workers every bit as much as I did my working dogs in the past.
I've put this picture on here before but these are my non working very happy Borders.
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hedgewitch
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I might be obsessing a little on the saluki X greyhound here but...
Does anyone know about the actual crosses?
Is the cross one parent of each? Or do you cross that first cross with another first cross? What are the benefits/drawbacks of different generations of crossing (if you follow me?)?
Also, is there any difference in which sex/breed the parents of the first cross are? For example, are some traits passed on by the mother specifically, meaning you'd favour one breed over another for the mother depending on what traits you were aiming for?
I know it's nothing like an exact science, but I wondered if there were any observations or old lore on this....
I'd be interested in knowing about the crossing generally too
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Bodger
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You can have all sorts of Salukli Greyhound crosses.
1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and so on. It doesn't matter whether the Saluki input comes from the male or the female side.
If you're talking about the working qualities of the off spring the most important bit about the match is the working qualities of the parents. Can they run ? Can they catch.
By preference you only breed lurchers from the best coursing and hunting strains of greyhounds and Salukis available
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@Calli
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| Quote: | | I know there are some breeds that have been changed for the worse by the show ring - The GSD is one awful such example, the modern bulldog another BUT not everyone is like that - Its like saying everyone who owns a gun and goes shooting is an indiscriminate murderer. |
Why is the GSD so bad? My two are very well bred old style straight backed GSDs
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Tavascarow
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| Quote: | | The last one I noticed it in was the showing chickens thread but I let it go then |
That was me & I apologise if I offended. It was only a generalisation.
I have nothing against breed standards but I would hate to see all breeds completely standardised. Maybe the saluki owners should start a working category as they have done with other working breeds
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Bodger
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Tavascarow.
They had and then they went and banned coursing !
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hedgewitch
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| bodger wrote: | | Don't let the looks fool you. I bet you don't have too many cat problems in your area. |
You could be right! I think we're lucky in that the places we let them off are relatively cat free.
Or they are now... 
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hedgewitch
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| bodger wrote: | You can have all sorts of Salukli Greyhound crosses.
1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and so on. It doesn't matter whether the Saluki input comes from the male or the female side.
If you're talking about the working qualities of the off spring the most important bit about the match is the working qualities of the parents. Can they run ? Can they catch.
By preference you only breed lurchers from the best coursing and hunting strains of greyhounds and Salukis available |
I wish I knew the parentage of my lad. He was "talent spotted" by a local lurcher man when he was v young (the hound, not the bloke!) and he does seem to be developing in the way this guy said he would. I feel like I'm missing out on half the fun with not knowing what was hoped for when he was bred. And in another life, I'd love to get into breeding them. Of course, that would be in the parallell universe where I also learn to ride, shoot, work with leather and have blacksmithing skills
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dpack
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my ones
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spanky
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have had lab x greys and a border collie x grey and all the long dog mixes and without a doubt a welsh collie x greyhound ( the big type ) is the best i have ever seen . and used .for rabbit hare and foxes . shame was she got killed running into a broken pail fence , get a bitch grey hound and put a big 3 yr old collie dog over her , run the bitches as the dogs are a bit headstrong
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Tavascarow
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Would a collie x wippet be more agile?
The fields are small here & the rabbits have less distance to reach cover.
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Bodger
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Ideal for rabbiting but if the master isn't up to the job they might be to bright for their own good. Thats why I favour big raw boned non pedigree racing whippets. We're on a parr.
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joanne
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| ExilesinGalway wrote: | | Quote: | | I know there are some breeds that have been changed for the worse by the show ring - The GSD is one awful such example, the modern bulldog another BUT not everyone is like that - Its like saying everyone who owns a gun and goes shooting is an indiscriminate murderer. |
Why is the GSD so bad? My two are very well bred old style straight backed GSDs |
Thats exactly what I mean - the English style of the GSD used to have a beautiful straight back and could work all day without stopping - now modern day German style GSD's have a very weak back end and terrible problems with their hips
Compare these beautiful dogs
to this -
I know which sort I'd rather have
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Bodger
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Surely one of the reasons why there are still recognised physically fit 'working' strains of GSDs is the demand for working dogs from the police and the armed services.
