Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption
 


       Downsizer Forum Index -> Livestock and Pets
runtley

URGENT: lamb help.

I would be grateful for some advice.

I have 2 x 5-day old ram lambs, which need to be castrated by Saturday at the latest. I would like to keep them for more than 4 months and it is not viable to separate them from the related ewes, or each other. However, as this process is utterly unpleasant I wonder if anyone is aware of any pain relief I can give them.

I have tried asking the vet, but they have not phoned back with an answer.

As time is running out would it be utterly ignorant to suggest Calpol?

Thanks.
Cathryn

Next time forget the emotional stuff and do it straight away. Much kinder all round.

You will have to ring the vet again.

I'm sorry, I sound harsh. Are you intending to eat them? Time, in theory ran out 24 hours after birth.
Marionb

Do you have a farmer nearby who will do it for you? It will be uncomfortable for a while but they soon forget about it. However dont do it yourself unless you know how to do it as if its not done properly it will ultimately kill the lamb. Calpol will do no good whatsoever as pain relief.
runtley

Ah, this is where I let myself down further with regards being emotional. The rams are destined for the freezer, but one lamb - runtley, is the skinny one of 4 and being bottle fed. I am not keen to send him to slaughter until he has had some life.

We have only ever had pigs before. We inherited 3 ewes, who have had lots of lambs and now we are fire fighting.
Marionb

Whereabouts are you?
Cathryn

Take Marions advice. Discreetly. Wink
runtley

Thank you. I can call a local sheep farmer (even though he insists that if we follow his instructions it is not difficult), but the issue of pain remains.
runtley

We are in mid Somerset.
kirstyfern

You can do them legally up to 7 days old.
Forget pain relief, a drink of mums milk is good enough!
I still get help as I am not confident - call the farmer.
If you are not happy looking after the ewes and lambs ask for help or rehome them, much kinder than being negligent through ignorance IMO
Pel

Only posting to say, that if you have a runt, then adding a bit extra milk to it is fine (assuming you can outweigh the cost of the lamlac), nothing to do with emotion. Castrating them should always be done in the first 24hours (if possible), same as tail ringing and most people I know also tag as well then (or at least on release to the field).
The only thing i notice when ram lambs have had the bits ringed is they do a funny little dance (some bleat), run over to mum and have a suck and then go back to being a normal little lamb.


I was just wondering to the sheep keepers when is the latest you are allowed to tag your lambs, is it just before they go off to slaughter (like pigs) or sooner, only wondering as I've been taught do it before they are let out into the field around 24-48 hours old.
Nicky cigreen

assuming you are using the rings, the pain issue is really not that bad.. really they are uncomfortable for a very short while. and you dont really want to bottle rear an intact ram
Camile

Hello,

If they are only 5 days old, that means the ram would serve your ewes from mid-October ..

To get a good size lamb you would kill them in August .. so shouldn't have any problems.

We didn't castrate the lambs for the last 3 years and never got caught, they stayed with the ewes all their life.

That's one way of doing it. Works for me, and lamb testis are a delicacy !

Camile
runtley

Thanks. Farmer is coming tomorrow morning (with no pain relief). My concerns started after stumbling across the 2008 FAWC report condeming the act on grounds of cruelty. For our ram lambs it is a toss up between castration or earlier death, I know which I would prefer.

Pel - outdoor lambs born on the holding must be identified within 9 mths or before movement, whichever is first. Pigs are so much easier!

Thanks for the advice.
Cathryn

I couldn't keep pigs for emotional reasons, too easy to get attached to something so intelligent so I had no right to be sniffy with you.
runtley

Camile - having not kept sheep before I find the idea of killing them at 4ish months rather difficult. This is a personal luxury, not an opinion of other's schedules. I am told by those in the know that I will be happy to see the back of them, but that is something I will need to experience first. When I have bought local meat it has been hogget, which I am happy with. So, my chaps will suffer the pain and indignity of wether-'ing' to live that bit longer. I might not feel the same way next time.
runtley

Well, oddly enough (I might get shot down here), I do not find pigs live up to their good reputation. So far the sheep have proved to be far more intelligent, although it might just be that they are sneaky. The sheep and lambs have fabulous personalities, which are very distinct from each other. Our ewes are so friendly dispite the man handling to check feet, etc.

