Jacob sheep near SE Wales, and Balwen prices, help please

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Louisdog	Jacob sheep near SE Wales, and Balwen prices, help please Hi all Could any of you help with a couple of sheepy questions please, 1) Does anyone know of a breeder of Jacob sheep anywhere in the SE Wales area, i.e. Monmouth/Raglan/Usk/Chepstow etc? 2) What would be a reasonable price to pay for a good quality but unregistered Balwen ewe, born last year? And an older ewe and her companion wether, also unregistered? I have been quoted £100 for each lot and wasn't sure if it was a tad expensive? But then again I haven't bought any sheep for a while! Oh while I am at it, any idea what sort of price a Soay ewe would cost please? Thanks for any help you can give! Cheers Alex
chez	Our young Jacobs' ewes went for £46 each at the market last autumn. Could you contact the breed society and ask about breeders? They do have some links to people, but only those with a website. http://www.jacobsheepsociety.co.uk/ Are you really thinking of Soay's? The only bit of ours we ever saw was their rear ends disappearing over the hedge two fields away ... . That was about twenty years ago, so no idea of current prices.
Louisdog	Thanks Chez, I will take a look at the society page. And Soays ... yeees ... they are soooo cute! Sounds like I may need to raise the fencing a little first though ETA: having second thoughts now mind!
chez	And drop them. They crawl, too . They see fencing as a personal challenge.
Louisdog	Argh!! Maybe I need an aviary to keep them in
chez	I believe they are lovely if you can take the time to tame them - shut them in and hand feed them for a few weeks. But I never managed it. We sold ours on to someone, and one of them escaped and lived on the hill for years
Mutton	We keep Soay. Yes, some of them squeeze under, some of them leap, but we keep them in with ordinary stocknetting with double wire at the top. Ours came to us as tame and used to people, and as long as the grass in the field is reasonably good, and the neighbouring fields are not significantly better, then they have no motivation to go anywhere. If all the grass is terrible, or snow everywhere, then they also don't go anywhere. A few of them each year go visiting one of our other fields or next door. By a few, these days we are retrieving one or two less than every month. Not had any get out for two months now. One wether in particular is the usual culprit. (He is on the abattoir list, but there are a couple above him yet.) We have made a lot of improvements to fences, but if a badger cuts a path under the fence for example, or maybe the wire gets a bit slack, or the ground gets very soggy and a post moves, then they push their heads under to reach something tasty the far side, then push a bit further, then oh, there they are the other side. We get the stray back by feeding sheep nuts to the rest of the flock just by "their" gap - the stray scoots back under, then we sort out the problem with the fence. usually after that the former stray will have a really good go to push through where it used to work, then try their way up and down the fence for maybe half an hour, looking for an alternative, then quit. High jumping is usually only when they are in a panic. Nearly all can jump the height of a piece of stocknetting and then head butt the wire at the top. They come in quite a range of shapes and sizes so if you have a lean, young, long legged fit one it will go rather higher than a laid back portly matron. If you have a ram in one field and a tempting on heat Soay ewe in the next field, especially one who dances and down the fence all morning flirting with the ram, then a stocky ram will try and bash through the fence, and a long legged one will try and jump over. We walk amongst them every day. We also give them a little bit of supplementary feed most of the year - as in half a jug of sugar beet pellets of an evening, just to get them into the handling area regularly. (Half a jug between 31). Nearly all of them will eat from our hands. They all come to call for sheep nuts. With some of them, if I stand still in the field, they will come up and start chewing on the toggle on my fleece or trying to stuff their noses into pockets to make really sure there are no sheep nuts. Two in particular (mother and daughter) leap up like dogs and plant their hooves in the middle of my back or front, then impatiently scrape with one hoof - hurry up, where are the sheep nuts. We do have one ram we bought in from a far less handled flock and he panics and flings himself at the top of fences and gates if you shut him in the handling area. We did start with barbed wire at the top as we put in fences, but it is now all plain wire as we'd rather they got out than seriously injured themselves. We are trying to work on calming him down. He is better than he was. When we first took him on he wouldn't come within 20 feet of us even if the rest were eating sheep nuts at our feet. Over the first year we reached the point where I could put sheep nuts through the gate onto the ground right next to his nose and he doesn't run away, but we are still working on the handling area "thing". He does however come to call for sheep nuts, though it works faster if one of our super-tame pet wethers is there to encourage him. In terms of price. If you are talking registered ewes who are friendly easy to handle, then price range £70 to about £110. Depends a bit on seller, on whether the ewe is a particularly fine specimen, unusual colour, not yet had a lamb or a young experienced mother.
chez	If you have a ram in one field and a tempting on heat Soay ewe in the next field, especially one who dances and down the fence all morning flirting with the ram, then a stocky ram will try and bash through the fence, and a long legged one will try and jump over.

