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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 23 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

oh well £7.98 might have got a decent pine soot one

nellie the effalump makes good soot but that has a few ethical issues and most of the old pianos are long gone so only a few bits of long gone nellie are available for recycling and those usually end up in good oil paints

maybe the permafrost melt has an upside, chilly the effalump has left a few tusks hither and thither sorry

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 23 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

gulp

has anyone got a spare hippo?

more research required, the last time i got the real thing it was among a poundland box set, i did not ask the ethics

that one had a few other rather good traditional pigments if you dont mind lead, cadmium or chromium

probably not a set for a kid's xmas stocking this side of 1895 was my thought at the time

Last edited by dpack on Thu Apr 06, 23 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 23 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

the pine soot ink is splendid
far better than oil soot which is ok for shopping lists

the oil soot seems very like western lamp black, in form and shade

2 sticks of bargain pine soot for just under £8 is somewhat better value than many listings

the smell is lovely, it grinds well and with a bit of gum it has a good texture
a trace of good quality, suitable type, blue and red pigments give a very nice black

tis pity the red was a pint and a bar meal for 5ml and the blue another serving for 10 ml

some things are the price they are and the alternatives won't work
hey ho, dont need much for stealthing the ink

me so happy

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 23 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

back on frugal

when you buy matters, a weekend price may be a lot less on tuesday

pending in a saved basket for a while can give good other options(often from the same vendor)

look at the pictures, searches find lots of the same thing at very different prices with different descriptions and sometimes different packaging

if the review is not a technical test report by somebody who knows such materials it is of minimal use for art stuff(and other things)

it arrived promptly and will be a lovely gift for...
vs
the first time i tried it the bristles were on the painting in a couple of minutes and i was holding a stick, it seems the bristles were held in place with wallpaper paste

or vs
this is not sable it is some sort of "no fun fur"

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 23 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

ooh

brand name vs same item without brand name

that is one for comparing pictures and specs very carefully

my £10 camera batteries are identical to my £70 camera batteries apart from a few letters in white ink and no letters on the terminals cosy

my £30 remote is identical to the unavailable £60 branded one, the difference is one extra letter in white on my one

my haix boots were under a quarter of the price they would be if they had more than a nato number as markings(pre production for me and maybe some squaddies will have comfy feet in the jungle later)

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 23 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

price for purpose again
i need to make some natural stuff dissolve and

abs ethanol, 97.something %. sold as bioethanol stove fuel(same spec as the lab stuff)
vs
lab grade, workshop grade, purple meths etc

no contest on price, and no methanol(major bonus for making and using glazes) in the solvent

i would want to see it through a GLC before i put it in a cocktail, but as a solvent I'm not too bothered that i might go blind after a few mins with the airbrush

owt over 97 with no mention of "denaturing" etc is lab grade abs as far as i care for solvent purposes

having just done a mental stock check on chemical store, it is odd compared to shakenvac or fabreeze
among the odd things i have acquired recently are myrrh and new frankincense for use in the "great gums test"
i know which i prefer

shopping for shellac was quite educational about how to look. for such things the words technical grade reduce the price and improve the choice and quality a lot

ps shellac offered me a huge choice of nail varnish, most of which had never even met a beetle, been there, done that, i got quite good at multi layer water shading and glow in the dark dog claws
not what i needed for this project

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15104

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 23 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

You could also try looking for shellac in odd places like ceramic work. We used to use it to attack alumina substrates to backing so they could be cut with a diamond saw. These low tack plastics of the right tackiness came along and superceded that, which was a good thing as it was a brute to remove every last trace so the substrate could be used for microelectronics.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 23 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

the shellac i found, good price and the correct grade, was listed as technical grade and marketed at french polishers

a similar spec marketed at "artists" is about 20 times the price per kilo

the "biofuel" is about a tenth of the price of "lab grade" with a similar spec

at a rough guess, buying "art" materials costs about ten times as much as buying the material you need for art things by seeking the stuff being sold for more mundane purposes, such as food additives or "biofuel" for your delightful table-top fireplace (those look really daft and more than a little problematic on safety grounds)

gz



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8362
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 23 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

You might find shellac in a bike shop where track riders go..some still use shellac to stick tubular tyres on for Velodrome riding.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 23 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

ps , pigments are pigments, if it is the right pigment the price is just one of those things
however it is possible to find a better pigment that might be far cheaper
it will still be daft expensive per gram

this is a matter of deep shopping until you find something suitable, if you do keep looking as there is a better choice out there somewhere

for example, i got some half decent ink made from oil soot for about £7 for a stick. a reasonable value price
the pine soot ink was two sticks for £5 and is awesome good quality, frugal shopping bargain, if i had tried this in a shop i would have paid far more for it

sometimes the £5 "bargain" is £1 rubbish, i can live with that occasionally if most of the time i get good value stuff that covers that wastage manyfold in an average shopping basket

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 23 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

gz wrote:
You might find shellac in a bike shop where track riders go..some still use shellac to stick tubular tyres on for Velodrome riding.


i wonder where they get theirs? i spose the "stickyness" is more important than colour for tyres to rims fixing

the different types have assorted colours, they also have different chemical and physical characteristics
dewaxed is very different not dewaxed etc, colour is from almost invisible in a thin varnish to dark red with a few layers using different types

the solvents and method of making gum or varnish alter the properties of the product

ambient conditions, especially temp and humidity, have a huge effect on how the stuff behaves

i only need mine to hold pigments in place on a page for as long as possible, bikers need to hold the tyre on the rim while extreme riding and be able to get if off tidily when replacing it

metal to rubber is always a challenge, they move differently
all the materials in my task move differently, until i stick em in place
fun this stuff
crossover of materials is fascinating

if i decide i need "fish glue" i will not be in an art shop, brewers isinglass is swim bladder glue if you mix it thickly

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 23 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

2 gm dewaxed blond shellac
10 gm 97% "bioethanol"

gives a roughly 25% wt vol cut

very nice, it worked over quite delicate water and gum based paints without them moving around, it enhances colours and shiny bits

im rather pleased with it, i can mix enough for a week or two and reduce waste(the stuff does not keep more than a few months), it seems to have good properties and it is a fraction of the price of "artist's shellac varnish"

the gesso thing is a bit more urgent and the artists stuff works for my purpose, i am trying a similar product different firm for half the price
it takes quite a lot to give a deep, flexible, workable surface on decent paper

to make this stuff i would need to learn about different acrylic glues that could be used as the binder etc(old style grosso and sotile with bunny boiling, poison and few weeks prep, i can do, probably a bad idea )

for the mo gesso that does what i want it to is in the same basket as the right pigments

PS the shellac varnish works as a single well applied and feathered coat, in multiple layers, done properly, it would do french polishing or lacquer work very well

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 23 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

the shellac is shiny dry with no tack

i got brave, folded it onto the prepped page next to it and popped in the book cover

if it does not stick the pages together, it is a great addition to the paintbox

if it does, it would still be good on single sheet work

ps it drops the white ground to a pale flake white rather than the bright white of the tio2 in the gesso
i like that it looks like lead white, but it is rather less toxic
it is possible to scrape back the shellac for that extra white look that tio2 gives

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 23 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

ha ha ha ha

no stickyness

and far better value than when sold as 75ml mixed in a bottle by an artist's materials supplier

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44470
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 23 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

delete, oops, post
rather than data drop

yellow mountain, pine soot, ink stick

that should get you to Amazon for the last of the 8 pairs of these

a fraction of the price of most top quality carbon pigments

now i have one to use and 3 in store, go hunting if you need ink or black paint

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