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Treacodactyl

Plug-inable hybrid cars

Just looking at the Toyota Prius details and I note it cannot be recharged via the mains, solar or wind turbine etc. This would make it far more expensive for us to run and not a viable option.

So I wonder is it possible to adapt the car in any way to enable this or are there any production cars or viable kits that would enable me to have a rechargeable hybrid car?
tahir

I'm sure there's a firm that turns the Prius into a rechargeable
RichardW

I thought it charged the batts on the over run so at no cost at all?

justme
Treacodactyl

Justme wrote:
I thought it charged the batts on the over run so at no cost at all?


I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but this is basically how I think it works. You have a smallish petrol engine, 1.5l, and an electric motor. A complex computer system decides when to use the electric motor and when to charge it. So I can't tell it that I'm only driving for 10 miles so don't use the petrol engine to recharge the battery as I'll do it from the mains, the car might decide to use the petrol engine to recharge the battery itself.

Thinking about it I'm not even sure if the electric motor is capable of running the car without the petrol engine or, if it is, how long the battery would last.
dougal

There is no plug-in hybrid on the market, nor has there been.

The essence of existing hybrids is that they capture energy that would otherwise be dumped through the brakes.

The *current* (not the original) Prius does however have an interestingly hackable control system.
And it has been done.
Calcars demonstrated that it was possible (though impractical) to make a plug-in hybrid using the Prius and lead-acid batteries.

In the UK, Amberjac have been made agents for the lead developers and have in the last couple of years done, I believe just 9 demonstration/prototype vehicles.
The concept is to replace the standard battery with a much larger (4x? capacity) and higher-tech battery. Nevertheless it adds weight...

However, it does give a range of maybe 20 miles on electric alone at 30 mph max. (The Prius can run without the petrol engine running {much - its needed for brake vacuum, etc} but above 30 mph the petrol engine kicks in).
BUT because the electric is still used to assist, the claim is that one can get over 100mpg for the first 50 miles per day (mains recharging overnight).

This is fine -- BUT -- the batteries are expensive (Conversion nearly 10k), and used like this they have a distinctly limited life - very much less than the life of the standard Prius battery (guaranteed 8 years).
So, factoring in the write-down on the batteries, let alone the cost of the 10k that ain't somewhere else, this is not really cheap motoring.

http://www.calcars.org/

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/67277/toyota_prius_amberjac.html
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Amberjac-Plug-in-Prius.htm
http://www.amberjac-projects.co.uk/home.html
RichardW

You can do that its called stealth mode. Elec only.

Justme
dougal

Add to that, that the above is on level roads.

The petrol-assist is required for going up hills...
Treacodactyl

Justme wrote:
You can do that its called stealth mode. Elec only.


But you can't plug it in.

Thanks dougal, you've confirmed what I've found out. Slightly surprising as it puts the cars on a par with smallish diesels.

It also makes me wonder why it's taking so long to bring out suitable cars. Confused
dougal

And add that Toyota are evaluating a much more minimal tweak - to "top-off" the standard battery from the electricity mains.
Less than a dozen prototypes running. Two years from the technology being in the showrooms (though who knows in exactly what form).
August 2007 story here -
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/209744/toyota_prius.html
A small tweak, but it should help for *fairly* short runs.
Note however that the present Prius *does* need to start and run the petrol engine (for brake vacuum, etc) before it can shut it down and move in pure electric mode.

Regarding a small point on US websites.
The US-market Prius lacks the push-button switch to enable all-electric driving when it might be possible. So the first mod is to add the (standard in Europe) switch... hence talk of "stealth" and "secret" etc...

So, the technology is far from "mature".
And its expensive.
MarkS

tbh with all the batteries and all I've never understood how a prius is any better than an efficient diesel.

Even our ancient audi manages just under 50mpg on short runs. Im sure that smaller cars will do very well. Isnt there a polo 'bluemotion' or something that gets over 80mpg?
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
... Slightly surprising as it puts the cars on a par with smallish diesels.

It also makes me wonder why it's taking so long to bring out suitable cars. Confused


Batteries are expensive for the amount of energy stored. (And the time they last.)

You need loads of batteries (10k worth roughly) to shift a mid-sized *steel* car 20 to 30 miles at 30 mph.
You get that much energy out of half a gallon of liquid fuel.


I think that for someone doing a limited, but consistent amount of lowish speed (city?) driving a plug-in hybrid could be a very good mobility solution. And very atmospherically clean. And give 100/200 mpg. BUT it could need new batteries in three or four years time - which is the bummer.