That sounds like the voice of painful experience Smile

, I miss mine.

Mutton

Soay are fun characters. They have different personalities, you can see family resemblances in behaviour, good memories - I am sure from things they've done that they can remember things for at least six months - as in which gate to go through to get to a winter shelter when they haven't been that way in six months.

A couple of them are quite good at undoing knots in baler twine - just because they can. (I tie a water bucket to a fence post so they don't knock it over.)

In terms of both Soay and Balwen in South Wales, contact

http://www.gaerllwyd.co.uk/index.html

Christine Williams has big well behaved flocks.

Mutton

Further thoughts.

I'd recommend minimum group of Soay as three. If you only want one ewe, then the other two would be wethers, or wether + ewe + ram.

If you take them on at 6 or 12 months old, then you need to wait for the wethers to grow to a size worth eating, so if you are breeding the ewe, then the ewe will have offspring for company once the wethers are gone. However, ideally you need to keep one wether back for another year, as you will need him either as a ram companion, if you are not breeding the ewe every year, or as a ewe lamb companion during breeding seasons, assuming you are not breeding the daughter(s) with the father!
If you are separating off the daughters and breeding the mother again, you will really, really need to have either a double fence or hedge, or some way that ram doesn't see the extra ewes. Same goes for ram + wether with ewes elsewhere.
Incidentally, we have noticed that with more than one wether the rams are happier, as they see them as two not on heat ewes, which is more of a flock than one.

Louisdog

Hi Mutton

Thanks very much for your replies, loads of useful info and food for thought.

Your flock sound great.

Christine is not far away from here at all so I shall go and see her sometime and see what she has available.

Will update this thread if I buy any Soays Smile

ETA: I would be looking at getting three ewes I think, and not breeding.

Cheers
Alex

Mutton

You're welcome.

Why not get three wethers if you don't want to breed? It is just with rare breeds I think it a shame to buy breeding stock and not breed them. Just a "thing" I have.
Does also mean you won't get any surprise lambs if there is ever a roving ram in your neighbourhood.

We have three wethers permanently designated as companions due to particularly friendly natures. (One started life with one name and was re-named Softy within a couple of months.)

Louisdog

I am not very keen on wethers as ones I have had in the past have been quite ram-like and inclined to butt, but maybe I was just unlucky.

I might also want to breed them in future so thought ewes would be better.

I guess I need to have a good ponder. And see what's available.

