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Tavascarow

The moneyless manifesto by Mark Boyle.

Free to read online, Mark Boyles new book of the freeconomy.
robkb

Ironically, you can also buy it... Wink

Thanks for the linky.
paul1963

Thanks Tav I was going to get it from my library but they don't have it Very Happy
baldybloke

Toying with adding this to my library.
gil

Thanks Tav - I've bookmarked it.
Azura Skye

link doesn't work for me.. I'll search for it. He writes for permaculture magazine, doesn't he?
Tavascarow

link doesn't work for me.. I'll search for it. He writes for permaculture magazine, doesn't he?

Try again.
I think I've fixed it.
Treacodactyl

link doesn't work for me.. I'll search for it. He writes for permaculture magazine, doesn't he?

Try again.
I think I've fixed it.

I think it maybe the site, sometimes it loads other times I have to try a couple of times.

I don't suppose there's a single page summary is there?
wildfoodie

ha! there was a facebook post about it this morning, to which I nearly wrote a smart asred reply about was it free... Hairyloon

OK, so how does working for the Freeconomy stand in respect of things like Working Tax Credit? Penny Outskirts

Just scanned through it, and whilst it's admirable, in this country, unless you own your own house/dwelling, without a mortgage, you can't do it. Ty Gwyn

Just another author making money on selling a dream,

They dont all come true.
AnnaD

I liked his other book, so I'll give this one a go. Thanks for the link! oldish chris

Just another author making money on selling a dream,

They dont all come true. I think that you are being over-cynical, there are other motivations, e.g. ego, wanting to be loved.

I've book-marked the link, I'll get round to it sometime.
robkb

Just another author making money on selling a dream,

Or not, if you can read it free online Wink
marigold

Just scanned through it, and whilst it's admirable, in this country, unless you own your own house/dwelling, without a mortgage, you can't do it.

You also need to be fit and healthy to do it.
Hairyloon

I thought it looked quite promising... untill I noticed that it seems to be linked to the Occupy Movement. Azura Skye

We grown-ups strangely believe that money provides for us when it is actually Nature (which includes humans) that does so. That we must rely on money is simply another delusion, given power only by the fact that we collectively agree to believe in it.

It looks interesting, I find it hard to read online though.
I'd like to know what else he has to say on the matter.

But I feel it may be a bit like Jay Griffiths' 'Pip Pip' - about time.. about the construct of time. she says the calendar is a load of nonsense based on nothing that reflects our true lives. But so what? we all have to live with a 24 hour clock, a 12 month calendar; if we want to be part of society at all. Still, interesting reading.
Tavascarow

I've read a bit about Mark & seen a few video interviews & he's a very interesting guy.
As to whether the freeconomy could work, I doubt we will ever know.
For it to work the whole economy would have to shift.
It can't work alongside a monetary system.

I've spent a good number of years trying to minimise my impact on the environment & consequently survive on very little money, but after seeing the amount of money spent on my father recently from the tax payers coffers, I'm questioning whether I shouldn't be trying to contribute more.

Should be an interesting read regardless.
nickofthewoods

Thank you Chez

II've spent a good number of years trying to minimise my impact on the environment & consequently survive on very little money, but after seeing the amount of money spent on my father recently from the tax payers coffers, I'm questioning whether I shouldn't be trying to contribute more.

That's the interesting thing about it, isn't it? And it's something that I've been thinking about, too - I have a small but significant amount of guilt about the amount of resources we are taking up as a family.

I do think that 'opting out' of society completely only works for society as a whole if the opter-outers don't then opt back in when they need medical care or the dole or whatever. And ethically, as a parent for example, you'd be a pretty yukky person if you let your kid die because you didn't want to use the NHS because you'd 'opted out' yourself.