But an efficient diesel, run on biofuel from wvo, should be a very much more practical option.
You can get a good diesel (aluminium, so light weight and incidentally cunningly aerodynamic) Audi A2 cheaper than a decent current (ie the hackable model) Prius.
And a bought-in home biodiesel plant should be waaay cheaper than the Amberjac conversion.
Remembering the 2,500 litres tax exemption... no contest, I'm afraid.


Thing that surprises me is NOT hearing about Hybrids on city-centre buses, which are forever stopping and starting, just what a hybrid facillitates.
Maybe in a few years with nanotech faster charge (so faster energy absorbing) batteries... they are promised.
dougal

MarkS wrote:
... I've never understood how a prius is any better than an efficient diesel.

Even our ancient audi manages just under 50mpg on short runs. ...


The problem is that you are thinking about fuel based on its *volume*.
Thats easy for selling liquids.
And taxing them.
But diesel, petrol and LPG contain different amounts of energy and carbon per unit of *volume*.

Thats why diesel gets "good mpG" and LPG gets "poor mpG".

Its different if you look at miles per kilo.

Or CO2 emission per mile or km.

It must be at least a year since I was banging on about this... Rolling Eyes Laughing




For their efficiency, modern diesels are cheap.
Its surprising that marrying an efficient small diesel with a hybrid brake-energy-recovery system is proving so challenging. Peugeot/Citroen have said they are working on it, but...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/207600/peugeot_308.html
... maybe next year.
Treacodactyl

MarkS wrote:
Even our ancient audi manages just under 50mpg on short runs. Im sure that smaller cars will do very well. Isnt there a polo 'bluemotion' or something that gets over 80mpg?


Yep, although I'm not keen on the Polo's ride. Confused The Mini Diesel should be more efficient now as has stop/start and regenerative breaking, over 80mpg but at over 15k for something that's basically a 2 + 2 I'm not sure it's worth it.

I should take a look at the new Mini Clubman as it's a similar price but seems to be a genuine 4 seater but it looks too gimmicky. Confused
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
...I'm not keen on the Polo's ride. Confused The Mini Diesel should be more efficient now as has stop/start and regenerative breaking ...

Umm.
The "bluemotion" version of the Polo uses special low-rolling-resistance tyres. As such they give a slightly harsher ride. Such things could be fitted to most cars - the question is whether the public would choose to waste a bit more carbon for a bit more comfort.
It also loses some sound insulation for weight saving. And there are generally applicable tweaks, like the aerodynamic underbody - who is going to pay for something they can't see?
IMHO, its a marketing exercise, not just greenwash, but testing the water, seeing what people will actually pay money for.

The Mini's claim of "regenerative braking" is however basically greenwash. They are charging the ordinary (starting) battery, a bit, from the brakes. Wow. I'm afraid that with the extra weight of the system, I personally would doubt that its actually worthwhile in practice.


Why not check Audi main dealers for an immaculate used A2, buy a comprehensive used-car warranty with it, pocket the cash difference and have a better vehicle?
Treacodactyl

My comments refer to all Polo's, I prefer a firmer and sharper ride. The A2 will have more room in it but I doubt it's a better vehicle for me. If it's so good why isn't it still being made?

Yep, on the Mini the regenerative breaking does just charge the ordinary battery. I don't know if it's just greenwash but with that and a few other tweeks BMW have reduced the official C02 from 118 to 104 g/km which isn't bad and could save a bit if the car tax rates are changed at all.
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
... The A2 will have more room in it but I doubt it's a better vehicle for me. If it's so good why isn't it still being made?

Cos it was a bit too expensively made for Audi to make a profit.

Most folk think the ride is a bit "firm", so you should like that.

Lightweight (insurance is cheap despite all the aluminium), aerodynamic (though one might not guess it), small outside yet reasonably spacious inside, and hyper-efficient overall, its main problem IMHO was that it was slightly ahead of its time.

This might be of interest (thread and site)
http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6454
MarkS

dougal wrote:
MarkS wrote:
... I've never understood how a prius is any better than an efficient diesel.

Even our ancient audi manages just under 50mpg on short runs. ...


The problem is that you are thinking about fuel based on its *volume*.
Thats easy for selling liquids.
And taxing them.
But diesel, petrol and LPG contain different amounts of energy and carbon per unit of *volume*.