Like the sound of Softy Smile

Cheers
Alex

milkmaid

my husband has told me if i ever look at buying soays ,he knows it's time to get me comitted
a friend brought some as ideal beginners sheep ,they where in the 2 years she had them dispite feeding every day morning and night ,she never got to handle them ,although i had the pleasure Laughing

,although the hebs got better and came to her and where not as skitish the soays never got it ,one escaped and is still runninng around on skye somewhere ,they moved on after the soay ram that was living with the heb ram trapped her in a seperate feild for 3 hours ,her husband fell asleep in front of the telly ,didn't relise she was trapped ,she gave up sheep keeping ,their feet were good though after 2 years of not being trimmed Cool

pretty sheep though i'd make sure you have a tamish flock

my texels and black faces remember things ,they went away to live somewhere else for over a year came back and walked up the croft turned at the gate and stood to be let into the main feild ,in fact when the trailer pulled up we were worried about the road we needn't have been they knew were they were going Very Happy

,they hate a friend of mine because she denched them a few times if she comes for coffee they are gone Laughing

Mutton

,although the hebs got better and came to her and where not as skitish the soays never got it ,

It really is very variable depending on how they've been raised. Please don't judge all Soay by one bad experience.
Our senior ewes came from someone who'd halter trained them and took them to shows. The one ram that came from elsewhere has calmed down but is not as tame as the others.

We can drench and inject ours. A few are wrigglers, or sit down to be difficult, but we can drench and inject those too.

If you are buying Soay, buy from a tame flock - its worth paying a bit more. milkmaid

i'm sure they are not ,i've met some mad hebs that nobody can get near and some really tame ones ,i'm sure the same can be said for soays
i'm afraid i tend to like my nice boring texels , Mutton

I am not very keen on wethers as ones I have had in the past have been quite ram-like and inclined to butt, but maybe I was just unlucky.

All Soay smack heads with each other, including the ewes, just with less welly than the rams.
Some of the wethers when they reach 2 or 3 can be a bit like boisterous teenagers and are bigger and bouncier than the ewes. Then others are not. Softy is actually our biggest wether, but you can wander up to him and scratch his back. He was the most laid back lamb we've ever had. Give him an injection and he just stands there. We've not been smacked by wethers. Do get the occasional firm nudge with a forehead on the back of the leg if you are carrying food and not handing it over. Not hard enough to hurt. More likely to have them sniffing you, so you are goosed by a sudden snuffle in the seat of the pants.
Have been smacked badly by our first ram, who came to us old and was extremely tame and expected sheep nuts on demand. The demand was "whop". We took to carrying a washing up liquid bottle full of water and a squirt between the eyes was enough to see him off. The up side was that if you wanted to catch him you just stood in the field with sheep nuts and he'd charge at you. If you saw him coming you could grab him as he was slow for a Soay. No hurdles needed.

I might also want to breed them in future so thought ewes would be better..

FYI I wouldn't breed a Soay ewe younger than 18 months as they do a lot of growing in the second summer.

However I have been warned not to breed them for the first time if they are older than 2.5. Don't know if all sheep have this tendency, but you will have birth problems and rejected lambs if you breed them older than 2.5 for the first time.

We've done all ours for the first time at 18 months. We've had mostly easy births, no rejections. One small ewe has large singles and we had to pull them out both times. They were properly presented, she just couldn't shift them without us pulling too. As she is getting on we stopped breeding her. One first time mother was fascinated by her lambs but scared as they wobbled towards her and backed off while making "come to me" noises. We picked up the lambs and brought them in from the side rather than head on and she was fine and is a great mother - raised three sets of twins very well.

So you might want to buy ewes that have already lambed if you go for ewes.

Also be aware they are very protective of their lambs. The ewes did share a field with our geese at one point - the geese would chase them a bit, but mostly for show. Once there were lambs the ewes turned on the geese, butted one and broke its wing. I've also seen Soay without lambs chase a terrier out of their field. Louisdog

Just thought I'd post a quick update - went to see Christine Williams today (thanks Mutton! - I said I had been recommended by someone on Downsizer and she was wondering who but she doesn't know anyone called "Mutton" Wink

) and friends are collecting 6 Balwens on Friday Very Happy

I have reserved three lovely Soay wether lambs for collection in the Autumn Shocked

Hubby was with me and I had been told we were just looking Razz

They were lovely though and I think he secretly quite likes them (until he has to catch them from the woods/garden etc having escaped from their paddock lol Wink

I will let you all know how we get on when we get them!