We have always kept Old Spots in the orchard (apart from a couple of saddlebacks), they are just pushy and have no manners. And if I fall over and knock myself out in the sheep paddock they are unlikely to decide to try me for dinner, pigs have fewer concerns about taking a bite (a few daring chickens have lost their lives by hanging around the pig trough). I have no issue putting the pigs in the freezer. Again, no matter how well read we might be I suppose we form opinions on animal husbandry as we experience the animal.
Nick

Oh, pigs' intelligence is vastly over egged. Wink
kirstyfern

Camile - having not kept sheep before I find the idea of killing them at 4ish months rather difficult. This is a personal luxury, not an opinion of other's schedules. I am told by those in the know that I will be happy to see the back of them, but that is something I will need to experience first. When I have bought local meat it has been hogget, which I am happy with. So, my chaps will suffer the pain and indignity of wether-'ing' to live that bit longer. I might not feel the same way next time.


That is my opinion as well. Small bit of discomfort as a baby and a longer life.

I ear tag the day they leave the holding, usually at 9 months old for slaughter, I would rather do that than have them tear their tags out (it happens a lot here because of the thick brambles, once we have the fence up and the goats get in that should be less of a problem but the goats also pull their tags out!)
Bodger

Oh, pigs' intelligence is vastly over egged. Wink
I think you'll find that those are chickens Nick. Rolling Eyes

I know from experience that its tricky, but you must try not too Beatrix Potterise your animals. Your lambs can't comprehend the difference between four, six months or nine months thumbup . Pel

True pigs are pushy and at first can have no manners, but if you teach them from being little they will wait nicely until their feed is put down, and some pigs will sit and give you a trotter for food (well my mum's KK boar does). Though you do get the odd blonde pig who cant be taught anything. I find lambs are rather funny/silly got a good personality until their adult wool grows and then they become a regular sheep, but again they do have their own individual personality but it tends to go out the window when they flock (this is what i have found at least).

Ahh 9 months old for them, where i tagged lambs there was no brambles so haven't come across that problem for sheep (cattle yes, though to do with gorse). The lambs I've seen grow some of them are ready by august to go off, as some before but they were from an organic flock so aren't allowed to go off too soon (or at least weren't 3 years ago now).

How did the castrating go? Bodger

You can't beat pigs and although I have no problem sending weaners off to the freezer, I'd still like to have a couple of sows that I could name and keep around the place for a while. Unless they've escaped and they're actually legging it, I find keeping and watching pigs a very relaxing passtime. Mrs R

Well, oddly enough (I might get shot down here), I do not find pigs live up to their good reputation. So far the sheep have proved to be far more intelligent,

I have to agree, I don't think pigs are vastly more intelligent than sheep or cows. I've trained dogs, pigs and cows to do similar things and the fastest learners and most willing were cows & dogs in joint first and pigs behind. They are friendly and perfectly OK, but I think this vast intelligence they're meant to have is 'over egged' as nick put it. I've not done *much* training with sheep, but they seem just as clever, just a bit too flighty and nervy to progress fast and be reliable. More ruled by their nerves. Nick

I had those two sows until very recently. Fed them in the same place every day for almost 5 years. Every day, I still had to teach them to walk the full length of the fence and through the gate rather than to come through the stock netting.

Intelligent? Feh. Bodger

You were the one that they'd trained. thumbup Mutton

I think there is also a lot of variation between breeds and with individuals in those breeds.

We have Soay who are definitely mostly bright sheep. Over the winter we fed hay. I could see that some of the old ones were getting pushed back. It is a tame flock, and the oldies are some of the tamest. They left the mob and came over to the handling area to see if I had anything specially for them so I let them in and got them some more hay. After that they split themselves off from the mob every evening for the polite dining table. The sequence evolved over the winter, with the rest of the flock learning I wouldn't let them in the handling area (even though they tried to burgle) so after a bit at feeding time, the main flock would wander off to wait at the hay racks while I let the old ladies in to the handling area, then I'd go and feed the main flock.