Thats why diesel gets "good mpG" and LPG gets "poor mpG".

Its different if you look at miles per kilo.

Or CO2 emission per mile or km.

It must be at least a year since I was banging on about this... Rolling Eyes Laughing


Um, thats not quite what I meant. I was thinking in generally green terms rather than volume of fuel. Although the Prius does run on petrol so thats a fair thing to look at. But when the manufacture and disposal of the batteries is taken into account - along with the not so great petrol use (Reports I've seen dont bear out the claimed economy in real life use) I dont see the appeal other than as an experiment or as in california as a displacement of pollutants in urban centres.

There are several that I see on a regular basis here in ruralish north yorks, and I just fail to see how they better a decent diesel in cost, economy or greenness.

If a small car is in order then the new panda is getting a very good name very quickly. the 1.3 multijet diesel is a variant of the well respected 1.9 used in Fiat, Alfa, Saab, GM and has excellent economy figures. As a plus its available new from 5500. It will be on my list of things to look at when the Audi finally dies.
jema

I have heard a few people say the Prius is pretty marginal environmentally due to the sheer weight balancing out most of the gains Sad
I guess the day of electric cars will only really come when other fuels become so expensive people are willing to accept a car with much more limited range and speed, or hopefully when advances in the tech make them much more genuinely viable.
I do wonder if that day might be surprisingly near, and if the transition might be very rapid. If the Prius is marginally viable now, then surely just another 20% improvement in batteries would make a world of difference?
Treacodactyl

If I decided to go the 2nd hand diesel route I'd look at several other cars before the A2. With the A2, Mini or the Polo I'd still need a 2nd vehicle so space isn't that important.

Out of interest though is it easy to tell if a 2nd hand diesel car has been misfueled? Is it something an AA check would show?
RichardW

What do you mean by miss fueled?
red diesel
cooking oil
petrol

Justme
MarkS

Assuming you mean petrol, then it depends. Dont buy one that isnt running perfectly.

The A2 and the Merc A-class both suffer from serious depreciation (where the prices are not propped up in the dealer network) and high maintenance costs, access is difficult and the labour charges add up fast.
Treacodactyl

By misfueled I mean sticking in petrol into the diesel car. In more modern diesels it may not cause an immediate problem but could cause premature wear in the fuel delivery system that would cost a few thousand to repair.

One of the most appealing things about the Mini is that you get 5 years servicing for 150. Coupled with a real world MPG of around 60-70mpg, car tax of 35 and rather a sporty car does make it quite appealing.
Treacodactyl

jema wrote:
I have heard a few people say the Prius is pretty marginal environmentally due to the sheer weight balancing out most of the gains Sad


Hence my question, to me it only makes sense if you could recharge it. Financial sense if you can use cheap eleccy and green sense if you could charge it from something like a wind turbine.
MarkS

Treacodactyl wrote:
One of the most appealing things about the Mini is that you get 5 years servicing for 150. Coupled with a real world MPG of around 60-70mpg, car tax of 35 and rather a sporty car does make it quite appealing.


Do you know anyone getting that?
Treacodactyl

MarkS wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
One of the most appealing things about the Mini is that you get 5 years servicing for 150. Coupled with a real world MPG of around 60-70mpg, car tax of 35 and rather a sporty car does make it quite appealing.


Do you know anyone getting that?


I don't know anyone with a Mini at all. I'm just thinking about past experience with other cars, I tend to at least get the combined MPG when mostly using motorways and Mini claim 67.3 for that and 60.1 for the urban. Once run in I can't see how it would be much less than 60-70mpg although I'd like to rent one before buying.
MarkS

Ive seen a fair few complaints about mini economy (inc diesels) on motoring forums.
dougal

jema wrote:
I have heard a few people say the Prius is pretty marginal environmentally due to the sheer weight balancing out most of the gains Sad


Sadly "people" talk a load of bull...

Take 3 cars:
A Mini Clubman with 82kg me in the passenger seat
The lightest Toyota Avensis (1.8 petrol)
The Prius

Based on quoted "kerb weight" which means with fuel, etc
Which is heaviest? (the mini 1250 kg + me 82 = 1332kg)
Which is lightest (the prius at 1325kg - the lightest avensis is 1330kg)
---- press "Quote" to reveal the answer !
Treacodactyl

MarkS wrote:
Ive seen a fair few complaints about mini economy (inc diesels) on motoring forums.


