Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption
 


       Downsizer Forum Index -> Land Management
dpack

water

i need to get water to the new orchard

on grid is unlikely due to cost etc etc but we have a big pond 25m linear/6m vertical and a small stream under bridge 15 m linear/5m vertical . both have issues as one is under a foot bridge and both cross well used footpaths, the pond would need to get through blackthorn to the fence

then it needs distributing over about an acre and less than a couple of meters of vertical

1 half a dozen folk could do the weekly watering with a lot of buckets ( i did it with a large jam pan and a 50 lt stock pot as a resevoir ) easier than i did but with a bit more digging in the stream bed and a rope for filling the bucket it could be relatively relaxing

2 a shaduf and guttering system would do the lift and can be knocked up from rope and sticks etc ( the public Rolling Eyes )

3 various pumps are available ( foot path, the public Rolling Eyes ) but what is "green" if poss and effective ( certainly )?

a simple, portable pump that can raise say 50 litres in a couple of minutes out of the stream and pump it 50 m would be ace if such things exist.
dpack

searching for the hearts and minds of the neighbours to see if they have a hose and no water meter is ongoing Wink

but....?
Slim

Are you looking for the short term, or the long term?

My first instinct is a honda trash pump going to lay flat tubing that has been tunneled under any foot paths, or artfully wired up above them, and into drip lines, but that's pricey and noisy, and quite likely overkill

I was once on an agroforestry setup in Belize that had an electric pump hooked up to a single solar panel. When weather was good it filled a cistern. I don't know enough about it to provide much more help, but it makes me think your big first hurdles are piping over/under footpath(s) and possibly on-site storage?
tahir

we never irrigated any of our plantings, even though there wasa drought the 2nd summer after we planted losses were minimal.

pretty much all ours were planted as whips, I guess its different if you plant bigger trees.
Mistress Rose

I was thinking solar power too Slim, but probably only for short periods. Using it to fill a cistern once of twice a week would be a good idea, but sometimes we have periods of several weeks where the sun doesn't really do it's duty. A small removable wind turbine would be another alternative to power the pump. Probably if you could get the manpower reliably, the bucket chain from the stream would be best as blackthorn can be nasty stuff; unless you can get permission for a gate in the hedge.
Nick

Secrete a ram pump under the bridge and Bury pipe work. Free, constant water.
dpack

pumping sounds good but getting under the tarmac paths might be a bit tricky to get permission and rather difficult to do "privately" so portable and supervised over the path while pumping might be the only pumping option.

a ram or solar pump and cistern would be nice as would installing permanent pipe but i have a feeling that the stream could have little or zero flow in a proper drought which means we would need to swap to the less convenient pond option when need is greatest.

hopefully by next summer they will be established enough to be drought proof so it is a short term issue for this site ( the chances of a pond or stream for subsequent sites are not high so low cost would be good.

i was considering that an electric bike has a few options for driving a pump either from the mechanical power of the chain drive or the rather powerful battery pack (36v/ 25ah that will put out enough current to drive a 250w motor with lots of torque )
if it will push me up a hill i suspect it has the poke to push water around if i can rig a decent pto for a pump

human powered pumps exist but owt that will do the job ( 200 lt in an hour or so ) is going to be less than portable

not watering would be ideal but i suspect that unless we get rain at least every couple of weeks watering might be needed to keep losses to a minimum.

i have pruned to shape them which will reduce transpiration a bit so with a bit of luck emergency watering will be rare but if it does have to be done i dont fancy a repeat of 60 buckets out of the stream , up a steep slope under a bridge, over the bridge parapet, across to the fence and into a huge pan, then distribution to the trees Rolling Eyes

if the stream to pan bit was as simple as lay out hose and start it running i would be a happy bunny.
tahir

not watering would be ideal but i suspect that unless we get rain at least every couple of weeks watering might be needed to keep losses to a minimum.