It works in the microcosm. But it doesn't work if everyone does it. We need some sort of social structure and the glue than makes resources transferable easily is money. You can't do without it completely - IIRC it was invented to make taxation easier. And taxation is the thing that keeps all those nice civilised things like roads and doctors and schools going.
Katieowl

Moneyless Man was interesting so I'll give this a go. (Not good at reading online though!) I also liked the how I lived a year on a pound a day which was published about the same time, and oddly enough by someone living geographically quite close to Mark Boyle. They made a good comparison pair, and I think she had more fun TBH Smile

Anyone who really wants some ideas about living on next to nothing may enjoy this too Linky and there's a bit of other stuff by the same author online Smile

Kate
Hairyloon

And taxation is the thing that keeps all those nice civilised things like roads and doctors and schools going.
There is evidence of roads going back at least as far as the Bronze Age. Were they built on taxes?
sally_in_wales

And taxation is the thing that keeps all those nice civilised things like roads and doctors and schools going.
There is evidence of roads going back at least as far as the Bronze Age. Were they built on taxes?

Whilst we probably can't say for certain whether taxes were involved, most prehistoric road networks are likely to be the result of/associated with sites of trade, religion or other expressions of localised power and control. So, as such, they almost certainly were't the result of random altruistic 'nice day, think I'll build a road to help my fellow man' type thinking
Treacodactyl

I have removed two posts as they contained personal comments. Please do not make any personal attack but refer a post to a moderator. joanne

I'm not entirely sure my post did contain personal comments - I certainly pointed out a behaviour pattern - that's not something personal but the behaviour is frankly disgusting and making this forum unpleasant to be in and you didn't pull the one that prompted the comment in the first place - you could have just removed the offending sentence without deleting the whole lot marigold

I'm not entirely sure my post did contain personal comments - I certainly pointed out a behaviour pattern - that's not something personal but the behaviour is frankly disgusting and making this forum unpleasant to be in

Hear hear.
Andrea

It's a far more thoughtful, and thought provoking book than The Moneyless Man. Well worth reading. Hairyloon

I'm not entirely sure my post did contain personal comments - I certainly pointed out a behaviour pattern - that's not something personal but the behaviour is frankly disgusting and making this forum unpleasant to be in

Hear hear.
Is this because I criticised the Jimmy Saville documentary, questioned the idiot petition or because I know that a trustworthy dog can be trusted with sheep?

Or is there something else I have forgotten about?
mark

And taxation is the thing that keeps all those nice civilised things like roads and doctors and schools going.
There is evidence of roads going back at least as far as the Bronze Age. Were they built on taxes?

No but many of them were built by slavery or forced labour ..
before rulers and powerful people could take money and use it to to pay people to do things they wanted done
they just compelled people to work

I actually think money was a pretty cool invention .. using one thing to represent the value of another to make transactions easier..

a similar step forward to the representative an symbolic value of numbers and writing.
Some so called no money systems simply substitute another form of currency or recording credit debit so are essentially the same thing -

that doesn't mean we shouldn't use barter or alternative systems. variety or is the spice of life - but to turn your back on money can actually make for some very unsustainable living patterns.
Hairyloon

There is evidence of roads going back at least as far as the Bronze Age. Were they built on taxes?

No but many of them were built by slavery or forced labour ..
Entirely possible, but where is the evidence?
Quote:
before rulers and powerful people could take money and use it to to pay people to do things they wanted done
they just compelled people to work

They may have done so with nothing more than persuasive argument.
sally_in_wales

Slavery is well evidenced in the archaeological and documentary record by the Iron Age in Britain, earlier, things are complicated by it being pre- written records, but the suggestion is fairly strong in the archaeological record that slavery is being practiced from earlier dates.

One example from the Iron age for you http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/2369/
mark

Slavery is well evidenced in the archaeological and documentary record by the Iron Age in Britain, earlier, things are complicated by it being pre- written records, but the suggestion is fairly strong in the archaeological record that slavery is being practiced from earlier dates.

One example from the Iron age for you http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/2369/

Certainly the Celts were a society that used slaves extensively.
By the middle ages the Celtic areas still seem to have more slaves than anywhere else in europe.

It may be that was linked to the the fact that they didn't have currency till late on though they did use symbolic objects like axeheads like money - so intertribal warefare and taking captives would provide a useful workforce for tribal leaders.
Hairyloon

Slavery is well evidenced in the archaeological and documentary record by the Iron Age in Britain, earlier, things are complicated by it being pre- written records, but the suggestion is fairly strong in the archaeological record that slavery is being practiced from earlier dates.
Slavery covers a whole spectrum of things though doesn't it?
From the slave that is considered a lower form of life and is entirely expendable, for example like the jews in Nazi Germany, to more civilised places like Ancient Greece, where slaves were protected by law and had to be properly treated.