That said we have two wethers that panic easily and are a right pain to handle. Next on the abattoir list. runtley

Well, both ram lambs have been castrated and didn't really appear to take a great deal of notice. They wriggled their rear ends briefly and then ran off with the ewe lambs as usual. THANK GOODNESS!

However, the shepherd has left me mortified as he tells me that A (my favourite, bravest sheep) has very, very discreetly lambed and it looks like No. 5 has nicked it. This would explain a lot, but is a pain as there would have been no need to bottle feed if she had kept to her own. I am bringing them inside for lambing next time. Nicky cigreen

glad it went well

they really seem to get over it very fast, and as you say you can then keep them longer for hogget and mutton.. and i prefer both to lamb. I dont like ram taint either so there is another reason, and they say a bottle fed friendly ram is a danger.

i find it sad to send any of our livestock off, or kill any of the poultry, but I'm ok with it. I find it much easier to send the pigs off than the sheep though - the pigs are just a tad scary by full size, and often can be a pita to load into the trailer, whilst our sheep are tame and follow us, and make me feel a traitor. runtley

Bodger - I know the difference between 4 months and 9 and I feel fortunate that I can afford to Beatrix Potterise my livestock. We keep few animals in what would be considered by most farmers to be luxurious, indulgent conditions. They are born into a kind* world and attain a better than average age.

(*apart from the small matter of unwanted testicals)

The blot on our landscape is the slaughterhouse, but without that ultimate death they would not be here anyway as we don't run a petting zoo (aside from the geese, who never made it to the pot).

I do not want to dispatch them based on economics. If that was my over-riding concern I would buy meat. I am lucky to have the opportunity to grow my own in the conditions I create...although time spent on this website is not good for my personal productivity! Nick

You were the one that they'd trained. thumbup

There is a lot of truth in that. The only slight disagreement I'd have is that I'm eating bacon, right now. Debbie

The blot on our landscape is the slaughterhouse, but without that ultimate death they would not be here anyway as we don't run a petting zoo (aside from the geese, who never made it to the pot).
Runtley We have a smallholding - only 20 acres - and go the abattoir most weeks. We have been doing this ofr the last 10 years and it doesn't matter how often we do it it never gets any easier We have always said that the day its easy is the day we stop doing what we do - we will have lost our feeling for our animals making us no better than the big commercial guys. We do our own poultry too and have a policy that the only meat we buy is wild game as we care so much as to how animals are kept - when we eat out we eat vegy. We have to make our living from our holding but not at the compromise of how our animals are kept so you continue to dread abattoir day but enjoy your animals when they come back and do them justice by using every bit of them you possibly can. we even cure our lambs sheep skins. runtley

Debbie, you type a lot of sense, thank you. Nicky cigreen

The blot on our landscape is the slaughterhouse, but without that ultimate death they would not be here anyway as we don't run a petting zoo (aside from the geese, who never made it to the pot).
Runtley We have a smallholding - only 20 acres - and go the abattoir most weeks. We have been doing this ofr the last 10 years and it doesn't matter how often we do it it never gets any easier We have always said that the day its easy is the day we stop doing what we do - we will have lost our feeling for our animals making us no better than the big commercial guys. We do our own poultry too and have a policy that the only meat we buy is wild game as we care so much as to how animals are kept - when we eat out we eat vegy. We have to make our living from our holding but not at the compromise of how our animals are kept so you continue to dread abattoir day but enjoy your animals when they come back and do them justice by using every bit of them you possibly can. we even cure our lambs sheep skins.

my sentiments exactly - apart from we only have 2 acres, so we have to buy some other meat - but i choose carefully. and we have sheepskin rugs on the back of the sofas, and by our beds too Smile Mrs R

I guess I'm one of the commercial guys now as I find it easier and easier to send to slaughter. Knowing that I've 'turned out' a good animal and given it a full life is a matter of pride, and the sadness is very little, as I know they've fulfilled what they were here to do. Debbie