The other factor will have been a group of level headed showing people who have designed their breeding programmes to produce sane physically sound pups.
I don't know what the state of play is with the GSD in regard to it sorting out any breed defects, but you can rest assured that the back and hip problem that your photos so graphically display will have been introduced by a section of the showing fraternity.
At one time or another the exagerated type of specimens will have held sway in the show ring , I presume and hope that his is no longer the case.
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Banshee
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Its not the hips that give way, its the nerves that go, back in Ireland we had a few GSD's and they all unfortunatly went the same way. Hence why I have a stupid SBT.
Shame that these dogs are afflicted with this. Its easy to spot early on. when the dog walks you will see one of his back legs hitting his other leg, then its a downward slope from there, very sad 
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@Calli
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I don't know what the breed standards for gsd states but why would anyone - even in show ring want dogs with hip/joint problems - not fit for their job.
My gsd bitch now 14 and still going strong(old style flat back - shall we reform the standards all should be flat backed?)
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Bodger
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At the end of the day I'm afraid that its £s shillings and pence that leads to the downfall of many pedigree breeds of dogs.
Banshee I reckon a nice SBT x Greyhound would serve you well 
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spanky
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i used to breed them under the ducarakarlakie kc name , my dogs all came from shooterway centaus - letton premium bob crufts 77 and kingbruin the bear who had hips of 1.1 as soon as they put a german dog zanto zuden stocken of emmervale in the line it wrecked the dogs completly scores went to 4.4 and that dog was the german sch 1 a stamp, my other dogs came from a true british line ramacon swashbuckler crufts supreme champion in 71 they went though to the hendrawen spartacist and tarquin and turned out brilliant english gsd with real good bone and body structure , the fault came when they brought a dawnaway dominic into the line and he threw a longcoat gene. peronally i think this came from a x ing with lynova lucilla a non descript bitch who came out of a champion rossfort premonition and delicia of krakatoa again a non descript xing . we have lost the true english blood lines now with the mad rush to germanise the dog .hopefully somewhere there is a true british line that will be used to recover the genes in the gsd when they end up looking like squat manchester terriers
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dpack
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you know your gsds 
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spanky
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we had 26 mate sold them to raf and police ,i worked with humberside police as a runner also had a gsd at crufts in the agilty stakes ,nowwe have the suffolk dog team do tracking on the etsate where i work i have gundogs now tho. hate what the german blood has done to the breed
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dpack
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proper pack
i have resisted the fashions of dogdom cos they do cause problems breeding working dogs is very different to breeding for fashion .
my home breeds have been mixed ,when i have had control i have tried to add complimentary genes to each other and pick the best from the litter .
something that has surprised me is how pairings of good (each in their own way )dogs can produce a range of pups from excellent to flawed , hound genetics is complex and variable ,
my sable yellow muppet has fathered some stunning pups with a variety of girls (not always with my consent ,what an skp )
so has his brother , the best ones have had working spaniel or wiemarraner mothers
though the grand kids have included a few newfie /wolf genes as well one of those is a black velvet hound big ,smoothe and sensible .
do folk add wolf genes to "working gsd "dogs ?
i like wolf genes .athletic and loyal , messy fur but
full wolf is not a happy house mate in most circumstances but 1/4 wolf adds a bit of something good to hounds .(if you want a big one some are huge ,he is filling the hallway )
both my not quite dogs have been rescue cases ,lots of people dont seem to know how to handle them but if i remember im bilingual in dog and woof both tig and ron fitted in really well considering their backgrounds
some people should never go near hounds
sorry a bit of a hijack from perfect lurcher
speed or stamia or strenth or sensible ,spose you really need all of them ,so a good mother and a good father ,pick the best and raise it well .
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Bodger
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Its all good stuff d pack . Its all common sense and thats whats required in keeping dogs of any description. Its also whats sadly lacking in some quarters of the pedigree dog world. Alas !
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spanky
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its called " the fashion stakes " some prat wants to take his/her dog and make it lok new for the next season.so they mess with the dog and its crud what comes out. to many asses in the upper echelons of the kc unfortunalty ..... in my opinion only
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