What's the soil like? You're a LOT wetter up there than we are, our losses on apples and plums were minimal.
tahir

Irrigation isn't going to encourage the roots to find water deeper down.
gregotyn

Does your local council have anything to do with the orchard? If so they may be prepared to bring water for you to the site, when needed. If they will help, you may be able to get a water tower to store the water in, until you need it; and also catch rain water, when it rains!

I would be inclined toward storage on site, and be able to take advantage of rain water, as well as pumping from the stream/pond when needed. Anything the Council can do to move 'dirty' water from places to your site would be good.
Maybe asking a local farmer if he would help with a tanker. I would be looking out for old central heating fuel tanks, cleaned out they could be acceptable? Ask a dealer in these new double walled tanks if they can help, and they will get advertising on the tank/s for their fuels and tanks? thus stealing a march on their competitors.
dpack

having just been for a look it is only the low lying pears that seem to be suffering, i suspect they found it a bit damp to start with and then a bit dry for good root growth

the big bare root ones that went into slightly dryer spots are all doing ok and the more recent pot grown ones look happy as.

they did all get a bucket each 2 wks ago and we did have rain about a week ago

the soil is clay and gravel in various ratios so once they have set hair roots they should be fine if they head downwards a bit

at the mo the top foot or so is fairly dry

getting a layer of mulch around them when we do the july mow might be wise

thinking of mowing i recon some sickle work to reduce the vegetation around each basket might be a wise move.

as we have a 50% chance of rain on three days i didn't water yet but trying to plan for a drought just in case seems sensible

re the big scale long term water stuff it isnt quite what i might need but thanks anyway and it is info to file in "i remember...", what i might need is 200 lt a week in an easy couple of hours to make sure they survive if it is a dry summer.



49 out of 50 rosa rugosa are doing well and one is probably going to make it so hopefully they will grow enough over the summer to provide some wind break effect along the fence line for winter.
Jam Lady

How do you apply the water? Pouring a bucket of H2O on the ground around the tree is very inefficient. Water will not penetrate deeply, there's evaporative loss from sun / wind.

Way back when I had a community garden plot (decades ago and in a different state) I would fill one gallon plastic milk jugs with water, cap, load up my car and drive over to water my vegetable plants. I used 2 liter soda bottles with small holes in the bottom, tapped to a stake to stabilize. Fill from transport jugs using a funnel. Water slowly drips out of the bottom, efficiently penetrating deeper into the soil than it would just pouring same volume over the ground. Israeli technique.

Take small diameter PVC pipe, drill holes around the bottom, cap bottom. Drive into the ground around each tree, pour water in to slowly leak out where you want to encourage root growth.

For trees - have you ever seen Treegator watering bags? http://treegator.com/ They are pricey but could you bodge up your own?
tahir

Mulch after some wet weather and you’ll be fine. We’re on solid clay with a few gravelly patches, the year after we planted it was so dry big cracks appeared in the turf but near enough everything survived.
Mistress Rose

If you are thinking of starting other sites, a water bowser that can be pulled behind a vehicle would be useful, especially if you can rig up some sort of water collector on it. I didn't realise the paths were tarmac, as you can usually burrow through a grass or mud path, but as you say, not tarmac.
wellington womble

It doesn't help with getting water, but a friend filled ‘oil’ drums with water from a tractor set up and drilled a small hole in the bottom. I remember it took some experimenting to get the right size hole so the water drizzled out over a long period and then he used to leave them for a while after that to encourage root growth. Might make it mess of a chore long term?
dpack

panic delayed we had a decent shower this morning Cool

they will be ok for another week or two hopefully by then they will have grown some more roots .

apart from the tarmac path nick's ram pump/cistern idea would be best for a long term supply to this site, other sites might be better suited to the alternatives.

a portable pump would be nice but if we need to watering by hand seems an option with a few tweaks towards raising splosh from the stream with a rope to avoid the scrambling on steep mud that gets slippier with every tilt of a bucket Laughing
Hairyloon

pumping sounds good but getting under the tarmac paths might be a bit tricky to get permission and rather difficult to do "privately"...


