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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42957
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 22 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

to recycle the rare earth elements from batteries* should be easier than mining and refining ores.

for a start there are several factors of ten regarding concentrations in the "raw" material that matter to the cost-effectiveness of how to make what is needed for the next battery*

collecting batteries* from a garage is a lot easier than mining in TWFCITW and similar places

* and magnets(i.e. motors and generators) and electronic stuff like phones/pooters etc or specifically the rare earth elements needed to make efficient ones, these are also very rich motherlode material to make the next ones

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27651
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 22 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I love the way with the anti EV mob that simultaneously a million tonnes needs digging to get the elements for a battery, but then somehow it will end in landfill.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 14364

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 22 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

At present some of it probably is. More and more is being recycled I am glad to say. It is economics; if it is worth recycling then it will be. The higher the extraction cost for new material the more likely recycling is to be economic. I understand they are also looking at Cornish mines and spoil heaps.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42957
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 22 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

lithium is not the pinch point, plenty of it, much is economic to extract, it has a broad environmental impact from fairly harmless to rather messy depending on where and method of extraction

the stuff needed in tiny amounts are the tricky ones, cobalt is the most obvious but the less known ones are the biggest issues

rare wins $

twfcitw is a prime example of the effects of high value commodities in poor places
gold and slaves, ivory and rubber, lanthanides.
similar players, same principles and often the same means.

the tightest pinch points are rarely mentioned, perhaps those involved find it useful that they are found in darkness and few notice how they traded, or how fragile the high-tech supply chain is regarding the materials science of the "spices" needed to make clever stuff work

the "saffron" of touch screens is a good example, known reserves would fit in a stock waggon and last a few years at 2019 rates of use.
at some point soon the largest known reserves will be those vitrified into phone and pooter screens

cobalt is the one driving the most recent power struggles in twfcitw but the others are also class A strategic resources which are being sought after with extreme vigour in many places with "good" geology and preferably "free trading terms"

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27651
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 22 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Someone was trying to get me to watch a youtube video claiming it would take 10,000 years to extract the lithium needed for cars
Cobalt isn't strictly needed for lithium batteries.
But as you say the devil is in the detail.
I tend to take the view though that if there we real impossibilities in the supply chains then oil companies would be pointing it out.
I think at this point that there are so many basically viable battery chemistries that things will muddle through.
However there are always potential nasties like deep sea mining for lithium,
Where there is demand there is always going to be exploitation and environmental damage if companies can get away with it.

gz



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 22 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Lithium can apparently be extracted from seawater..but with the expense that won't be done.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 14364

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 22 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

So can most things. We did trace elements as college and the list of things in seawater was seemingly endless. I think it was in that section of the course that the lecturer also gave trace elements in tobacco smoke, which caused the smokers in the class to pause for at least 30 secs before lighting up at the break.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42957
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 22 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

some of the post transition metals are rather useful, rare and under recycled as well

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27651
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 22 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

gz wrote:
Lithium can apparently be extracted from seawater..but with the expense that won't be done.


That's a matter of political will. Once extracted lithium can be recycled.
Intelligence would suggest saving the environment is a generational project.
Capitalism says we will only save the environment if we can make an immediate profit.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 14364

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 22 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

You also have to look at things like energy and water use. Using modern technology, it is probably a lot more efficient to recycle a lot of things that would have used too much energy produced by fossil fuels in the past. I was educated in the days of 'wet' chemistry, and now you hardly see a test tube in a lab; mainly lots of machines.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 44994
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 22 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

jema wrote:
Intelligence would suggest saving the environment is a generational project.
Capitalism says we will only save the environment if we can make an immediate profit.


That's the problem at the moment.

EVs are frankly brilliant, and realtively easy to recycle as there's a high density of high value stuff in them.

With regards to being able to do any DIY maintenance on them, I can't think of a single modern car that is designed to let the owner do anything beyond the most trivial maintenance tasks.

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27651
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 22 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:


EVs are frankly brilliant,


The biggest issue I have with EVs is that they are getting better so fast that anything bought now, if you could afford it, is going to look very dated in just a couple of years.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 14364

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 22 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

It is the same with any new technology. Not too many years ago digital cameras were the same.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 42957
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 22 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
jema wrote:
Intelligence would suggest saving the environment is a generational project.
Capitalism says we will only save the environment if we can make an immediate profit.


That's the problem at the moment.

EVs are frankly brilliant, and realtively easy to recycle as there's a high density of high value stuff in them.

With regards to being able to do any DIY maintenance on them, I can't think of a single modern car that is designed to let the owner do anything beyond the most trivial maintenance tasks.


our bikes are beyond me apart from basic stuff like tyres and tighten nuts
even the brakes are hydraulic, and the drive is intimate with the electronics and neither speak to me

air crew /ground crew

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27651
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 22 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Mistress Rose wrote:
It is the same with any new technology. Not too many years ago digital cameras were the same.


Mine is several years old now and has a fairly awful network interface, but I have figured at the end of the day there's only so many megapixels that matter and in fact my phone takes pretty good photos. So not playing any more.

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