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Meat Tax

 
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Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 16 4:30 pm    Post subject: Meat Tax  Reply with quote    

I was going to quote the most relevant bits of this article, but when I did I found that I had almost selected the whole article. So instead read this, every single word of it;

Simon Fairlie looks at different ways of taxing meat and concludes that the best way to reduce meat consumption to sustainable levels is to stop using fossil fuels.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 32959
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 16 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

sustainable for most things requires the global population to reduce by three or four zeros and even then some resources will still be finite ,fossil fuels for instance.

food and water supply may be one factor in such a reduction but other mechanisms might also do the deed ,these range from pathogens to conflict(although historic conflicts and pathogens have only had temporary effect on population numbers )

assuming humans are going to attempt to become sustainable even with a rising population the food and water supply will be a factor but there are perhaps more pressing issues of either consuming less energy and finite resources to bring those to a sustainable level which could perhaps be achieved if those with control of these were less interested in greed and took a broader long term attitude .

anything less than a huge change in many aspects is unlikely to be any more effective than emptying the ashtray as you crash into a motorway support pillar.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8404
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 16 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Meat Tax Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
I was going to quote the most relevant bits of this article, but when I did I found that I had almost selected the whole article. So instead read this, every single word of it;

Simon Fairlie looks at different ways of taxing meat and concludes that the best way to reduce meat consumption to sustainable levels is to stop using fossil fuels.
I've only scanned the article but from what I've read I agree.
Taxing the product does nothing to encourage sustainable production.
Taxing pesticides, fertilizers, machinery sales & fuel would on the other hand encourage sustainable production.
But, & I fear it's a big but.
The powers that be have shown where their interests lie & it's not with sustainability.
It's all about the dollar, as I discovered today.

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 3977
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 16 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

He should have said,best way to reduce Meat Production is to stop using fossil fuels.

Wonder how much an acre he charges for scything silage?

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 16 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Ty Gwyn wrote:
He should have said,best way to reduce Meat Production is to stop using fossil fuels.

Wonder how much an acre he charges for scything silage?


Less than he does for threshing a field of beans

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 16 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Meat Tax Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:

Taxing the product does nothing to encourage sustainable production.


Exactly. I am all for encouraging sustainable production so anything that encourages us to do less of it is wrong.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 8823

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 16 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Something that struck me reading this is that all of this debate is about societies that can chose what they eat. Inuits actually use far more fossil fuel if they eat vegetables, and some parts of Africa have a cow based economy as they mainly use the cows rather than crops for food. Animals, given enough range, can convert poor grazing to food for people on land that isn't suitable for any crops.

I don't think putting tax on particular types of food is a good idea. It is always a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and has unforeseen consequences. If VAT was used, it would be better for people like you Rob, but just get 1 over the limit, and you get 20% increase in your prices straight away. Similarly taxes on sugar would have an effect on all sugars including honey from small producers.

The only way I see that VAT could be used would be to apply it to manufactured food, which is the main user of cheap, non-sustainably produced meat, but even that could cause unforeseen consequences as it too might affect small producers of good quality food.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 16 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

VAT would be pretty terrible for me too, as if you choose not to be registered you can't claim it back, which makes food more expensive either way. There would only be a slight advantage when you were making a profit but if you slipped into a loss you'd end up being taxed on them.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8404
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 16 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
VAT would be pretty terrible for me too, as if you choose not to be registered you can't claim it back, which makes food more expensive either way. There would only be a slight advantage when you were making a profit but if you slipped into a loss you'd end up being taxed on them.
& even more paperwork.
For a small farm with no employees you don't need more time in the office but less.
It's also the point I was making on the fast food thread. VAT punishes the customer.
Taxing production punishes the producer.
If anything (not just agricultural production) is unsustainable it should be taxed heavily.
But it's unlikely to happen.
The worlds number one commodity (oil) is dealt in dollars.
So countries want dollars to buy oil.
One way to get dollars at favourable rates is to suck up to the US.
What's about the biggest US export after war?
Unsustainable, energy intensive, chemical laden agriculture.
We buy their model & agree to use more oil & shite on our food so we can keep the motion lotion flowing elsewhere.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 16 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
VAT would be pretty terrible for me too, as if you choose not to be registered you can't claim it back, which makes food more expensive either way. There would only be a slight advantage when you were making a profit but if you slipped into a loss you'd end up being taxed on them.
& even more paperwork.
For a small farm with no employees you don't need more time in the office but less.
It's also the point I was making on the fast food thread. VAT punishes the customer.
Taxing production punishes the producer.
If anything (not just agricultural production) is unsustainable it should be taxed heavily.
But it's unlikely to happen.
The worlds number one commodity (oil) is dealt in dollars.
So countries want dollars to buy oil.
One way to get dollars at favourable rates is to suck up to the US.
What's about the biggest US export after war?
Unsustainable, energy intensive, chemical laden agriculture.
We buy their model & agree to use more oil & shite on our food so we can keep the motion lotion flowing elsewhere.


And as I always say it is down to the consumer to support the systems they want to see, as it's no good relying on governments to do it.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8404
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 16 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Rob R wrote:
Tavascarow wrote:
Rob R wrote:
VAT would be pretty terrible for me too, as if you choose not to be registered you can't claim it back, which makes food more expensive either way. There would only be a slight advantage when you were making a profit but if you slipped into a loss you'd end up being taxed on them.
& even more paperwork.
For a small farm with no employees you don't need more time in the office but less.
It's also the point I was making on the fast food thread. VAT punishes the customer.
Taxing production punishes the producer.
If anything (not just agricultural production) is unsustainable it should be taxed heavily.
But it's unlikely to happen.
The worlds number one commodity (oil) is dealt in dollars.
So countries want dollars to buy oil.
One way to get dollars at favourable rates is to suck up to the US.
What's about the biggest US export after war?
Unsustainable, energy intensive, chemical laden agriculture.
We buy their model & agree to use more oil & shite on our food so we can keep the motion lotion flowing elsewhere.


And as I always say it is down to the consumer to support the systems they want to see, as it's no good relying on governments to do it.
So spread the word. Your average consumer is almost as ignorant to the damage they cause as the bullocks & sheep on your farm.
& the majority of the ones that are switched on are happy to play the game for their own ends.
& to be perfectly honest would the population be happy with the Cuban model if we had that option?
Most people would be horrified if they had to grow their own food & compost their own shit.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 16 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Spreading the word is pretty much all I do. But often it gets dismissed as coming from a 'vested interest', which it is. But it's ironic that I'd be much better off jacking it all in and going to milk [maize-fed] cows or drive tractors.

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