But either way, does it change the basic economics of the task?
Even if your slaves are entirely expendable and you work them until they drop, then they still have a cost associated with them.
I would think that, especially in the bronze age when humans were scarce, it is more cost effective to keep a slave fed and working than to work it to death and go get a new one.

In a society without money, what is the fundamental difference beween a slave who you don't have to pay because he is a slave, and a worker who you don't have to pay because there is no concept of payment?
NorthernMonkeyGirl



In a society without money, what is the fundamental difference beween a slave who you don't have to pay because he is a slave, and a worker who you don't have to pay because there is no concept of payment?

A slave implies someone who hadn't "signed up" for this; a worker implies some level of choice...? Maybe...?

I've skimmed a couple of chapters of the book.

He can call me back once the land reforms go through and he has convinced all the factories and businesses to just...stop. Rolling Eyes
Hairyloon

In a society without money, what is the fundamental difference beween a slave who you don't have to pay because he is a slave, and a worker who you don't have to pay because there is no concept of payment?

A slave implies someone who hadn't "signed up" for this; a worker implies some level of choice...? Maybe...?
Morally, yes there is a clear difference, but I am not seeing an economic one.

But consider also the poor mill workers in Victorian England. Many of them did not have a choice about going to work at the mill what actually distinguishes them from slaves?
Or the sweat shops in the third world... are they any less slaves because we have the country in shackles instead of the individual?
mark

Even in Athenian society which gave legal rights of protection to slaves - slaves were still abused badly.
The reason is that slaves had no right to represent themselves in court. So they could not clam their legal rights.
However Greeks could still use the fact spartans abused their slaves to vilify them and justify war.

Slaves were bought and sold so exited in societies were there was concept of payment - and a slave cost you.
You had to pay often around half a years salary for a slave!

The difference is the slaves captor got the money not the slave himself..

The main point that in earlier societies what we would call public works were generally achieved by forced labour of some sort..

As society and the use of money and trade and commerce develop forced labour for public works is replaced by taxation - and then using payed workers!

In earlier times and in many places today pay has been so low as to be indistinguishable for slavery - but it has allowed unionisation and collective action by paid workers.
NorthernMonkeyGirl

Mark, I think your sig is particularly relevant here! Laughing toggle

Quote:
But consider also the poor mill workers in Victorian England. Many of them did not have a choice about going to work at the mill what actually distinguishes them from slaves?


the middle passage would be a start. but you're a bit out of the timeline ehre. britain had abolished slavery before the victorian period. the worst of the deprivation caused by industrialisation was over by this time as well, standards of living for a lot had improved. the victorian era could be described as the time which was politically dominated by liberalism and a reforming ethos, misplaced at times, but with interesting intentions.
Hairyloon

Quote:
But consider also the poor mill workers in Victorian England. Many of them did not have a choice about going to work at the mill what actually distinguishes them from slaves?


the middle passage would be a start. but you're a bit out of the timeline ehre. britain had abolished slavery before the victorian period. the worst of the deprivation caused by industrialisation was over by this time as well, standards of living for a lot had improved. the victorian era could be described as the time which was politically dominated by liberalism and a reforming ethos, misplaced at times, but with interesting intentions.
Maybe the Welsh slate miners would have been a better example.
toggle

ok, then you could tell me exactly what was comparable about thier situation to slavery? did they endure anything equivalent to the middle passage? were they beaten, sometimes to death and summary exectution as personal and collective punishment? did they endure the regular seperation of families as slaves were bought and sold many miles away? did the women endure rape on a regular basis? did they face anyhting like the mortality rates in jamaica (1/3 of imported slaves would be dead within 3 years of arrival)?