Can you point me in the right direction, I've looked at a few places and haven't seen anything worse than other makes. The 1.6D is a PSA lump so it's the same engine as a Peogeot 207 and many other cars. Auto Express seemed to get 66.7mpg in a test. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/211488/mini_cooper_d.html

I know the Mini is sold as a sportier car so perhaps people are just a bit heavier with their right foot?
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
... to me it only makes sense if you could recharge it. Financial sense if you can use cheap eleccy and green sense if you could charge it from something like a wind turbine.

Unfortunately -- ALL -- electric vehicles are bedeviled by the cost, energy density and lifetime of batteries for storing electricity.
(Which is why storing electricity as Hydrogen has an appeal to some.)

However, among electric vehicles, a plug-in hybrid provides most of the short distance benefits of an all-electric vehicle, and the convenience of unlimited range of a traditional petrol vehicle while giving the real-world fuel economy of a hybrid.

Itis getting a reasonable compromise.
Apart from IMHO the cost and lifetime of the 'traction' battery.
The Prius's own battery is fine for the likely life of the vehicle - because its 'managed' by the car's computer to protect it.
However, the aftermarket 'traction' batteries are managed to provide more energy storage (electric range) - which comes at the cost of earlier replacement.
Treacodactyl

dougal wrote:
Sadly "people" talk a load of bull...

Take 3 cars:
A Mini Clubman with 82kg me in the passenger seat
The lightest Toyota Avensis (1.8 petrol)
The Prius

Based on quoted "kerb weight" which means with fuel, etc
Which is heaviest? (the mini 1250 kg + me 82 = 1332kg)
Which is lightest (the prius at 1325kg - the lightest avensis is 1330kg)


Or mislead? Without you in the Mini the Mini is the lightest, the Mini Cooper being lighter still than the Clubman.
dougal

MarkS wrote:
Ive seen a fair few complaints about mini economy (inc diesels) on motoring forums.


Sadly "official test" mpg figures are at best a means of comparison.

In the real world *how* you drive makes a vast difference.
The Prius will give you great benefits *if* you brake early and gently. *Not* if you stamp hard on the brakes.
What is the standard US style?
Another thing to bear in mind is that all the US discussions will unthinkingly be in miles per little US gallon.
So take any US reported "mpg" figure and add on 20% -- so "50 mpg" (US) equates pretty damn closely to "60 mpg" (UK) ...
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
dougal wrote:
Sadly "people" talk a load of bull...

Take 3 cars:
A Mini Clubman with 82kg me in the passenger seat
The lightest Toyota Avensis (1.8 petrol)
The Prius

Based on quoted "kerb weight" which means with fuel, etc
Which is heaviest? (the mini 1250 kg + me 82 = 1332kg)
Which is lightest (the prius at 1325kg - the lightest avensis is 1330kg)


Or mislead? Without you in the Mini the Mini is the lightest, the Mini Cooper being lighter still than the Clubman.


Not to mislead at all.
Those are factual, not opinion.

http://www.donnellygroup.co.uk/newmodels/aven3.pdf
http://www.toyota.co.uk/vs2/pdf/PS2_63_spec.pdf
http://www.newswheel.com/newswheel/stories/bmw-wheels-out-mini-clubman.htm




The point is that the weights happen to be that close, and the usable space inside the minis (even the number of doors) simply isn't comparable.
While the Prius and Avensis aren't vastly different in size.

BTW, the A2 had a lot of different versions and trims, typically they seem to come out between 900 and 1020 kg (the lightest figure I've seen is just 825 kg). Against 1175 ish for the "lighter still" ordinary mini! So an A2 could carry at least three passengers of my weight, and still be just about the same weight as the Clubman...
Treacodactyl

dougal wrote:
Not to mislead at all.
Those are factual, not opinion.


I'm not disagreeing with the facts, just the way you wrote them. A quick scan makes you think the weights include you in each example when you're only in one. That's how I was taught to mislead anyway. Basically if the cars are in the *same* state then the mini is the lightest. Yes it has less room but if you're hardly going to use it then it's not relevant. Is the weight actually that relevant if you have the mpg and CO2 numbers?

Personally I'm concerned with the crash worthiness of the Mini compared to something like the Prius but alas that info isn't available.
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
Is the weight actually that relevant if you have the mpg and CO2 numbers?

Personally I'm concerned with the crash worthiness of the Mini compared to something like the Prius but alas that info isn't available.

IMHO its extremely relevant to the real world economy, rather than the artificial, and limited conditions that produce the fuel and carbon numbers.