Cheers
Alex Mutton

Just spotted this. Yay.

What colours?

Have fun!

Train them to come to your call and a rattled bucket of sheep nuts. They will generally bring themselves back - even from next door providing they can find "their" gap again. Mutton

PS Christine will have already trained them to come for food.

1. You need to keep them in practice and get them used to your call.
2. with that number of sheep a baked bean can of sheep nuts is sufficient.
3. Be aware that if you overfeed wethers (or rams) on the higher protein sheep nuts then they can get blockages in the urethtra - usually fatal.

So a couple of handfuls of sheepnuts each to make friends is fine. Maybe a bit more than that as a top off in a snowy winter, though hay is far healthier as their main diet. For winter feed you can also do a mixture of well soaked sugar beet with some lamb and ewe coarse mix stirred in. So a protein topping on plenty of fibre. Smile

Louisdog

I am not sure on the nomenclature of the colours - I haven't even got fully to grips with Shetland colours/markings and I have had them 8 years! - but a dark brown, a fawny colour and a sort of chocolate brown with dark brown mohican stripe!

I'll try and upload a pic but I am technically challenged. It's the three lambs you can see at the front of this pic:-

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I have asked Christine what else she might have available, I may end up with 4 or 5, depends what she has. Otherwise the 3 will be great. It's sweet actually, apparently she has these two Soay ewes who are best mates and hang out together all the time, and the lambs are their offspring from this year, and they hang out together too, and Christine said she has been thinking they have to go as a trio because they are such good friends! Cute!

I am hopeful that I can tame them - I have been pretty successful with the Shetlands, they all come rushing over to see me when I go in their field, and some even want scratches and petting.

The Soays will be in a little fenced paddock completely within our land rather than on the boundary so if they do escape they will be in the back garden or on the drive so we should be ok catching them. A Shetland ram lamb did once escape onto the lane and then wander down to next door's garden, it was fun getting him back!

Thanks for the tip re sheepnuts and wethers - I have never kept wethers since we had some back in 2003 for the freezer, so it's good to know. Maybe I can feed them something a bit lower protein instead.

My secret taming tip for sheep is digestive biscuits, someone I bought some ewes off years ago told me that one, and it has stood me in good stead! Only very occasionally though as I guess they are fattening.

Christine recommended exactly what you did, soaked sugar beet and coarse mix. Is the sugar beet mostly fibre then or energy as well? How does it compare with hay/haylage?

Anyway I now have a frustrating wait until they are weaned before I can collect them. I am hoping that I will be able to halter train them, so better start doing some research on that!

Cheers
Alex Mutton

Look very nice. Soay are very social. We have one particularly laid back ewe and if lambs get lost they are happy to follow her until they locate real mother as she doesn't whop other ewe's lambs. Last year she had twins, but you'd sometimes see her with a train of six.
Do also have clusters of lambs and ewes ruminating together. Sometimes the bond is strongest between siblings, sometimes singletons pair up, sometimes it is mother and offspring. Varies. We have twin sisters who are very different. One was clearly glad to be shot of her lambs when we sold them, put a spring in her step. The other and her daughter hang out together a lot.

I'd call the pale one blond mouflon. The one with the whiteish nose at the back is dark mouflon. The third one is hard to tell if it is mouflon or self-coloured (no white tummy). Mouflon is white underparts, dark on top - same as the wild mouflon sheep. Dark mouflon is the most dominant.
http://www.soayandboreraysheep.com/ and look for Soay colours article

No idea on comparative nutrition of sugar beet an haylage or hay, but the label on the sugar beet bag does list what is in it. There is certainly a bit of plant protein.

Halter training - never done it but there is a design out there somewhere for a Soay halter which doesn't have a nose band. I've read they dislike anything across their noses. Soay can be halter trained.

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