Home Page
   Articles
       links
About Us    
Traders        
Recipes            
Latest Articles
pump storage, low volume high density
Page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Downsizer Forum Index -> Energy Efficiency and Construction/Major Projects
Author 
 Message
Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 12850

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I hope their fluid really is as safe as they claim. I have come across too many 'wonder chemical' like CFCs that didn't live up to their promises. CFCs were developed to replace more toxic and corrosive chemicals in things like vapour cleaning and degreasing in the electronics industry where things like carbon tetrachloride were used or to replace things like ammonia in refrigeration. Sadly, they caused other problems. At least we know where we are with water.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39871
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Slim wrote:
Costs for these approaches will have to be competitive with simple stacks of old electric car batteries, which will become more and more plentiful as time goes on


yep

75% is getting a bit tired for a car but a pile of them and some fans should work fine as storage for smoothing

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4407
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dpack wrote:
re mines the big weight up and down a deep hole may have some merit for reusing the main drop shafts as energy storage for surge supply


Listen for the big splash,lol,in South Wales anyway.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39871
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

most places, but pumps must be plausible in some

Shane



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3283
Location: Doha. Is hot.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 21 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Car batteries are not a great solution in my opinion. They are used as the basis for most uninterruptible power supplies (UPSs) and they are something of a nightmare. For starters, they fail every five years or so, which means that when you have a large bank of them you are constantly having to change them out. They also give off hydrogen during the charge cycle, which causes obvious issues.

I've been trying to push to get lithium batteries trialled for UPS systems but with no success so far. They take up less than half the space, don't give off hydrogen, and last for many, many years. Forget all the horror stories about them exploding - this is always caused by going for the lowest bidder when it comes to procuring the control systems.

Last edited by Shane on Thu Feb 11, 21 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5995
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 21 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I could have been more specific. I meant lithium electric car batteries, not lead acid which give of hydrogen.
There are companies that are very keen to reclaim the lithium batteries from EVs and turn them into grid storage.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39871
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 21 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

lead acid stuff is carp(i have used it small scale but tis carp for that as well), lion ex ecocar when it gets to say 75% charge capacity would be an ace way to store energy, extend useful worklife before recycle and cut costs for having a newish battery in the ecocar

Shane



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3283
Location: Doha. Is hot.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 21 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Slim wrote:
I could have been more specific. I meant lithium electric car batteries, not lead acid which give of hydrogen.
There are companies that are very keen to reclaim the lithium batteries from EVs and turn them into grid storage.

Ah - makes more sense. When you wrote "old" car batteries, I was assuming you meant old tech

In my opinion, an even better idea is to use batteries while they're still in cars. Once EVs become mainstream, there will be millions of them plugged in whenever they are not being used. Perfect decentralised electricity storage system for the national grid!

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27152
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 21 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I agree on the questionable nature of the "fluid".

Generally though I'm relaxed on how the battery problem might be solved.
It lends itself to my mind at least to imaginative and long lasting solutions.
There really is an abundance of renewable energy available so the efficiency of the storage solution is in the long term less important than the sustainability of it.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39871
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 21 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

the paperwork says mineral so it is not organic,

it needs to be fairly cheap , high solubility to give a SPG of 2.5 over water, lowish toxicity/handling issues for pr and practical reasons

I might try something like sodium silicate with a few surfactants to make it flow better.
just a guess for a place to start RnD

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5995
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 21 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Shane wrote:
Slim wrote:
I could have been more specific. I meant lithium electric car batteries, not lead acid which give of hydrogen.
There are companies that are very keen to reclaim the lithium batteries from EVs and turn them into grid storage.

Ah - makes more sense. When you wrote "old" car batteries, I was assuming you meant old tech

In my opinion, an even better idea is to use batteries while they're still in cars. Once EVs become mainstream, there will be millions of them plugged in whenever they are not being used. Perfect decentralised electricity storage system for the national grid!


Those schemes are in the works as well!
(¿Porque no los dios?)

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 12850

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 21 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Unfortunately I think storage is going to be one of the major sticking points for renewable energy. Battery technology has come on a long way, but I think it is still slightly lagging behind. The ideal battery needs to be safe, rechargeable as frequently as possible, have a long life and be made of readily available materials which can be recycled. The ideal may not be obtainable, but if a battery uses materials which are not that common, that can be a problem long term.

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5995
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 21 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

"In Boost for Renewables, Grid-Scale Battery Storage Is on the Rise - Yale E360" https://e360.yale.edu/features/in-boost-for-renewables-grid-scale-battery-storage-is-on-the-rise
Faster than anticipated battery affordability is why EVs are about to be everywhere you look as well. (And why there will be a flood of used li-ion batteries to be recycled for raw materials, or simply repurposed for grid storage projects) not to mention that it's highly likely that cars will be used as decentralized grid storage.

The grid scale Tesla battery in australia has already more than paid for itself.
The fact is that solar and wind paired with big batteries is already cheaper than new generating capacity from gas or coal in a lot of places, and the costs of batteries solar and wind are likely to continue to fall. It would be foolish to invest in gas or coal

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5995
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 21 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Li-ion won't go away soon, but it is being updated.
New batteries are being developed with all sorts of different approaches, and some of those may one day beat out lithium, but it'll be a while. Until, expect new growth in grid scale batteries made of lithium

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 12850

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 21 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Yes, certainly all makes sense. I remember when I was at college in the early 1970s we were discussing solar power, which was in its infancy then. At the time, our lecturer said that an area the size of Egypt would produce enough electricity to power the whole world. It must be a lot smaller than that now with increased efficiency of solar cells, and we have a number of solar farms around here, so it must make economic sense.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Downsizer Forum Index -> Energy Efficiency and Construction/Major Projects All times are GMT
Page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2
View Latest Posts View Latest Posts

 

Archive
Powered by php-BB © 2001, 2005 php-BB Group
Style by marsjupiter.com, released under GNU (GNU/GPL) license.
Copyright © 2004 marsjupiter.com