There are some meaningful comparisons that can be made. however the anti slavery campaign's lack of concen for the industrial abuses back home caused some considerable level of irritation to social and political reformers that some were hardly backwards in experssing. but the levels and scale of abuse faced by slaves was of a different order of magnitude.

there are possibilities that the treatment of some portions of the british armed forces could be a meaningful comparison, although i'm not enough of a military historian of the period in order to detail. press gngs for example.

but generally there are some comparisons that can be made, that tend to ignore other aspects of the picture in order to claim sameness.
Hairyloon

ok, then you could tell me exactly what was comparable about thier situation to slavery? did they endure anything equivalent to the middle passage? were they beaten, sometimes to death and summary exectution as personal and collective punishment? did they endure the regular seperation of families as slaves were bought and sold many miles away? did the women endure rape on a regular basis? did they face anyhting like the mortality rates in jamaica (1/3 of imported slaves would be dead within 3 years of arrival)?
These may be some of the worse things that happened to slaves, but I don't consider them to be the defining characteristics of slavery... if they are, then I can guarantee that they did not practice it during the bronze age.
But no. I think NMG got it right: what defines a slave is the question of choice.
Tavascarow

Buy nothing day, 24th November. Nick

Buy nothing day, 24th November.

Works for me.

Not just because it's number one son's sixteenth birthday. No siree, Bob.
marigold

I probably have three or four buy-nothing days every week Smile . Nell Merionwen

I probably have three or four buy-nothing days every week Smile .

Me too Smile
Chez

I probably have three or four buy-nothing days every week Smile .

I thought that Smile
baldybloke

Currently about 80 pages into the Moneyless Manifesto and enjoying the read so far. Yes there are problems with living without money which he counters to some degree. My concerns regard the funding of healthcare, education, pensions, utilities etc. These need to be funded somehow.
Living his lifestyle is all very well when you are young and fancy free. A totally different prospect if you have disabilities or cannot fend for yourself.
Chez

My concerns regard the funding of healthcare, education, pensions, utilities etc. These need to be funded somehow.
Living his lifestyle is all very well when you are young and fancy free. A totally different prospect if you have disabilities or cannot fend for yourself.

Absolutely. It's a very selfish way to live, really - a completely 'I'm alright Jack' mentality. I'm not saying I am a rampant consumer; but those things are all very necessary and it's not possible to fund, say, medical research, with an economy based on rabbit carcasses.
Hairyloon

My concerns regard the funding of healthcare, education, pensions, utilities etc.
Where is the cost?
Other than paying the wages of the doctors, nurses, technicians, miners, etc?
In a cashless economy, their "wages" would presumably be dealt with in another manner.
Nick

My concerns regard the funding of healthcare, education, pensions, utilities etc.
Where is the cost?
Other than paying the wages of the doctors, nurses, technicians, miners, etc?
In a cashless economy, their "wages" would presumably be dealt with in another manner.

Lots of stuff in those industries comes from research, paid for people looking for a profit. Without cash, (or some transferable and accumulatable currency), this will be harder, but not impossible to perform.
john of wessex

If I try to think about it logically..........

We have about 3 million people effectivley ignored by the economy - the unemployed, and a large number in low paid unrewarding work.

If even a large number of people take the 'moneyless' option, he net effect is likley to be nil given the number of unemployd or underpaid. Indeed they may cost the public purse less as they wont be claiming benefits.

They will still need medical care, pensions etc but as many people are not able to contribute to these anyway, the costs are not going to be greater than they are now
Behemoth

Our entire civilisation is unsustainable, and that includes our methods of producing healthcare and contraception. Take one dialysis machine, syringe or catheter, examine the raw materials and production processes involved, and you suddenly see a global industrial system unfold. People often ask me “but can we not just have industrialised healthcare and abandon other, more superfluous industrialised products?” No. Such an understanding is fantastical, ludicrous. If you want high tech healthcare, you have to accept the spectrum of industrialised goods. To make just one syringe you need someone working on an oil rig. But an oil rig would be unfeasible if society was only demanding syringes and a few other healthcare products; it only becomes feasible when we want billions of litres of oil and tonnes of plastic, used for all sorts of journeys and useless (often harmful) stuff, every day. Not only that. Specialised workers have to have some way to get to their place of work (cars, trains, buses), and the software and hardware to make them, which require yet more factories. These factories need quarries and parts that are produced in yet more factories requiring even more parts which need further factories and quarries. You can easily see where this leads.