You couldn't hire a mole and send that under?

Didn't you suggest I drill a well when I asked about water some years ago?
Slim

I think you should hire out, or take up the practice of, rain dancing.

And film it.


Add this to the dpack youtube channel that I wish existed with his instructional videos of withying about with faggots
dpack

oddly enough a rain dance was involved Laughing

a well would work if i understand the local geology/hydrology. it would hit a water table in gravel and if at the highest point might need to be about 10m deep.
a couple of weeks with some endless oildrums, a trenching tool, a hoistman and a sump pump should do it.
i cant see the various "authorities" being to comfortable with that .

as mentioned this time if i can keep em alive for a couple of months with minimal kerfuffle i will be happy.
Nicky Colour it green

I believe you need a licence to take water from streams etc - so anything really obvious - even a load of humans with buckets - might draw undue attention.

When we planted our orchard, the trees got no more than their intial watering in, and they survived
Hairyloon

I believe you need a licence to take water from streams etc...
You can take 20 cubic meters per day without a license. You'd do that surprisingly quickly with a constant stream, but it's a heck of a lot to pup yourself.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/water-management-abstract-or-impound-water
Nick

pumping sounds good but getting under the tarmac paths might be a bit tricky to get permission and rather difficult to do "privately"...

You couldn't hire a mole and send that under?

Didn't you suggest I drill a well when I asked about water some years ago?

I had cause to dig up around 200m of public footpath a while back. It was green lane, rather than tarmac, but I just emailed the pathways officer, explained what I wanted to do, and she was grand with it. I got it in writing. As long as I put it back how it was, and made the works safe over night, there was no problem, and no cost involved. I figured the letter she sent me giving permission was all the defence I'd ever need. So, don't rule it out on that score. It might be much easier than you think.
dpack

as 2 cu m would do an entire dry summer abstraction limits are not going to be a problem if i don’t over engineer a solution to raising and transporting 250 litres if it is a dry fortnight Cool dpack

pumping sounds good but getting under the tarmac paths might be a bit tricky to get permission and rather difficult to do "privately"...

You couldn't hire a mole and send that under?

Didn't you suggest I drill a well when I asked about water some years ago?

I had cause to dig up around 200m of public footpath a while back. It was green lane, rather than tarmac, but I just emailed the pathways officer, explained what I wanted to do, and she was grand with it. I got it in writing. As long as I put it back how it was, and made the works safe over night, there was no problem, and no cost involved. I figured the letter she sent me giving permission was all the defence I'd ever need. So, don't rule it out on that score. It might be much easier than you think.

umm interesting Wink
Nick

I was laying water pipe. Couple of feet or so down. Mini digger and back filling. I think I just made sure there were no open trenches left at any point and noone complained. Local busy body Parish Councillors walked their dogs their daily, so they knew what was happening, and no-one got irate.

If you've to chop a six inch wide trench through tarmac, you could be done and finished in a couple of hours. Hi Vis, and some cones, and everyone will assume you're official. Bag of self lay tarmac can be bought easily enough. If you've grass either side, should be easy enough to make sure you're not blocking the path unduly. Have a board for pushchairs, or something, to keep people happy.
dpack

umm , we have "tamed" the parish council and have the support of the city council to the extent of it it does not cost them or create a liability for them it is ok.

i wonder who actually administrates the relevant paths?

the easiest way i can think of under would be an adjustable angle auger from our patch direct to water level if i could blag some drillers into doing a charity job .

other means are plausible but even if a shaped one can drill a duct through 10m of clay and gravel in a fairly tidy way it would be best not to mention it Laughing

if it is only this year and only in a very dry spell buckets is probably going to be the best option for cost and effort
       Downsizer Forum Index -> Land Management
Page 1 of 1
Home Home Home Home Home