It did make me laugh about your geese runtley. We had goslings for the christmas market a couple of years ago. Simon was late take them on their final journey and made me help loads them (I had been their mum you see - they had inprinted on me and I had said good by to them a couple of days before because I knew it was going to be impossible for me) so first goose goes in whilst simon goes for the second it looked at me, I looked at it, it squawked at me, I burst into tears...............the upshot is we now have two pet geese by the name of Honeybunny collectively they hate simon and simon hates them and they spend a lot of their time swearing at each other...they love me though.....


ah well, it happens to us all Embarassed Bodger

Bodger - I know the difference between 4 months and 9 and I feel fortunate that I can afford to Beatrix Potterise my livestock. We keep few animals in what would be considered by most farmers to be luxurious, indulgent conditions. They are born into a kind* world and attain a better than average age.


See, now that probably makes you a little harder than me, because I couldn't do that with my animals and then send them off. I treat my animals and poultry well by any standards, but have to remain as detached as possible from them if I'm going to turn them into food.














Seee now th runtley

I suppose that might be right. However, I have never bonded with a pig so maybe that does not count. I have had many delightful chickens processed, but refused to sanction the killing of the geese. Personality buys life on this holding.

I have settled myself with having the ram lambs slaughtered at what I feel is a good age. I feel a little trepidation about Runtley's future as he is my first bottle fed baby, but ultimately I accept this is his destiny and why we have him...of course I can't guarantee he won't be here forever, but I doubt it. Debbie

haha for pigs with personality you best come and meet our boar and our couple of his ladies runtley

Personality aside, we quite fancy trying some middle whites as I am told they graze rather than root. Less distruction in the orchard would be good now we have got the grass back at last. Any experience of them? Debbie

all pigs root unless you ring them (cruel in my view - it inhibits natural behaviour - but others think otherwise) its just the snub nosed like middle white and berkshire tend to root slightly less (or maybe lessdeep would be a better discription) than the longer nosed pigs like the saddleback and tamworth. IN theory the Kune Kune is a grazer but in practice they root a certain amount too. runtley

I would not ring a pig. I can accept more shallow rooting, the old spots dug up a tree. Apparently the middle white can get a lot of its dietry needs from grazing, plus it is said to be docile. I swear the old spots used to dig holes with the hope that I would fall and they could eat me. dpack

taming miss bacon was needed for her to grow big enough to be worth curing as she was a nasty young un and on a short diary

she was a nice piggy when she started her transit to smoked air dried and now tastes wonderful

it isnt harsh to tame beasts who are heading for the freezer ,it makes life nicer for all and as dwc's said a happy life and a well finished product Green Rosie

IN theory the Kune Kune is a grazer but in practice they root a certain amount too.

Yup - I have 4 piglets and 2 are right little diggers. My pristine field is no longer pristine Rolling Eyes Laughing dpack

Embarassed
tiny the little highland was so charming he had to go to ray doyles's happy animal home Laughing

oh well ,there is a case for not getting to fond of edible critters but ... BadgerFace

We 'make friends' with all the livestock here, it makes mine and their life easier Wink

I must admit to feeling a little sadness when loading up pigs for their final journey. I tend to spend more time chatting to and handling the pigs from birth, than I do the sheep; and pigs are such charming characters !

We also rear more lambs than piglets, so I tend not to get to know them individually, thats not to say I don't have my favorite sheep, though they are my ewes and rams, rather than slaughter lambs.