Weight has to do with any acceleration (ie inc braking and cornering).
Its not highly relevant to steady speed cruising on a level motorway, but just about everything else, including how much energy it costs to get the thing up a hill.
The light weight is one reason the A2 gives such good real world figures.

Crash test info not available?
Did you look very hard? Very Happy
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/audi_a2_2002/111.aspx
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/bmw_mini_2007/288.aspx
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/toyota_prius_2004/193.aspx

BTW, note the test weights Pius 1300, the 2-door mini 1140 and the A2 just 910.
To try and put that in perspective a famously lightweight Lotus Elise is 860kg, and an MX-5 is about 1200 kg these days. The A2 is *light*.
A 2003 3-door Audi A3, BTW is 1360 kg, 60 kg heavier than that "heavyweight" the Prius! http://www.euroncap.com/tests/audi_a3_2003/176.aspx
dougal

Updates/revisions/etc....

Amberjac have a different (crap) website for their Plug-in Prius
http://www.amberjacprojects.com/ (no hyphen)

Its hard to tell if its ever been updated. (Like the only "news" is the June 05 announcement that they have signed up...)
But it must be where I got the idea that they had 'done' 9 vehicles.
Shame the battery link is broken. And the video doesn't load, and the spec panel is empty... Shame.



The non-plug-in Peugeot hybrid *diesel*. "Hybride" in French!
News dated 23 November 2007
Claimed ***74g*** of CO2/km which is spectacularly efficient.
And its fine with biodiesel.
But it won't be in the UK before 2010.
And no price yet... natch Very Happy
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/212847/news_in_brief.html
In Japan, they drive on the left (like us), so we can, theoretically, get neat stuff sooner...
Treacodactyl

dougal wrote:
Crash test info not available?
Did you look very hard? Very Happy


Yes, and the links don't seem to mention anything about a rear end shunt, something very common on motorways and something of concern in a shorter car.

I am also able to look up technical details on the cars myself so I do understand the differences between various cars. It's not much use to just quote one set of numbers such as the weight when other factors such as the engine size are different.
dougal

Treacodactyl wrote:
... Personally I'm concerned with the crash worthiness of the Mini compared to something like the Prius but alas that info isn't available.

Treacodactyl wrote:
... the links don't seem to mention anything about a rear end shunt ..

The Royal Soc for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) wrote:
Car safety is now an important issue that many people consider when buying a new car. There are crash test standards defined in legislation, which dictates the minimum performance in a crash that cars have to pass to be approved for use in the UK. The results are not released, however, and therefore this does not tell the public about relative performances of vehicles in crash scenarios.

The European New Car Assessment Program (EuroNCAP) ratings provide car buyers with a good indication of which cars give the best protection for drivers, pedestrians and children. The information is impartial and easy to understand. The tests are sponsored by several of the larger transport departments of governments across Europe and companies who have an interest in vehicle safety, car manufacturers who frequently use the results of the tests in advertising literature also support the project

It would be impossible to test a car for every circumstance in which a crash may occur so instead the tests simulate a wide range of common accidents as well as accidents which result in high fatality rates. A good performance in the EuroNCAP tests is an accurate indication of which cars offer best protection in a collision.
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/motorvehicles/euro_ncap.htm

Government testing is performed merely to confirm that the vehicle meets the minimum standards required by law.
Manufacturer's testing is proprietary, whether its for corrosion, durability or performance. (Yes that's right, data is NOT published as to 70mph fuel economy.)
But this isn't different for different cars, hybrid or otherwise.



Quote:
It's not much use to just quote one set of numbers such as the weight when other factors such as the engine size are different.
This thread started regarding the non-availability, as yet, of plug-in hybrids, and a discussion of viable alternatives that are actually, or soon to be, available.

In that context, it was suggested that the Prius was unusually heavy.
Now weight is, as I have explained, very important to real-life fuel efficiency.
Hence the environmental advice not to store things unnecessarily in your car, adding to its weight.
All extra weight costs you extra fuel.

I've tried to show factually that the Prius is *not* unusually heavy.
Its lighter than an Audi A3 and all the Toyota Avensis range, for example.
Its only slightly heavier than the much smaller Mini Clubman.
(The difference is about 75kg in 1300kg - that's less than 6%, which is "slightly" in my eyes.)

So, while weight is important to fuel efficiency, the Prius is not unusually heavy.
But we could have added that the (Amberjac-style) plug-in conversion adds another 100 kg or so.