We are trapped in linearity. Not part of any bigger system, we must always go forward, and at the end point there is nothing. We can never come back in, and so the finishing line terrifies us. We are so removed from understanding ourselves as rotable, decayable, decomposable beings that the thought of becoming one repulses us. We deny death, deny ageing, deny degeneration. We must be young and beautiful forever. And modern medicine, of course, is the epitome of this. Life must be prolonged at all costs – and at the cost of all life.
Treacodactyl

My concerns regard the funding of healthcare, education, pensions, utilities etc. These need to be funded somehow.
Living his lifestyle is all very well when you are young and fancy free. A totally different prospect if you have disabilities or cannot fend for yourself.

Absolutely. It's a very selfish way to live, really - a completely 'I'm alright Jack' mentality. I'm not saying I am a rampant consumer; but those things are all very necessary and it's not possible to fund, say, medical research, with an economy based on rabbit carcasses.

Isn't that similar to our current lifestyles? I don't see many people choosing a job, home, number of children etc because that's what's best for society rather than something they want to do.

I tend to think there will just be a different set of problems and many of them may just be because I don't understand the ideas being put forward sufficiently.
Chez

Yeah, well he can bog right off. I bet he wouldn't be turning down modern medicine if he or his family needed it. That bit you've just quoted is pretentious wank.

ETA: that was in response to Behemoth's quote.
Behemoth

Yeah, well he can bog right off. I bet he wouldn't be turning down modern medicine if he or his family needed it. That bit you've just quoted is pretentious wank.

Strange you mention that, he provides a delightful anecdote about how he contracted a minor infection after having the snip. He cured himself with sage tea and by shagging a friend.
Chez

Yeah, well he can bog right off. I bet he wouldn't be turning down modern medicine if he or his family needed it. That bit you've just quoted is pretentious wank.

Strange you mention that, he provides a delightful anecdote about how he contracted a minor infection after having the snip. He cured himself with sage tea and by shagging a friend.

Good-oh. I bet he didn't give himself the snip, without the benefit of sterilized scalpels, though. Tosser.
Behemoth

Apparently bikes are OK, along with rubber tyres. They're made out of nettles and beard trimmings. Chez

It's all very well playing at living in a pre-industrialised society. And I am thoroughly on board with sustainability. But when push comes to shove, there's only room for a certain number of people to live outside society before it implodes. Like vaccination. Behemoth

"Take just one example: the myth that antibiotics and vaccines saved us all from succumbing to such miserable diseases such as measles. This simple tale, designed to celebrate and exemplify the birth of modern medicine, digested and accepted by even the most ‘radical’ of us – is simply untrue. According to Ivan Illich, “the combined death rate from scarlet fever, diphtheria, whooping cough, and measles among children up to fifteen shows that nearly 90 percent of the total decline in mortality between 1860 and 1965 had occurred before the introduction of antibiotics and widespread immunisation.”(258) So how have we all come to believe the opposite?"

Do we? I thought it was mainly due to improved sanitation and water treatment alongside improved diet, living conditions and basic healthcare. I suppose an epidemic would be just bad luck.
Chez

I'm pretty sure vaccination helped quite a bit. In the eradication of smallpox for example. I'm going to have a nice soothing cup of tea and a lie down now. Jamanda

It's done pretty well with polio too. Rolling Eyes baldybloke

Anyone reading this book will find some inspiration from it but will also be able to pick holes in many of his ideas. I admire the fact that he has been able to live for so long without money. It shows strong willpower and a resolve to challenge the norm. I suppose, in many ways, it could be viewed as an example in extreme downsizing.
In fairness he isn't saying that everyone should give it a go. Everyone has different values. The message is more about things to be considered if anyone wants to. It questions our consumer and materialistic lifestyles and offers options should we wish to embrace them. Personally I have no problem with that.
Chez

baldybloke wrote:

In fairness he isn't saying that everyone should give it a go. Everyone has different values. The message is more about things to be considered if anyone wants to. It questions our consumer and materialistic lifestyles and offers options should we wish to embrace them. Personally I have no problem with that.


I don't either, really - any book that puts forward these things is going to be from a whole hog point of view. And there is definitely food for thought in there. I'm just feeling a bit grumpy at the moment Smile
Andrea

The message is more about things to be considered if anyone wants to. It questions our consumer and materialistic lifestyles and offers options should we wish to embrace them. Personally I have no problem with that.


It's given me a huge amount to think about. I read it as soon as it was released, and still haven't finished processing.
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