At the end of the day, I know I've done my very best to give them a good life and hopefully a pain and stress free death, and thats all that matters to me - until they arrive on my plate, then it's the taste that counts Smile Mrs R

some 'buy' life from me too - Ruby is my special tamworth lady and I'll see to it that she ends her days here. Peach was upgraded from beef calf to ox Laughing BadgerFace

some 'buy' life from me too - Ruby is my special tamworth lady and I'll see to it that she ends her days here. Peach was upgraded from beef calf to ox Laughing

Arr yes, I have a 'upgraded' wether, 'Huw' ! He is now Hamish the ram's companion, after I sent my other ram for pet mince ! Wink dpack

ruby is nice Gervase

some 'buy' life from me too - Ruby is my special tamworth lady and I'll see to it that she ends her days here. Peach was upgraded from beef calf to ox Laughing

Arr yes, I have a 'upgraded' wether, 'Huw' ! He is now Hamish the ram's companion, after I sent my other ram for pet mince ! Wink

We had a 'special' wether, Sammy the Spastic. He survived joint ill to become a hefty young ram lamb, survived a botched castration which left him a bucky, cheerfully impregnating ewe lambs, then survived an inpeptly-handled vasectomy on a trestle in the vets' car park. He lived on for a couple of years as a 'teaser' for the real rams.
He's in the freezer now, though. Nick

My freezer? If so, it didn't do him any harm, tastewise. Rob R

some 'buy' life from me too - Ruby is my special tamworth lady and I'll see to it that she ends her days here. Peach was upgraded from beef calf to ox Laughing

Arr yes, I have a 'upgraded' wether, 'Huw' ! He is now Hamish the ram's companion, after I sent my other ram for pet mince ! Wink

We had a 'special' wether, Sammy the Spastic. He survived joint ill to become a hefty young ram lamb, survived a botched castration which left him a bucky, cheerfully impregnating ewe lambs, then survived an inpeptly-handled vasectomy on a trestle in the vets' car park. He lived on for a couple of years as a 'teaser' for the real rams.
He's in the freezer now, though.

You changed vets though, right? Shocked chez

What do you mean, vets? He did himself with a pocket knife, didn't he? Laughing Rob R

What do you mean, vets? He did himself with a pocket knife, didn't he? Laughing

Oooh, I misunderstood... Embarassed Why was he in the vet's carpark, then? Laughing chez

Only flat space in the county? Rob R

That's feasible. BadgerFace

some 'buy' life from me too - Ruby is my special tamworth lady and I'll see to it that she ends her days here. Peach was upgraded from beef calf to ox Laughing

Arr yes, I have a 'upgraded' wether, 'Huw' ! He is now Hamish the ram's companion, after I sent my other ram for pet mince ! Wink

We had a 'special' wether, Sammy the Spastic. He survived joint ill to become a hefty young ram lamb, survived a botched castration which left him a bucky, cheerfully impregnating ewe lambs, then survived an inpeptly-handled vasectomy on a trestle in the vets' car park. He lived on for a couple of years as a 'teaser' for the real rams.
He's in the freezer now, though.

Can't say he didn't lead an interesting life ! "Memoirs of a Wether" - by Sammy the Spastic Laughing Make a great children's book !! Wink Gervase

You changed vets though, right? Shocked
To be fair to the vet, he was used to doing vasectomies on rams with big, swinging ball-bags, and had never done one on a cryptorchid ram - and one with only one testicle, at that (the other having been caught the right side of the elastrator ring).
At one point he had a blue-white piece of spaghetti over his forceps and was thinking aloud, "So this is it?" and I squeaked, "No! I think that might be his femoral nerve".
Between us we managed to find the vas deferens in the end, and the job was neatly done. Lifting a comatose, stitched ram back into the Land Rover nearly buggered my back though. jessyka

my wither i believe is sick!!???!!

my male lamb is seeming to acting just fine but he is not pooping pelets. its a clot of pelets, i had gone into his pin and there was a pile of wet runny poo it doesnt seem to be normal. and im new to raising lambs any advice? Surprised gil

Re: my wither i believe is sick!!???!!

my male lamb is seeming to acting just fine but he is not pooping pelets. its a clot of pelets, i had gone into his pin and there was a pile of wet runny poo it doesnt seem to be normal. and im new to raising lambs any advice? Surprised

Lambshit is often runny, and funny colours (especially yellow or orange). Or sticky.
How old is the lamb ?
       Downsizer Forum Index -> Livestock and Pets
Page 1 of 1
Home Home Home Home Home