And while on the subject of weight, it was pointed out that the Audi A2 achieves some of its extraordinary fuel efficiency from its spectacularly light weight. (The A2 is about 25% lighter than the A3.)

Weight is not the be-all and end-all of fuel efficiency -- but it is one *very* important factor.
And its quantifiable.
And its public.

The cubic capacity of an engine is not however anything other than the broadest of indicators.
The presence or absence of a turbocharger can make a radical difference to the performance and/or the efficiency of similar sized engines.
As can the valving and injection arrangements and the number of cylinders. The VAG 1.4 litre diesel was designed as a 3-cylinder (like the Honda Insight's 1 litre petrol engine) specifically for fuel efficiency reasons.


Weight is indeed but one factor influencing the energy needed to propel the vehicle. Aerodynamics is another. Tyre rolling resistance a third. Mechanical losses (such as in the drive train {gearbox, etc}, and anciliaries (like engine cooling, fuel pumping and aircon) also soak up some energy.
The engine's fuel efficiency then determines how much fuel must be used to provide for the total of all those demands.
It works that way round, not starting from the engine's cc.

The extent to which a vehicle's weight impacts its fuel efficiency depends on the driving conditions and how its driven. It will have a disproportionately large impact in urban or hilly areas. If the car is driven 'harder', a lighter car will have a smaller increase in fuel consumption.
Similarly, it has been pointed out that a hybrid will show better against the competition in undulating and urban driving, but that (because of the limited rate that today's batteries can soak up energy), a hybrid will respond disproportionately well (in efficiency terms) to gentle driving, and disproportionately badly, specifically, to hard braking.
A hybrid provides no advantage whatsoever in steady-speed, straight and level motorway cruising - and that isn't the natural environment for a pure electric "EV" either.
The hacking of the Prius control does, however, provide a (battery capacity limited) boost for a short-ish distance of whatever driving - even on motorways.

My personal opinion is (sadly) that, even at current fuel prices, the cost of the Amberjac batteries, and their inevitably limited life, isn't financially justified. (I know not of independent evaluation of any environmental concerns regarding the Amberjac batteries themselves.)
However, environmentally there are considerable differences among broadly 'conventional' vehicles.
Treacodactyl

So you agree there's no public data for how the Mini would survive in a rear end shunt?
dougal

I don't believe there is any public, independent, general and comparable data for any other crash tests for European-market vehicles than the the EuroNCAP ones.

It would be a mistake to think that any real world accident would equate to any particular standard test conditions.
The EuroNCAP tests aim to provide some means of comparison. -- But principally between *similarly-classified* cars. So classification counts too...
The Type Approval tests relate to particular things happening or not, such as the fuel tank splitting, rather than being comparative.

Safety standards specify all sorts of details. Like the breakdown voltage for electrical insulation on kettles being above a given threshold.
They are tested at that threshold voltage.
It ain't reasonable to expect to find tables listing the voltages at which different kettles' insulation fails.

Similarly, you will not find comparative tables listing the survivable impact speeds (separately for front and rear seat passengers, and for children) when impacted squarely from behind and from different angles by standardised 'cars', vans and articulated trucks...
The data, as such doesn't exist.

You seem to have a particular concern specifically about rear impacts.
My elderly mother has a phobia about being trapped underwater in a car. There doesn't seem to be any comparative independent data about ease of underwater escape from different vehicles underwater - and yet, as she points out, "people do drown in cars"...

And I don't see the relevance to hybrids... or to comparisons between hybrids and 'conventionally' powered vehicles.
Treacodactyl

dougal wrote:
You seem to have a particular concern specifically about rear impacts.
My elderly mother has a phobia about being trapped underwater in a car. There doesn't seem to be any comparative independent data about ease of underwater escape from different vehicles underwater - and yet, as she points out, "people do drown in cars"...

And I don't see the relevance to hybrids... or to comparisons between hybrids and 'conventionally' powered vehicles.


I have a concern because the Mini is shorter than most cars, by quite a bit. I've done a fair bit of motorway driving and plan to do a fair bit more and I've seen with my own eyes plenty of crashes where the car has been shunted from behind placing the boot into the rear seat area. So it's certainly not a phobia but a concern based on real experience.

I wonder how the Mini would compare to a longer car and as I was contemplating the Prius it's obvious to wonder how they would compare, my initial guess would be the Prius would be better but who knows?
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